Unmade are the Heralds spren?

[Unholy Truth]

Most of this topic is all RAFO stuff but it does seem like this would fill in some holes as well help explain the herald's madness. Ishar's "experiments" would make a little more sense at least in his motivation. Taravangian before taking up the shard also believed the unmade were previously spren and I can't remember the exact WOB but I believe it was unclear whether spren would return to braize after a heralds "death." 

Would love to hear some other thoughts on this.

[listerfeend]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

But as you said, Shallan isn't an expert. It's possible that Re-Shephir isn't looking specifically for her lost humanity, but rather for her lost cognition, as for example she used to be a sentient Splinter for example. A person, but not a human. 

That's fair, but...Re-Shephir is already cognizant is she not? So maybe she had lost memories or something like that, but cognition doesn't seem to be something she lacks, more like an understanding of what it is to be human. This bit has been interesting to me for a while now, because it seems to indicate that, at the very least, she used to be a living thing, rather than a spren. I suspect, instead of human, she could have been a Listener long ago. Or maybe she was bonded to someone in the past? That would sort of fit with what we know of spren and their connection to living beings. Specifically, Syl relates more and more to human emotions as her bond strengthens, Stormfather begins to at least feel remorse for the things and people the Highstorm destroys, despite how inevitable it feels to him. Maybe Re-Shephir was bonded to a Listener or a Radiant at some point?

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

That's fair, but...Re-Shephir is already cognizant is she not? So maybe she had lost memories or something like that, but cognition doesn't seem to be something she lacks, more like an understanding of what it is to be human.

She is lacking it. She isn't fully sentient, she isn't as intelligent as humans are. She is more like an animal, driven by her instincts. OB ch 30:

Quote

This spren was not completely aware, not completely cognizant. She was a creation of instinct and alien curiosity, drawn to violence and pain like scavengers to the scent of blood.

 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

On 3/9/2024 at 2:13 PM, alder24 said:

The more intelligent they get the harder it is to connect them to some ideas (the same can be said about the Sibling and Nightwatcher).

I dont think so. Sibling and Nightwatcher seem pretty cut and dry.

 

The Sibling is the tower, and all that the tower represents. Safety, dignity - the fight of the Radiants. The Sibling represents the 'marriage' of Honor and Cultivation in their fight against Odium. 

 

The Nightwatcher represents Cultivation, in the same way that the Stormfather represents Honor. She is the extension of Cultivations hand, independent yes, but acting as a sort of executive branch for Cultivation. She represents the idea of Cultivation that humanity has (since Cultivation shaped her into that). You go to the Nightwatcher, get what you wanted most, but also must learn to live with a curse - creating personal growth. 

 

I think that its clear the Unmade represented something else before they were unmade. I have a theory that the unmaking of the unmade is a big part of the destruction of Honor. My theory is that the Unmade were created by Honor to fulfill certain roles on Roshar. When Odium unmade these massive splinters of Honor (bo-ado is extremely invested) this was the 'poisoning' of Honor that we see. After that he faded into death. To support this theory I will be coming up with the true representations of the unmade before they were unmade. There is a wob somewhere that Ado would not have allowed sapient spren, so I think we can be safe in assuming they are creations of Honor. If Odium had made them, they would not be unmade.

 

Thrill - Honorable Battle (dueling, defending your honor, etc)

Midnight Mother - Spren of the idea of spren in the first place. The representation of spren existing / forming

Ashertmarn - Spren of Feasting / Honorable celebration

Yelig-nar - Spren of the surges

Bo-ado - Spren of Connection

Sja-anat - Spren of Information / Study 

Moelach - Spren of Spirituality

we dont know much about the others....

 

Thoughts?

 

Edit: thought i should expand on some points. When i mean that yelig-nar is the spren of the surges, I mean something akin to Honor created this spren to be the force / entity that restricts the surges. We know that Honor placed limitations, and he cant personally attend to everything all the time. I think this sprens existence tied the surges into what they are today. Ishar created the Radiant structure, but the actual restrictions on the surges themselves was done by honor through yelig. For Moelach, we know that future sight is seen as evil to vorinism. I think that before his unmaking, this was not the case. Moelach represented the spirituality of roshar. The prayer, faith, and spiritual connection of an entire peoples.

Edited March 11 by CtrlAltDepressed

[listerfeend]

42 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

We know that Honor placed limitations, and he cant personally attend to everything all the time.

The only thing I have about this is...I mean, he could attend everything all the time...that's kind of the whole thing with Shards...They aren't entirely omnipresent, but they sort of are, at least in their domain. I still overall think this is a pretty good theory..though I do wonder at the existence of only 9, when everything else Honor did was ten based. There are 10 days, 10 Gas Giants, 10 Heralds, 10 Surges....1010101010101010101010 

 

[alder24]

46 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I dont think so. Sibling and Nightwatcher seem pretty cut and dry.

 

The Sibling is the tower, and all that the tower represents. Safety, dignity - the fight of the Radiants. The Sibling represents the 'marriage' of Honor and Cultivation in their fight against Odium. 

