strmblsd he/him Posted March 13, 2024 Posted March 13, 2024 personally i think hemalurgy is good... if used correctly. i believe the best way is when a allomancer/feruchemist is very old and dying they get spiked killing them but letting their power live on... just like passing breaths down from generations. what is your oppinions on hemalurgy.
+Lewis Nethur He/Him Posted March 13, 2024 Posted March 13, 2024 9 minutes ago, strmblsd said: personally i think hemalurgy is good... if used correctly. i believe the best way is when a allomancer/feruchemist is very old and dying they get spiked killing them but letting their power live on... just like passing breaths down from generations. what is your oppinions on hemalurgy. Well...it effects their transition through the cognitive realm upon death, so it's technically possible that it harms them permanently and unendingly in the Beyond, which would make it the most evil and deplorable magic system imaginable in my opinion, but that shall never be confirmed or ruled out... So, assuming that isn't the case, or someone figures out a way to dig powers out of corpses of magic users so the souls are not damaged permanently (which is probably impossible), or only the most deviant criminals get harvested...I suppose scadrians might use it for war and deterence. It's hard to imagine a society running on hemalurgy if they didn't have to. 3
Aeternum Posted March 13, 2024 Posted March 13, 2024 15 minutes ago, strmblsd said: personally i think hemalurgy is good... if used correctly. i believe the best way is when a allomancer/feruchemist is very old and dying they get spiked killing them but letting their power live on... just like passing breaths down from generations. what is your oppinions on hemalurgy. I like stabbing people with spikes too I do agree with what you said, though. Perhaps if it was more consentual? 2
strmblsd he/him Posted March 13, 2024 Author Posted March 13, 2024 Just now, Aeternum said: I like stabbing people with spikes too I do agree with what you said, though. Perhaps if it was more consentual? Exactly it would allow scadrial to get the most out of its systems of magic. Just like how the breaths can be passed down to save them. And I like the more consensual thing. It just sorta makes sense that this might start happening in the cosmere.
alder24 Posted March 13, 2024 Posted March 13, 2024 15 minutes ago, strmblsd said: personally i think hemalurgy is good... if used correctly. i believe the best way is when a allomancer/feruchemist is very old and dying they get spiked killing them but letting their power live on... just like passing breaths down from generations. what is your oppinions on hemalurgy. Ruin isn't a Shard of evil, Hemalurgy intrinsically isn't evil, but it is dangerous. Sure, what you proposed it's one of the most moral and practical ways to use Hemalurgy, but what about recipients? Every spike you take cracks your soul, it hurts you, it damages you, inching your mentality ever closer to insanity. Hemalurgy isn't dangerous to others, it's dangerous to you as well. Hemalurgy always hurts. What do you value more: your mental health, or fancy powers covered in blood? 5 minutes ago, hwiles said: Well...it effects their transition through the cognitive realm upon death, so it's technically possible that it harms them permanently and unendingly in the Beyond, which would make it the most evil and deplorable magic system imaginable in my opinion, but that shall never be confirmed or ruled out... Yup, here is WoB on this: Spoiler Lady Radagu Does being the donor of a Hemalurgic spike have any implications for your afterlife? Or how about the recipient? Brandon Sanderson That is actually going to depend on-- Okay. Yes it has implications for the afterlife. Yes. Lady Radagu Okay so are there a bunch of Scadrian souls wandering the afterlife with holes in their personalities or memory or identity? Or some with extra parts tacked on? Brandon Sanderson So it has implications, but they are not exactly ones that you are assuming. So in the cosmere there is "dead" and "mostly dead". Okay? And this has been shown several times so once someone dies there is a period before they transition. Sazed talks about this in Mistborn 3. And so most of the implications are for before transition. Does that make sense? Post-transition you are going to have to ask the philosophers and the theologians who are the ones that talk about that. So there is an afterlife and an after-afterlife. Not as many implications for after-afterlife. Middle? Yes. Okay? Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015) 2
