Shadow of Electrum he/him Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 I'm rereading the Stormlight archive, or rather relistening to prepare for the release of Stormlight 5. I thought I had an ok grasp of how the surges worked, but surge of transformation seems to be throwing me off. Specifically, the interactions between the mental and physical realms is throwing me off, as the surge of transformation seems to interact with it more than other surges, except maybe transportation. Why does using transformation require the user to partially enter shadesmar, where other surges seem to have a more direct effect on the physical realm? Additionally, why was Jasnah able to transform those two robbers simultaneously from a distance if requires arguing with their mental component? These last two questions are kind of tangential, but I'm also confused why the smoke stone Jasnah pulled Stormlight from cracked after it was used, and why traveling to shadesmar is considered an elsecaller attribute if lightweavers are also capable of it. As I learn more about the cosmere, the more I realize that Roshar is just really weird. I'm hoping that eventually I'll be able to fit the surges with the rest of my understanding of investiture and the cosmere, as right now it is confusing me the most. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Shadow of Electrum said: Why does using transformation require the user to partially enter shadesmar, where other surges seem to have a more direct effect on the physical realm? Additionally, why was Jasnah able to transform those two robbers simultaneously from a distance if requires arguing with their mental component? These last two questions are kind of tangential, but I'm also confused why the smoke stone Jasnah pulled Stormlight from cracked after it was used why traveling to shadesmar is considered an elsecaller attribute if lightweavers are also capable of it. Since you said this is a re-read, I'll go spoilers off for published material (SA1-4, Novellas 2.5, 3.5) Not so much "entering" Shadesmar (at least not on purpose) as "looking into" Shadesmar to more easily "work" with the Cognitive Aspects of what is being Soulcast (see WoR Prologue [Jasnah], and WoK Ch 45 [Shallan] for accidentally going too far) - also Willshapers, who share the Surge of Transportation can also "peek" into Shadesmar (see RoW Ch 11 [Venli]) There is a difference between normal Soulcasting and forced Soulcasting, and her doing this was foreshadowing that she was Radiant (a Fabrial Caster could not have done this) and that she was experienced in her Surge She forced a change to their spiritweb, which also seems to consume more light. There is much here (and at the Battle of Thaylenah) that is still not fully explained yet though The stone broke because Jasnah rigged it to do so (see below) It's not that only Elsecallers can travel there - it's that they are considered more closely tied to Shadesmar because both of their surges interact with Shadesmar. Lightweavers can go (accidentally) but can't return to the Physical Realm unaided using only Transformation. Willshapers (presumably) can travel in both directions like an Elsecaller, but cannot Soulcast Spoiler Quote Coltonx9 Why do the gems in Jasnah's Soulcaster break when she is using her own ability in the first book? Brandon Sanderson Jasnah is very good at fooling people. Footnote: This may be a mistake. Shallan has also caused gems to crack when Soulcasting in Words of Radiance chapter 7. Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018) WoR Epigraph to Ch 53: Quote As to the other orders that were inferior in this visiting of the far realm of spren, the Elsecallers were prodigiously benevolent, allowing others as auxiliary to their visits and interactions; though they did never relinquish their place as prime liaisons with the great ones of the spren; and the Lightweavers and Willshapers both also had an affinity to the same, though neither were the true masters of that realm Hope that helps Edited March 19 by Treamayne SPAG/Formatting 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 (edited) 1 hour ago, Shadow of Electrum said: Why does using transformation require the user to partially enter shadesmar, where other surges seem to have a more direct effect on the physical realm? Transformation affects the soul itself, which is in the Spiritual Realm. Dalinar can use Bondsmithing to affect the Spiritual Realm as well. Surges are fundamental forces of Cosmere, which is made out of three interconnected realms. Because of that some Surges will be focused more on one Realm than other, because that's its nature. 1 hour ago, Shadow of Electrum said: Additionally, why was Jasnah able to transform those two robbers simultaneously from a distance if requires arguing with their mental component? A mental component of a person is actually just them, what they think. There was no talking there (because that would mean they would be hearing a voice in their head), Jasnah forced change upon them, overcoming the resistance of their souls by using more Stormlight. But Soulcasting at a distance is something that Elsecallers can do, even Lightweavers can learn how to do that, but it's harder for them. Spoiler Questioner Is Jasnah being able to Soulcast at a distance the resonance of her two Surges or is that just a Radiant thing that's not with the fabrials. Brandon Sanderson Jasnah's Order is better at that than others. It is not impossible that you could imagine a Lightweaver being able to do it. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) 1 hour ago, Shadow of Electrum said: I'm also confused why the smoke stone Jasnah pulled Stormlight from cracked after it was used If you draw Stormlight from a gemstone very fast it cracks. That often happens in Soulcasting. That's why it cracked. Spoiler Hut on a Hill One last question, why do gems crack when Stormlight is drawn out of them quickly? Brandon Sanderson When the Stormlight is coming out--you'll notice that there's the slightest physical presence of lots of spren, seons. A lot of this Investiture does have a physical side to it you can feel and that much Stormlight coming through... like when it's leaking out, it is generally going through micro cracks in the structure--where the crystal lattice didn't line up or flaws in the structure--and it coming out quickly like that, it's like hitting it with a hammer from inside along those fault lines. Much less likely to happen based on how good your gemstone is. YouTube Live Fan Mail Opening 1 (Oct. 30, 2021) 1 hour ago, Shadow of Electrum said: why traveling to shadesmar is considered an elsecaller attribute if lightweavers are also capable of it. Transportation is not just about traveling to Shadesmar, it's about traveling as a whole. The Oathgates, that are fabrials using the Surge of Transportation, can move you between two different points in the Physical Realm - like from Urithiru to the Shattered Plains - all without entering Shadesmar. Elsecallers can bring other people into CR, what they are doing is creating a mini-perpendicularity and slip themselves into Shadesmar. Lightweavers can move just themselves, no other people and can't go back. Elsecallers might potentially be able to move between the Physical Realm just like the Oathgates can - the way people from Ashyn came to Roshar was by using a huge non-Rosharan, pre-Radiant Elsecalling to move them all from one planet to the other. It's not that far-fetched to say that Jasnah can do something similar (but not on that scale). Spoiler [...] Brandon Sanderson Okay, he knows, so… We'll move on. *general outcry* Okay, fine. Umm, at the end of Words of Radiance. Argent There has to be one there because Jasnah has to leave somehow, right? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but Honor's Perpendicularity moves. Questioner Woah...so...Highstorm? Brandon Sanderson *makes non-committal noises* Questioner 2 Kind of related to that, I don't know if this is a RAFO kind of question, but you call them perpendicularities, are we going to see this sort of thing created? Could there be, like-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah, perpendicularities can be created. You'd need a lot of Investiture, right? You'd need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini perpendicularity, right? And slips herself into the Cognitive Realm. Questioner 2 So it's just a question of skill, not a question of-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah. It's hard to pull off, but some of the powers are built to do it. Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016) Spoiler Questioner [WoB edited to remove spoilers from Elantris] Brandon Sanderson In fact, we have seen short-range Elsecalling done by… Obviously Elsecalling’s not Bondsmithing, but you know that a Bondsmith powered a big Elsecalling [to migrate from Ashyn], one of the big things you’ve seen a Bondsmith do is get people between planets. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) Edited March 19 by alder24 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Transformation affects the soul itself, which is in the Spiritual Realm. Dalinar can use Bondsmithing to affect the Spiritual Realm as well. Surges are fundamental forces of Cosmere, which is made out of three interconnected realms. Because of that some Surges will be focused more on one Realm than other, because that's its nature. A mental component of a person is actually just them, what they think. There was no talking there (because that would mean they would be hearing a voice in their head), Jasnah forced change upon them, overcoming the resistance of their souls by using more Stormlight. But Soulcasting at a distance is something that Elsecallers can do, even Lightweavers can learn how to do that, but it's harder for them. Reveal hidden contents Questioner Is Jasnah being able to Soulcast at a distance the resonance of her two Surges or is that just a Radiant thing that's not with the fabrials. Brandon Sanderson Jasnah's Order is better at that than others. It is not impossible that you could imagine a Lightweaver being able to do it. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) If you draw Stormlight from a gemstone very fast it cracks. That often happens in Soulcasting. That's why it cracked. Reveal hidden contents Hut on a Hill One last question, why do gems crack when Stormlight is drawn out of them quickly? Brandon Sanderson When the Stormlight is coming out--you'll notice that there's the slightest physical presence of lots of spren, seons. A lot of this Investiture does have a physical side to it you can feel and that much Stormlight coming through... like when it's leaking out, it is generally going through micro cracks in the structure--where the crystal lattice didn't line up or flaws in the structure--and it coming out quickly like that, it's like hitting it with a hammer from inside along those fault lines. Much less likely to happen based on how good your gemstone is. YouTube Live Fan Mail Opening 1 (Oct. 30, 2021) Transportation is not just about traveling to Shadesmar, it's about traveling as a whole. The Oathgates, that are fabrials using the Surge of Transportation, can move you between two different points in the Physical Realm - like from Urithiru to the Shattered Plains - all without entering Shadesmar. Elsecallers can bring other people into CR, what they are doing is creating a mini-perpendicularity and slip themselves into Shadesmar. Lightweavers can move just themselves, no other people and can't go back. Elsecallers might potentially be able to move between the Physical Realm just like the Oathgates can - the way people from Ashyn came to Roshar was by using a huge non-Rosharan, pre-Radiant Elsecalling to move them all from one planet to the other. It's not that far-fetched to say that Jasnah can do something similar (but not on that scale). Hide contents [...] Brandon Sanderson Okay, he knows, so… We'll move on. *general outcry* Okay, fine. Umm, at the end of Words of Radiance. Argent There has to be one there because Jasnah has to leave somehow, right? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but Honor's Perpendicularity moves. Questioner Woah...so...Highstorm? Brandon Sanderson *makes non-committal noises* Questioner 2 Kind of related to that, I don't know if this is a RAFO kind of question, but you call them perpendicularities, are we going to see this sort of thing created? Could there be, like-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah, perpendicularities can be created. You'd need a lot of Investiture, right? You'd need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini perpendicularity, right? And slips herself into the Cognitive Realm. Questioner 2 So it's just a question of skill, not a question of-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah. It's hard to pull off, but some of the powers are built to do it. Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016) Hide contents Questioner [WoB edited to remove spoilers from Elantris] Brandon Sanderson In fact, we have seen short-range Elsecalling done by… Obviously Elsecalling’s not Bondsmithing, but you know that a Bondsmith powered a big Elsecalling [to migrate from Ashyn], one of the big things you’ve seen a Bondsmith do is get people between planets. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) Between those WOB's you posted and this one, Elscallers can do proper Spiritual Realm FTL teleportation beyond just utilizing Shadesmar terrain differences, so Site-to-site teleportation should be in their purview. Hard to say if they'd need Bondsmiths to do a 2nd person or if they're just needed for the scale of major population migrations. Quote Questioner You've said previously that the Oathgates don't obey Physical Realm speed of light. Do they obey the speed of light in Shadesmar? Or are they tapping into the Spiritual Realm shenanigans? Brandon Sanderson They're tapping into Spiritual Realm shenanigans. An Elsecaller is capable of creating something that can teleport you faster than the speed of light. Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+hwiles Posted March 21 Report Share Posted March 21 On 3/19/2024 at 1:53 PM, Shadow of Electrum said: I'm rereading the Stormlight archive, or rather relistening to prepare for the release of Stormlight 5. I thought I had an ok grasp of how the surges worked, but surge of transformation seems to be throwing me off. Specifically, the interactions between the mental and physical realms is throwing me off, as the surge of transformation seems to interact with it more than other surges, except maybe transportation. Why does using transformation require the user to partially enter shadesmar, where other surges seem to have a more direct effect on the physical realm? Additionally, why was Jasnah able to transform those two robbers simultaneously from a distance if requires arguing with their mental component? These last two questions are kind of tangential, but I'm also confused why the smoke stone Jasnah pulled Stormlight from cracked after it was used, and why traveling to shadesmar is considered an elsecaller attribute if lightweavers are also capable of it. As I learn more about the cosmere, the more I realize that Roshar is just really weird. I'm hoping that eventually I'll be able to fit the surges with the rest of my understanding of investiture and the cosmere, as right now it is confusing me the most. My understanding is that the power of transformation is closely tied to one's understanding of their target. How does Jasnah transmute mulitple men remotely at once? Easy. She understood them intuitively so well that she doesn't need to argue with their souls; she commands them to change material and they listen. It is famously hard to say no to Jansah. Even priests, kings, and doctors struggle to do it with her. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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