You said it yourself, those are very vague and broad ideas. Multiple ideas. Windspren is just about wind. Fearspren is about fear. The Sibling, the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher aren't like that, they represent more.

46 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

She represents the idea of Cultivation that humanity has (since Cultivation shaped her into that).

Very much untrue. Cultivation specifically made her to be independent from people's perception and to grow on her own. We know next to nothing about the Nightwatcher. It's hard to say what she represents as a spren.

46 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I have a theory that the unmaking of the unmade is a big part of the destruction of Honor. My theory is that the Unmade were created by Honor to fulfill certain roles on Roshar. When Odium unmade these massive splinters of Honor (bo-ado is extremely invested) this was the 'poisoning' of Honor that we see. After that he faded into death.

Poisoning of Honor? Not really, Honor was just Splintered in the direct clash with Odium. It just took him some time to die afterwards. Splinters are separate from Honor, they are independent. Corrupting Splinters won't affect Honor.

Unmade combined are less invested than the Stormfather. They are big Splinters, but individually much smaller than the Stormfather.

Spoiler

Questioner

You've previously said that Nightblood is the most powerful non-Shardic being in the Cosmere. Is he more powerful than the Unmade or Stormfather in terms of raw Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Raw Investiture? Here's the thing, when you say powerful, it can mean lots of different things. More raw Investiture than the Stormfather... probably not. Than the Unmade, probably. I would have to look, I don't have the numbers on this. But the Stormfather is very restricted in what he can do.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

46 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

If Odium had made them, they would not be unmade.

They are still Odium's Splinters. They are made of his power. It's not that crystal clear.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1) The Nightwatcher and Stormfather are parallel entities such that Nighwatcher:Cultivation :: Stormfather:Honor.

2) There is sort of a parallel for Odium, but the parallel is the various Unmade instead of a single entity.

3) They are parallel in that they are all Splinters.

4) The Unmade are voluntary Splinters, because Odium ("like almost all of the other Shards") voluntarily Splintered part of it's power.

5) The Stormfather is different from the others because it's a Sliver.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

46 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Midnight Mother - Spren of the idea of spren in the first place. The representation of spren existing / forming

I don't think there is anything like that. There is no such a thing like an idea of table, there is no such a thing like an idea of spren, they just are. 

Spoiler

MoriWillow

In the Spiritual Realm, does there exist an ideal of tables that is a separate entity from the spiritwebs of all extant tables? If so, did that ideal always exist, even before the invention of tables? Or was it born out of the people inventing tables?

Brandon Sanderson

The answer is no. This is where we diverge from Plato’s Theory of the Forms. Again, Theory of the Forms was a conceptual benchmark for me. I thought the Theory of the Forms was awesome, and it stuck in my head for many years and eventually gave birth to Cognitive, Spiritual, and Physical. (The first book really delving into that being Dragonsteel Prime, and it’s in the opening chapters of Dragonsteel Prime.)

But where it differs is: there is not a Platonic idea of a table in the cosmere. All ideals in the cosmere are filtered through the perception of sapient beings.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 6 (Dec. 19, 2023)

 

46 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

When i mean that yelig-nar is the spren of the surges, I mean something akin to Honor created this spren to be the force / entity that restricts the surges. We know that Honor placed limitations, and he cant personally attend to everything all the time. I think this sprens existence tied the surges into what they are today. Ishar created the Radiant structure, but the actual restrictions on the surges themselves was done by honor through yelig.

Then those restrictions would have disappeared when Yelig-Nar was unmade. Yelig-Nar has existed at least since Nohadon's times, that' before the 6th Epoch, very early in Rosharan history - before Radiants were even created.

 

Edit:

2 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

I do wonder at the existence of only 9, when everything else Honor did was ten based. There are 10 days, 10 Gas Giants, 10 Heralds, 10 Surges....1010101010101010101010 

Easy fix, the Stormfather would be the 10th.

Edited March 11 by alder24

[CtrlAltDepressed]

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Then those restrictions would have disappeared when Yelig-Nar was unmade.

I disagree. I subscribe to the theory that a part of the Heralds madness is due to Bo-Ado being trapped. Kalak mentions that they did a massive amount of damage when they trapped her (beyond just the parshmen). We know that deadeyes did not happen until she was trapped. She filled a vital role of Roshar, and that role was not stopped until she was trapped, not when she was unmade. 

 

Creating an unmade (as seen in ROW with Sibling) is an additive process, not subtractive. What I mean is that Raboniel was pumping voidlight into the Sibling, not taking towerlight out. We can assume the other unmade are the same. Odium pumped so much of his investiture into the spren that their intent / purpose becomes warped through the lens of Odiums Intent.

 

If Raboniel had been successful in unmaking the Sibling, I dont think Urithiru would blink out of existence. It would all still exist, but its steward would be skewed through the intent of Odium instead of Cultivation and Honor. That would mean a lot of things, but the Siblings function as the tower would still exist.

 

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Easy fix, the Stormfather would be the 10th.