HSuperLee Posted March 13, 2024 Posted March 13, 2024 I don't agree with the idea that "power" is a completely neutral concept and morality depends on how it is used. I believe its possible for some powers to be innately good or innately bad. You may be able to use bad powers for a good outcome, and maybe you can even use good powers for a bad outcome, but in the end, some powers have a morality implicitly associated with their use. A deal with the devil is an evil action, even if you sell your soul to heal someone else. I'm not completely convinced that Hemalurgy is an innately evil power, but I do think it is close to being one. The soul is the Cosmere isn't very soul-like, which might be what saves Hemalurgy in the end. If the soul is just another organ, rather than the center of being and the constant miracle, then alteration of the soul is just surgery. As it stands, Hemalurgy is on thin ice in my view, but I'm not ready to completely condemn it. Yet. 3
Trusk'our he/him Posted March 13, 2024 Posted March 13, 2024 1 hour ago, strmblsd said: personally i think hemalurgy is good... if used correctly. i believe the best way is when a allomancer/feruchemist is very old and dying they get spiked killing them but letting their power live on... just like passing breaths down from generations. what is your oppinions on hemalurgy. I don't think it's evil inherently, though due to its nature evil people will be more likely to use it and abuse it for personal gain, usually to the direct detriment of others' wellbeing. Wax, Wayne, Marsh, and (most of) the Kandra use Hemalurgy in good ways, Spook and Kelsier may have, but the Steel Inquisition and the Set have definitely not. My end opinion is that Hemalurgy can be used for good, especially once safer methods are developed (such as regeneration lost Spiritweb fragments for donors or possibly finding ways to counteract or directly reduce the damage done to the recipient of the spikes), but realistically it's more often than not going to be used for evil. I do think that if a person wanted to donate their power for a cause using Hemalurgy that it would be noble (depending on the cause, of course) and it would not be a bad idea overall.
+Lewis Nethur He/Him Posted March 13, 2024 Posted March 13, 2024 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Ruin isn't a Shard of evil, Hemalurgy intrinsically isn't evil, but it is dangerous. Sure, what you proposed it's one of the most moral and practical ways to use Hemalurgy, but what about recipients? Every spike you take cracks your soul, it hurts you, it damages you, inching your mentality ever closer to insanity. Hemalurgy isn't dangerous to others, it's dangerous to you as well. Hemalurgy always hurts. What do you value more: your mental health, or fancy powers covered in blood? Yup, here is WoB on this: Hide contents Lady Radagu Does being the donor of a Hemalurgic spike have any implications for your afterlife? Or how about the recipient? Brandon Sanderson That is actually going to depend on-- Okay. Yes it has implications for the afterlife. Yes. Lady Radagu Okay so are there a bunch of Scadrian souls wandering the afterlife with holes in their personalities or memory or identity? Or some with extra parts tacked on? Brandon Sanderson So it has implications, but they are not exactly ones that you are assuming. So in the cosmere there is "dead" and "mostly dead". Okay? And this has been shown several times so once someone dies there is a period before they transition. Sazed talks about this in Mistborn 3. And so most of the implications are for before transition. Does that make sense? Post-transition you are going to have to ask the philosophers and the theologians who are the ones that talk about that. So there is an afterlife and an after-afterlife. Not as many implications for after-afterlife. Middle? Yes. Okay? Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015) That last wob helps a lot. Also, if memory serves, gold compounders are supposed to be able to take a Hemalurgic spike to the chest and regrow their soul after, so...there's at least one application where hemalurgy is...moral but also sadistic and probably dangerous for society in general of over leveraged: making and duplicating gold compounders...
