Old Magic

[Knight of Eternal Books]

I was browsing the Coppermind once again and found another topic that I believe is under discussed, Old Magic. 

there are a few examples of it but I'm still confused as to how it works and what exactly it is? The Coppermind said it is "manifestation of Investiture on Roshar that is known to predate spren bonds" but that dosen't exactly answer my questions about where it came from and how it works.

The Example of Old Magic that I did find is the Nightwatcher but even the Nightwatcher is debated as whether or not to have Old Magic because it's simply her Claim to have it not that she actually does. So yeah I'm very confused.

Edited March 18 by Monkey King

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Monkey King said:

I was browsing the Coppermind once again and found another topic that I believe is under discussed, Old Magic. 

there are a few examples of it but I'm still confused as to how it works and what exactly it is? The Coppermind said it is "manifestation of Investiture on Roshar that is known to predate spren bonds" but that dosen't exactly answer my questions about where it came from and how it works.

The Example of Old Magic that I did find is the Nightwatcher but even the Nightwatcher is debated as whether or not to have Old Magic because it's simply her Claim to have it not that she actually does. So yeah I'm very confused.

The Old Magic is what Nightwatcher does - she gives boons and curses to people who come to ask her for something, Dalinar was affected by the Old Magic among a few others (his boon and curse was granted to him by Cultivation directly, but that still is the Old Magic). That's really it.

Spoiler

Questioner

One of your characters wishes for and is given capacity... That is one of my favorite concepts of all the books that I read of yours. Can you talk about the inspiration for that gift of limited and maximum capacity?

Brandon Sanderson

To not give spoilers, there is a character in The Stormlight Archive who has asked the Old Magic, which is a force that kind of has references in things like The Monkey's Paw and what-not, a force that doesn't always give you things exactly the way you want them. And I built, by the way, the Old Magic into The Stormlight Archive because I felt that at a certain point, while I love to do these rule-based magic systems, I wanted there to be a contrast to it... It's kinda like this idea that, yes, modern science and things have explained a lot of stuff, but there's something primal, perhaps, in the past, I don't actually know. But that idea that there's a primal magic that doesn't really adhere to the rules, we can't anticipate it, was really, I felt, vital for me to include so that I didn't overexplain everything in the books.

So, there's a person who asked for capacity. It wanted to be, let's say, strong enough to lift (it's not actually strength, but it's more of an emotional thing) what was coming. That, I feel like, is a very real thing to wish for, right? I have frequently, like... people say "What would you wish for," and I say "The ability to fly," because I would love to be able to fly. But really, if I sit and think about it, capacity, ability, the capacity to hold all of this stuff in my head, would probably be the sort of thing that I would wish for. So this character, in some ways, is giving wish fulfillment for me, because that's what I would maybe ask for if given the opportunity, but even that kind of turns on its head because the Old Magic just doesn't get people in the way that people think they should be gotten.

Footnote: The Monkey's Paw is a story by W. W. Jacobs.
Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

 

Spoiler

swamp-spirit

Is the Old Magic in Shinovar, and is this a result of something to do with Cultivation?

Brandon Sanderson

The Old Magic is at The Valley, which is not in Shinovar, which is… If you've got a book, I'll show you where it is.... Let's see where Issac's wonderful map is, the first big one… Right here. So the Valley's right there. So that's where you go in order to visit the Old Magic.

Footnote: From lunarubato's report: "In the mountain range in central Roshar, south of the Purelake."
Steelheart Portland signing (Oct. 8, 2013)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So in The Stormlight Archive series--

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormlight Archive? How old are you? *laughter* How old are you?

Questioner

Nine.

Brandon Sanderson

Nine?! You're reading The Stormlight Archive? You are awesome! *cheers*

Questioner

So the character Lift, for her powers, why does she have to eat food instead of sucking in--

Brandon Sanderson

So why does Lift have to eat food instead of sucking in Stormlight. So Lift is a really weird one, she visited the Old Magic and asked something very strange. And the Old Magic didn't know how to treat that and answered with something equally strange. So you will eventually see what happened with Lift and things like that but suffice it to say some really weird things are going on with Lift.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

 

[JustQuestin2004]

18 minutes ago, Monkey King said:

I was browsing the Coppermind once again and found another topic that I believe is under discussed, Old Magic. 

there are a few examples of it but I'm still confused as to how it works and what exactly it is? The Coppermind said it is "manifestation of Investiture on Roshar that is known to predate spren bonds" but that dosen't exactly answer my questions about where it came from and how it works.

The Example of Old Magic that I did find is the Nightwatcher but even the Nightwatcher is debated as whether or not to have Old Magic because it's simply her Claim to have it not that she actually does. So yeah I'm very confused.

Short answer is 'we have no storming clue'.

Longer, more meta answer is that Brandon wanted a 'Soft' Magic System that couldn't be easily explained or understood.

[Knight of Eternal Books]

Hmm That would explain why the Coppermind also says "There is more to Old Magic than just boons and curses; however, there is no person currently known to make use of that"

[Dofurion]

5 hours ago, Monkey King said:

Hmm That would explain why the Coppermind also says "There is more to Old Magic than just boons and curses; however, there is no person currently known to make use of that"

That's because it's supposed to have 10 levels and is a "cousin" magic to voidbinding.
Personally I think Brandon backed off about Old Magic being soft, maybe that's what the art invested in involving Whimsy is all about.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Dofurion said:

That's because it's supposed to have 10 levels and is a "cousin" magic to voidbinding.
Personally I think Brandon backed off about Old Magic being soft, maybe that's what the art invested in involving Whimsy is all about.

What's your source that the Old Magic specifically was meant to have 10 "levels" and be related to Voidbinding? I've found nothing. Brandon is always dodgy about the amount of magic systems on Roshar, it depends how you count them because there is no nice and clear division between them. Fabrials are one of Rosharan magic systems and the Old Magis is "its own weird thing," which sounds like it was always meant to be separate from all this binding. 

Spoiler

Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

 

Spoiler

rags

You have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 Surgebindings and 10 Voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it.

Brandon Sanderson

Fabrials are part of it.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

 

[Dofurion]

14 minutes ago, alder24 said:

What's your source that the Old Magic specifically was meant to have 10 "levels" and be related to Voidbinding?

The Ars Arcanum of RoW.
I don't have the transcript on hand but I just checked it on Copper and it should be there.

Edited March 18 by Dofurion

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

The Ars Arcanum of RoW.
I don't have the transcript on hand but I just checked it on Copper and it should be there.

Oh right, but Khriss suspects the Old Magic is something else entirely, so it would not have ten levels.

Quote

I’m not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can. My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something entirely different.