Agreed. 

 

Edited March 11 by CtrlAltDepressed

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I disagree. I subscribe to the theory that a part of the Heralds madness is due to Bo-Ado being trapped.

Disagree. They show signs of insanity even during prelude. Fused are insane and are getting more insane with each death. The main reason is that they lived far too long while being tortured:

Spoiler

Questioner

Why or how are the Heralds the only ones we've seen so far that are affected by magical maladies due to either their high Investiture or long lives?

Brandon Sanderson

I would argue the Fused are having the same situation, so they're not the only ones. The why and how... there's a whole host of things going on here. Like a lot of physical and mental illness, it's not one thing or the other. But it is a compound of other things.

One is going so long without certain protections that you kind of need to take. The human being's soul might be immortal, depending on your argument in the cosmere. (That's really up to you.) But they certainly aren't meant for thousands of years of existence, the same way that our bodies aren't. There's some of that.

There's some of the things they've been through. Like, legit trauma; this is not all simply a magical ailment. You've got people with PTSD, layers of PTSD on top of layers of PTSD, for thousands of years, bearing things that no human being without their level of Investiture would even be able to bear. You've got that manifestation, you've got their own sense of guilt.

And these things are all just kind of overlapping together with the fact they've been alive for so, so very long. And a lot of the people that you've seen otherwise have not been alive nearly... orders of magnitude more for the Heralds. The only people you've seen that are that old are: some of the dragons, Hoid, and Vessels of various Shards. And you're basically at that group. And this is a group who knows what they're doing. Either they were built like the dragons, this is part of their innate nature, that they are functionally immortal. Or you are getting the Shards. Or you're getting people that are 300 years old, which is a very different thing, cosmere-wise, than having lived for thousands and thousands of years, part of it being torture.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

9 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Kalak mentions that they did a massive amount of damage when they trapped her (beyond just the parshmen). We know that deadeyes did not happen until she was trapped. She filled a vital role of Roshar, and that role was not stopped until she was trapped, not when she was unmade. 

That role was literally removed from Roshar. Just as your examples show, if Yelig-Nar had a role like you proposed, it would cease to work once he became an Unmade. 

10 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Creating an unmade (as seen in ROW with Sibling) is an additive process, not subtractive. What I mean is that Raboniel was pumping voidlight into the Sibling, not taking towerlight out. We can assume the other unmade are the same. Odium pumped so much of his investiture into the spren that their intent / purpose becomes warped through the lens of Odiums Intent.

Unmaking kills the original entity. 

20 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

If Raboniel had been successful in unmaking the Sibling, I dont think Urithiru would blink out of existence. It would all still exist, but its steward would be skewed through the intent of Odium instead of Cultivation and Honor. That would mean a lot of things, but the Siblings function as the tower would still exist.

I'm not saying they would disappear but they would be killed, their souls would be twisted and changed, their Connection to Shards broken. Yelig-Nar would not work to restrict Surges anymore as he isn't that spren anymore. 

[listerfeend]

21 hours ago, alder24 said:

That role was literally removed from Roshar. Just as your examples show, if Yelig-Nar had a role like you proposed, it would cease to work once he became an Unmade. 

I think that this is maybe a misunderstanding of what the "theory" here is? Because, if I'm reading things correctly, the idea is that the Unmade, before being Unmade, served a vital function in the operations of the Planet Roshar. You say that they would cease to perform those functions once being Unmade, but CtrlAltDepressed is saying that they would have continued to serve those functions Post-Unmaking, though perhaps that function would have been twisted slightly, depending on the function itself, and would only cease to fulfill those functions (twisted or not) after being trapped. 

I'm not really sure I completely buy into the theory. As you stated, the Heralds were already showing some signs of their insanity in the very first prelude, when we witnessed Aharietiam, which means, presumably, that even with Honor alive, there were no real protections in place for the Heralds facing this type of immortality. Which is rather interesting.

So, I guess this leaves me with a pretty burning question... How, in Ado's name, was Ba-Ado-Mishram able to Connect to all the Listeners, and provide them Voidlight. And why did trapping her cause the Spren to deadeye? 

I had a thought that maybe she had "hacked" into the system, basically making herself a super user, and then ripping out that super user caused some serious glitches in the system, but... While I was writing that, I had a different thought...

We know that a consequence of her Binding was that the Sibling stopped being able to produce Towerlight en masse. Navani hypothesizes that, at the time of the Binding, Odium's tone became a Tone of Roshar. This, to me, seems to be the time when Odium became "fully" Invested in Roshar. We know Rod was reluctant to fully invest himself anywhere. I believe that, prior to the Binding of BAM and while still trapped in the system, he managed to avoid complete investment. He probably was at least a bit Invested, but not enough for him to worry about leaving that behind, or ripping out when he left. 

It's unclear whether BAM started the False Desolation at Odium's behest, or behind his back, but the fact that she was able to provide Voidlight indicates, to me, that at the very least it required a pretty hefty Connection to Odium. Maybe the severing of that Connection caused it to snap into place on Roshar, Investing Odium enough that his officially became a Tone of Roshar, sort of drowning out, or mixing with, Honor's to the point that it would cause the Deadeye phenomenon that wasn't there before? 