alder24 Posted March 13, 2024 Posted March 13, 2024 2 minutes ago, hwiles said: Also, if memory serves, gold compounders are supposed to be able to take a Hemalurgic spike to the chest and regrow their soul after, so...there's at least one application where hemalurgy is...moral but also sadistic and probably dangerous for society in general of over leveraged: making and duplicating gold compounders... Oh yes, the famous moral spike factory! Spoiler HazelCharm47 Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy. Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity. However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place. If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess Brandon Sanderson I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike. Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic. Hope that's a little more clear. That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely. I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn. HazelCharm47 As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways WoB #1: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434 This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal. WoB #2: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983 This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one! WoB #3: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335 This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him. WoB #4: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435 Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked. Brandon Sanderson Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out. I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory. If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture. General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 6, 2020) 2
Duxredux he/him Posted March 13, 2024 Posted March 13, 2024 (edited) 3 hours ago, HSuperLee said: I don't agree with the idea that "power" is a completely neutral concept and morality depends on how it is used. I believe its possible for some powers to be innately good or innately bad. You may be able to use bad powers for a good outcome, and maybe you can even use good powers for a bad outcome, but in the end, some powers have a morality implicitly associated with their use. A deal with the devil is an evil action, even if you sell your soul to heal someone else. I'm not completely convinced that Hemalurgy is an innately evil power, but I do think it is close to being one. The soul is the Cosmere isn't very soul-like, which might be what saves Hemalurgy in the end. If the soul is just another organ, rather than the center of being and the constant miracle, then alteration of the soul is just surgery. As it stands, Hemalurgy is on thin ice in my view, but I'm not ready to completely condemn it. Yet. Agreed, I've seen similar concepts with the idea that tools don't have morality where sure, a hammer can be used for good and bad, but it's really hard to find a purely morally positive use for tools like thumbscrews or the rack. The effect of what those torture implements do to the user and target are troubling at best - and I can see Hemalurgy fitting the same category. I fully believe that the existence of certain inventions, and the minds that devised them, have made the world a worse place. The thing is, I'm not sure the policies necessary to prohibit or eliminate such minds and inventions aren't similarly damaging. There's not an easy answer. I... think I can't absolutely prohibit the use of Hemalurgy, because there are scenarios where having someone with the enhancements available only through Hemalurgy could have incredibly far-reaching effects. I think the vast majority of people would praise Wax and Wayne for spiking themselves at the end of TLM to save two cities - but really wish the Set hadn't created the spikes in the first place or deployed a bomb possibly unintentionally resorting to MAD (mutually assured destruction). The way I look at this is very similar to how Dalinar views the Codes in WoK I think. He tries so hard to live the Codes hoping that others will do the same and in the end concludes that the Codes only works with a people who have a minimum threshold of morality and proceeds to force the Highprinces into compliance. Because of the realities of a world with so many terrible possibilites, I can't fully reject the possible necessity of Hemalurgy - even though the existence and use of Hemalurgy often can create those terrible possibilities. A similar analogy is the differences between regular subsonic flight and supersonic flight. If anyone wants to do a random Wikipedia dive, the SR-71 Blackbird is a marvel of engineering and breaks so many rules of conventional subsonic aerodynamics. It has corrugated wing surfaces, it doesn't have an airfoil shape, and you can't wash the hull with regular tap water - all because if had a Cessna's design the wings would melt or tear off from the drag. It's okay if the rules change based on the changes to the thresholds and conditions of the environment... to a point, that's not a blanket statement. So... it may be the wrong move, but I'm not sure if I could fault Scadrial for maintaining and developing Hemalurgy (hopefully though as moral practices as possible) even though it's likely to escalate the conflict when Autonomy already almost got them nuked when presumably most of the planet is unaware and nonaggressive to other planets. Scadrial has not been getting warning shots here. (greater Cosmere spoilers) Spoiler For that matter, if the cards had fallen differently for Honor and Taln, Rayse could already be knocking on Scadrial's door with an army of Fused to wipe them out and splinter their Shards. Edited March 13, 2024 by Duxredux Forgot the spoiler, thanks Treamayne 1
+Lewis Nethur He/Him Posted March 13, 2024 Posted March 13, 2024 4 hours ago, alder24 said: Oh yes, the famous moral spike factory! Hide contents HazelCharm47 Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy. Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity. However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place. If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess Brandon Sanderson I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike. Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic. Hope that's a little more clear. That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely. I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn. HazelCharm47 As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways WoB #1: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434 This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal. WoB #2: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983 This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one! WoB #3: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335 This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him. WoB #4: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435 Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked. Brandon Sanderson Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out. I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory. If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture. General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 6, 2020) Heh. Honestly, the set would have to pay and entertain a double-golder so much, it probably wouldn't look moral to anyone who knew how it worked. Scadrial would have the best hospitals anywhere outside of Roshar though.
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