I don't know if any of this holds up, or even makes sense...I JUST WANT IT ALL TO MAKE SENSE!!!! I suspect we'll get some more information about all this in the next book...at least I really hope so..I don't want to wait a decade for more answers!!!!!

Edited March 12 by listerfeend
grammar

[CtrlAltDepressed]

On 3/11/2024 at 11:47 AM, alder24 said:

Disagree. They show signs of insanity even during prelude. Fused are insane and are getting more insane with each death. The main reason is that they lived far too long while being tortured:

We know for a fact that there are ways to survive for even longer than the heralds have without the insanity (hoid). I find it unlikely that Honor would not forsee the issues that his heralds would face, and not put it in something to help with the issue. My theory (i dont think i invented it) is that BAM was facilitating the transfer of souls to / from the SR / CR / various planets. Whenever a herald dies they are immediately sent to either braize or roshar. When BAM was trapped this transfer was damaged / altered in such a way that the heralds lose a piece of their memory / self every time they are transferred. 

 

I think if we compare this with the deadeyes it makes a lot of sense. When the radiant breaks their oaths it should send the spren fully back to the CR (instead of mostly in PR like syl) which is practically the same thing as transferring a soul from the physical realm of roshar to the cognitive realm of braize. Since BAM is trapped, that transfer is not fully completed, and only part of the herald or spren is returned where its supposed to go. 

 

Brandon has mentioned that the heralds absolutely have magical madness going on. Yes, they have regular, human whos alive too long madness, but they also are magically afflicted, though I cannot find the wob. We see this magical madness best through Ishar, in my opinion. He is pulling spren into the physical realm, stealing bond with stormfather, etc, and has a moment of sanity when navani bonds the sibling. In fact, they all do. That is when we get our moment with Taln. So i think its pretty clear that there is a magical way to 'fix' the heralds madness or at least remedy it somewhat. 

 

Its not a stretch at all to connect the spren becoming deadeyes with the loss of the heralds memories / self, and we know for a fact that BAM being trapped caused the deadeyes. Therefore, BAM being trapped must also have extremely exacerbated the heralds madness. 

 

edit: i found it

Questioner

The Heralds seem to be insane in the ways of their Divine Attributes, at least somewhat. Is this because they're Heralds? As Cognitive Shadows, they're subject to people's perception, like how spren are?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a very astute question, and yes, that is influencing them quite a bit. I'm doing something here with the Heralds. Like, I want the Heralds "madnesses," as we call them, to be magical diseases. And the contrast of something like Kaladin's depression, which I'm trying to treat very real-world. I'm trying to treat them as these things that couldn't exist in our world. They're fantastical mental diseases, like we have fantastic physical diseases in Elantris. So I did make them thematic, and I would say part of the reason for that is people's perception of them and their mental state reacting against that. And that should be a theme among all of the Heralds.

Edited March 13 by CtrlAltDepressed

[listerfeend]

45 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

When BAM was trapped this transfer was damaged / altered in such a way that the heralds lose a piece of their memory / self every time they are transferred. 

There is an issue with this... BAM wasn't trapped the last time any of them were sent back to Braize, or returned. We could postulate that BAM was serving a similar function for the Heralds as Breaths were for Hoid, essentially, storing the overflow in a source of Investiture, but I find it hard to believe the Heralds wouldn't have known that was the case. We know that at least Nale and Kalak were present for the binding of Mishram, so I somewhat doubt that they wouldn't have at least known the risks involved with that.

 

 

46 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I find it unlikely that Honor would not forsee the issues that his heralds would face, and not put it in something to help with the issue.

This is assuming that Honor, and the Heralds (remember the Oathpact was the Herald's idea, and took place with Honor's blessing), felt this was going to last as long as it did. The Oathpact was essentially a bandaid to get around the fact that Odium provided the Fused with the ability to become CR's to continue fighting. I'm not convinced that they expected there to be the cycle of Returns/Desolations that then followed. 
 

Quote

Questioner

Why or how are the Heralds the only ones we've seen so far that are affected by magical maladies due to either their high Investiture or long lives?

Brandon Sanderson

I would argue the Fused are having the same situation, so they're not the only ones. The why and how... there's a whole host of things going on here. Like a lot of physical and mental illness, it's not one thing or the other. But it is a compound of other things.

One is going so long without certain protections that you kind of need to take. The human being's soul might be immortal, depending on your argument in the cosmere. (That's really up to you.) But they certainly aren't meant for thousands of years of existence, the same way that our bodies aren't. There's some of that.

There's some of the things they've been through. Like, legit trauma; this is not all simply a magical ailment. You've got people with PTSD, layers of PTSD on top of layers of PTSD, for thousands of years, bearing things that no human being without their level of Investiture would even be able to bear. You've got that manifestation, you've got their own sense of guilt.

And these things are all just kind of overlapping together with the fact they've been alive for so, so very long. And a lot of the people that you've seen otherwise have not been alive nearly... orders of magnitude more for the Heralds. The only people you've seen that are that old are: some of the dragons, Hoid, and Vessels of various Shards. And you're basically at that group. And this is a group who knows what they're doing. Either they were built like the dragons, this is part of their innate nature, that they are functionally immortal. Or you are getting the Shards. Or you're getting people that are 300 years old, which is a very different thing, cosmere-wise, than having lived for thousands and thousands of years, part of it being torture.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

And the last thing, reading that WoB indicates to me that the magical madness they are experiencing is due solely to them living so long past their expiration date, and they have other, more "normal" mental maladies going on in the form of PTSD from the thousands of years of torture, as well as the constant cycle of death and resurrection. 

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

We know for a fact that there are ways to survive for even longer than the heralds have without the insanity (hoid).

Yes, but they would need to store and organize their memories somewhere else like Hoid is doing. And avoid torture. Both weren't really possible as their main purpose was to be tortured for eternity. 

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I find it unlikely that Honor would not forsee the issues that his heralds would face, and not put it in something to help with the issue.

They weren't meant to suffer from those issues, they were meant to last on Braize forever, trapping Fused. They had broken their Oath to Honor and let Fused back on Roshar, which is something Honor didn't predict (so why do you think he had to predict they will get insane). Then they broke their word again during Aharietiam, when their mental state was already showing signs of degradation, but wasn't as bad as it is now. They have been alive for 7000 years, 4500 years was away from Honor, after breaking the Oathpact, 2500 years was while fulfilling their Oath, being trapped and tortured on Braize. No matter if Honor was aware or not, this was not meant to happen at all, they weren't meant to break, they weren't meant to cause another Desolation, they weren't meant to abandon the Oathpact.

I doubt they would even be able to use Breaths like Hoid does on Braize - I believe they didn't have bodies there, only their Cognitive forms. That means they can't use invested powers, they can't use Breaths, they can't store memories - not to mention Fused would not allow them to do that as a part of their torture. There was no solution.

OB ch 38:

Quote

HONOR LET THE POWER BLIND HIM TO THE TRUTH—THAT WHILE SPREN AND GODS CANNOT BREAK THEIR OATHS, MEN CAN AND WILL.

 

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

My theory (i dont think i invented it) is that BAM was facilitating the transfer of souls to / from the SR / CR / various planets. Whenever a herald dies they are immediately sent to either braize or roshar. When BAM was trapped this transfer was damaged / altered in such a way that the heralds lose a piece of their memory / self every time they are transferred. 

Not possible. She wasn't trapped back then at Aharietiam, and they were already losing the track of time. It was simply their nature of CS and PTSD accumulated from two and a half millenia of torture. The Oathpact did the transporting - Taln returned fine in WoK despite BAM being trapped. WoK Prelude:

Quote

How long had it been? Centuries, perhaps millennia, of torture. It was so hard to keep track.

 

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I think if we compare this with the deadeyes it makes a lot of sense. When the radiant breaks their oaths it should send the spren fully back to the CR (instead of mostly in PR like syl) which is practically the same thing as transferring a soul from the physical realm of roshar to the cognitive realm of braize. Since BAM is trapped, that transfer is not fully completed, and only part of the herald or spren is returned where its supposed to go. 

Yeah, I don't see it working like that. Spren have no problem transferring back and forth between CR and PR - only breaking their bond with a Radiant is problematic. Breaking the bond rips something from their souls - it's likely that it rips more than just a bond from a spren and combining that with a wound from BAM imprisonment it's too much for a spren. 

It is possible that the reasons no deadeye were made before Recreance was because a Bondsmith was always there to break their bond. There also are ways to safely break a bond before the 5th Ideal, those could have been used too. And apparently what Shallan did with the Testament could have happened in the past. Ultimately we don't have enough information.

Spoiler

Nouf

Was the reason Radiants could safely break oaths before the Recreance, without resulting in deadeyes, because the Bondsmith broke the bond for them?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! Good question!

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

OB ch 108:

Quote

“Regardless,” Kaladin said, “you’re about half a year too late. So you might as well accept it.”
“Not too late. Killing you would free her—though it would be painful for her. There are other ways, at least until the Final Ideal is sworn.”

 

Spoiler

Dr Bonko 360

Is there a difference between the way that Shallan 'broke' her bond with Testament and the way that the rest of the Radiants broke their bonds in the Recreance that allowed Shallan to use Surgebinding between her bonds with Testament and Pattern?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of and kind of not. I mean the thing about it is, some of the things that are happening with Shallan could've happened in the past and probably did, but it's been so long ago that it's not really relevant. So it's less like she's done something super unique and more like things that are happening with Shallan also probably happened—not with everybody but with some—but there's just not record of it and it's not as relevant to the conversation. So, less that she's special and more that this is a possibility. Not giving any confirmations to any specific items, just saying what is happening with Shallan could theoretically have happened in the past and probably did.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Brandon has mentioned that the heralds absolutely have magical madness going on. Yes, they have regular, human whos alive too long madness, but they also are magically afflicted

That's part of their magical madness. It's all in the soul, a human soul is not made to last that long. That and layers of PTSD makes them insane. That's all part of their magical madness. Fused suffer in the same way, for the same reasons (but instead of torture they died much more often than Heralds). Brandon is differentiating Heralds mental state from real life mental issues like depression, PTSD or DID that other characters from SA suffer from. Heralds and all other CS suffer from the same issue - they aren't meant to live for that long. It's not about BAM, it's specifically about their longevity.

Spoiler

Questioner

Why or how are the Heralds the only ones we've seen so far that are affected by magical maladies due to either their high Investiture or long lives?

Brandon Sanderson

I would argue the Fused are having the same situation, so they're not the only ones. The why and how... there's a whole host of things going on here. Like a lot of physical and mental illness, it's not one thing or the other. But it is a compound of other things.

One is going so long without certain protections that you kind of need to take. The human being's soul might be immortal, depending on your argument in the cosmere. (That's really up to you.) But they certainly aren't meant for thousands of years of existence, the same way that our bodies aren't. There's some of that.

There's some of the things they've been through. Like, legit trauma; this is not all simply a magical ailment. You've got people with PTSD, layers of PTSD on top of layers of PTSD, for thousands of years, bearing things that no human being without their level of Investiture would even be able to bear. You've got that manifestation, you've got their own sense of guilt.

And these things are all just kind of overlapping together with the fact they've been alive for so, so very long. And a lot of the people that you've seen otherwise have not been alive nearly... orders of magnitude more for the Heralds. The only people you've seen that are that old are: some of the dragons, Hoid, and Vessels of various Shards. And you're basically at that group. And this is a group who knows what they're doing. Either they were built like the dragons, this is part of their innate nature, that they are functionally immortal. Or you are getting the Shards. Or you're getting people that are 300 years old, which is a very different thing, cosmere-wise, than having lived for thousands and thousands of years, part of it being torture.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

Spoiler

celestialwolf157

By the way, Kaladin's comment on Taln and Shalash's mental health makes me wonder: Are the Ten Fools based on the Heralds after they broke the Oathpact? Having 9 immortal, mentally ill people on Roshar for millenia seems like it'd have spawned some stories that could have eventually become stories of the Ten Fools. Taln wouldn't be included in this, but with Vorinism and the number 10, I imagine they'd have created something to oppose his virtues.

Also, I can't remember if this is confirmed or not, but on the topic of the Heralds' mental health, is it at all supernatural? Taln seemed to recover somewhat when Dalinar summoned the perpendicularity at the end of Oathbringer. So, is it just severe PTSD, or something supernatural is involved?

Brandon Sanderson

I've tried to make it clear in talking about the books that I separate what has happened to the Heralds and normal mental health. What they're suffering from is in large part supernatural--and has to do with the way souls (or Cognitive Shadows) work in the cosmere. So you are correct. This doesn't mean that some normal treatments wouldn't help them, but their core problem has a huge supernatural component.

And yes, there IS a relationship between the ten fools and the Heralds, though people on Roshar wouldn't be able to point it out.

mastapsi

Is the Heralds' madness related to and/or the same thing as the Fused's madness? The Stormfather mentions that each time one of the Fused is reborn, their mind is further damaged. Is it the same with the Herald? To many rebirths, possibly compounded by the fact that they not only often died each Desolation, but were tortured until the next one?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, these two things are related. (There are some hints in Rhythm of War at how Hoid has avoided a similar fate.)

Note that the torture--and the many rebirths--are a big part of this. But their age is also a factor.

3DLightweaver

Does this mean that a certain Cognitive Shadow from the Mistborn series is fated to go insane?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on a lot of factors. But the longer a Cognitive Shadow exists, the more likely these problems are.

dce42

Would this affect the Returned as well? What about those with a lot (like 8,000) breaths since they are not cognitive shadows.

Brandon Sanderson

Returned are Cognitive Shadows. In the Cosmere, there is no way to bring someone back to life, other than normal medical resuscitation, without using a Cognitive Shadow.

Stromeng

What about Dalinar? I thought he has had textbook PTSD, but the screams he continued to hear turned out to be magic.

Brandon Sanderson

Dalinar has a whole host of issues, not easily defined by a single definition. Assume, though, that his mental state is a normal response to, in part, supernatural occurrences.

The different for the Heralds is that they have conditions which could only truly exist in the cosmere, even if some of the manifestations and symptoms are similar to what could happen on Earth.

Stonewalker16

So is that implying that Hoid is a Cognitive Shadow, or is that just an effect of being really really old? Also does Vasher know about/how to avoid these effects? Probably an RAFO, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Come back to that question in about a month or so.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Sept. 8, 2020)

 

 

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

We could postulate that BAM was serving a similar function for the Heralds as Breaths were for Hoid, essentially, storing the overflow in a source of Investiture, but I find it hard to believe the Heralds wouldn't have known that was the case.

No, that's not what was happening. They didn't use anything like this, Hoid made them aware they could do that, RoW ch 84 epigraphs:

Quote

"Midius once told me … told me we could use Investiture … to enhance our minds, our memories, so we wouldn’t forget so much."

 

 

[listerfeend]

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, that's not what was happening. They didn't use anything like this, Hoid made them aware they could do that, RoW ch 84 epigraphs:

That was sort of what I was getting at. We could postulate that, but I don't see it being likely. With your quote, that leads me even more to that not being the case.

[CtrlAltDepressed]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

which is something Honor didn't predict (so why do you think he had to predict they will get insane).

Regardless of wether they are on braize forever or coming back and forth, with your understanding, they would still go insane. If Honor genuinely expected them to be tortured forever, he should have foreseen their insanity issues. An insane person can not be expected to keep oaths or even remember the details of the oath. This doesnt work for me. Either way insanity is an issue that Honor should have forseen.

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

ot possible. She wasn't trapped back then at Aharietiam, and they were already losing the track of time. It was simply their nature of CS and PTSD accumulated from two and a half millenia of torture. The Oathpact did the transporting - Taln returned fine in WoK despite BAM being trapped

Again, its a combination of things. Yes, over the thousands of years they were starting to go insane from ptsd and longevity, but i think its clear that the insanity they suffer currently is much more extreme than that. What i meant by not everything is returned is a spiritual thing rather than physical. Yes Talns body is fully there, that is reformed each time, but his soul, in my theory, would lose a tiny tiny tiny piece every time he is reborn - worsening his state. 

The oathpact does the transporting? Thats an agreement. Its not a 'thing' to do actions. That seems even more far fetched than BAM.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Spren have no problem transferring back and forth between CR and PR - only breaking their bond with a Radiant is problematic. Breaking the bond rips something from their souls - it's likely that it rips more than just a bond from a spren and combining that with a wound from BAM imprisonment it's too much for a spren. 

Thats not entirely accurate. Pattern and Syl both tell us that they lost their memories when they transferred over to bond a Radiant. I would not call that 'no problem'. In my theory this is also due to BAM being gone. Spren should be able to transfer no issue, but trapping BAM has changed / damaged that transition. I think this is also why we see spren lose their memories when they stop being bonded: like the stormfather and sibling. They remember things but they have to work for it - it isnt right at the forefront. 

 

I also did not see you mention the point about the Sibling and Navani. Every herald got a moment of clarity when that happened. The sibling specifically mentions that the trapping of BAM hurt her, and Navani fixed that hurt - leading to their moment of clarity. Even Taln, who is completely gone due to his insanity (didnt even realize he was back on roshar) had a moment of clarity. 

 

Even if that is not related to BAM at all, there is some way to remedy their madness. We are shown it can be done. 
 

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's all in the soul, a human soul is not made to last that long.

The heralds were specifically made to last that long. That was why they were given the power they had / have.

[alder24]

22 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Regardless of wether they are on braize forever or coming back and forth, with your understanding, they would still go insane. If Honor genuinely expected them to be tortured forever, he should have foreseen their insanity issues. An insane person can not be expected to keep oaths or even remember the details of the oath. This doesnt work for me. Either way insanity is an issue that Honor should have forseen.

Insane Taln kept his Oath. The problem was Honor was unable to think a person can ever break their Oath, mad or not, that was not an option in his mind overwhelmed by Honor's intent. But he was proven wrong. 

24 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Again, its a combination of things. Yes, over the thousands of years they were starting to go insane from ptsd and longevity, but i think its clear that the insanity they suffer currently is much more extreme than that.

Because twice as much time has passed.

25 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

What i meant by not everything is returned is a spiritual thing rather than physical. Yes Talns body is fully there, that is reformed each time

I do agree.

26 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

but his soul, in my theory, would lose a tiny tiny tiny piece every time he is reborn - worsening his state. 

Disagree, the Oathpact would facilitate the transfer, drawing investiture directly from Honor. Honor was part of the Oathpact.

Spoiler

luke.spence (paraphrased)

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014)

 

31 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

The oathpact does the transporting? Thats an agreement. Its not a 'thing' to do actions.

It literally binds Fused and Voidbringers to Braize, prevent them from returning imiedietly, sends Heralds between Braize and Roshar, allows them to share pain etc. The Oathpact does stuff. It's forged to function that way, some of those things were intentional, some were probably accidental. OB ch 38:

Quote

THEIR OATHPACT DELAYED THE FUSED FROM RETURNING IMMEDIATELY

 

38 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Thats not entirely accurate. Pattern and Syl both tell us that they lost their memories when they transferred over to bond a Radiant. I would not call that 'no problem'. In my theory this is also due to BAM being gone. Spren should be able to transfer no issue, but trapping BAM has changed / damaged that transition. I think this is also why we see spren lose their memories when they stop being bonded: like the stormfather and sibling. They remember things but they have to work for it - it isnt right at the forefront. 

Disagree, that's natural for spren. That transition doesn't make them deadeye, thus no problem. Nahel Bond enhances their minds, transition between realms is simply difficult for Cogitive Splinters and was difficult before as well. Some spren anchor themselves to other Radiants when crossing over, which help them, others are accompanied by commities, spren that recently lost thier knight regain their sanity for some time. The lost of awarness happens also when a spren got separated with their Radiant. That's simply the nature of spren and Nahel Bond. 

44 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I also did not see you mention the point about the Sibling and Navani. Every herald got a moment of clarity when that happened. The sibling specifically mentions that the trapping of BAM hurt her, and Navani fixed that hurt - leading to their moment of clarity. Even Taln, who is completely gone due to his insanity (didnt even realize he was back on roshar) had a moment of clarity. 

Nothing to mention there. Yes, there is a way to help Heralds regain their sanity, at least temporarily - but that's something that applies to every CS, not just Herald. All suffer from the same thing. That's why Thaidakar wants Kalak, to avoid his fade and insanity that awaits him. Once again, WoBs state that all CS suffers from the same fate, Fused suffer the same, many went insane even before BAM imprisonment (Raboniel, Pursuer for example). Heralds are the same.

In Heralds cases they get better for a moment when a Radiant reaches into SR when swearing an Oath. They are Connected, that's why they get better.

54 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Even if that is not related to BAM at all, there is some way to remedy their madness. We are shown it can be done. 

Fully agree.

54 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

The heralds were specifically made to last that long. That was why they were given the power they had / have.

Heralds are human, they weren't made, they were invested. Their soul remained human at its core and a human soul is not meant to last for an eternity. That's the nature of Cognitive Shadows, Heralds are no different. Dragons are, but no dragon was available on Roshar to become a Herald. Sure they got powers and physical eternity, but spiritually and cognitivly they can't be stopped from deteriorating just like that. Please read again that WoB from Dragonsteel 2023.

[Unholy Truth]

Pat Jacobs

The Herald Nale seems to have direct control of the spren of his order, do the other Heralds as well?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Good question. No.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Is this Wob not implying the existence of the other Herald's Spren ? I've been digging some more into this lately and seeing some more connections. Nothing definitive but this Wob stood out as weird to me. I'm reading it as they had spren but just no longer have control of them.

[Argenti]

28 minutes ago, Unholy Truth said:

Pat Jacobs

The Herald Nale seems to have direct control of the spren of his order, do the other Heralds as well?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Good question. No.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Is this Wob not implying the existence of the other Herald's Spren ? I've been digging some more into this lately and seeing some more connections. Nothing definitive but this Wob stood out as weird to me. I'm reading it as they had spren but just no longer have control of them.

It means the order to which they're the Patron of. Nale is at the top of the highspren's foodchain, and thus orders them around. Everyone else doesn't care what the corresponding Herald demands, they might listen to them as wise advisors, but I can't imagine most spren would side with odium if commanded by their Herald.

[Unholy Truth]

29 minutes ago, Argenti said:

It means the order to which they're the Patron of. Nale is at the top of the highspren's foodchain, and thus orders them around. Everyone else doesn't care what the corresponding Herald demands, they might listen to them as wise advisors, but I can't imagine most spren would side with odium if commanded by their Herald.

It bothers me how much sense that makes and shoots my work in progress down again lol. It still feels like something more than just BAM going on with this relationship. 

To be clear about your comment when it says, "direct control" Is it saying he can tell spren "X" go bond with this person (assuming they are compatible with skybreakers) and the spren would have no say?

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Unholy Truth said:

To be clear about your comment when it says, "direct control" Is it saying he can tell spren "X" go bond with this person (assuming they are compatible with skybreakers) and the spren would have no say?

Not like that. A person must prove himself to a spren - Szeth was chosen by his Highspren, as far as we know Nale didn't order any Highspren to bond him. Not everyone is fit to become a Skybreaker. Direct control means "let's fight on Odium's side now." Nale just holds a thigh grip on the entire order of Skybreakers and is respectable enough that other Highspren just listen to him. Highspren just are a bit weird compared to other spren, and this WoB said Nals's spren is somewhat responsible for how he is behaving:

Spoiler

Stormlightning

How the heck is Nale's spren still with him? Is his spren as wacky as he is? Or is it dead, and he still carries it around?

Brandon Sanderson

Nale's spren is alive. The highspren... I would say "wacky" is probably a decent term for them. I would blame some of how Nale is acting more on the highspren. Obviously, it's partially being a Herald and all the things he's gone through, but they're all on board for this. So read that as you will.

Well, "all." The ones that are making Radiants of the Order are on board for it. You'll get to see Szeth interact with his just a little bit. There's not a ton of Szeth in this book, but you've got a few chapters. At least one, for sure. And he gets to interact with his spren, and you'll get a better picture of the highspren from that moment.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Why does Szeth's spren not help him as a [Shardblade] even though he has said the Third Ideal?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, RAFO.

Let's just say that the highspren are perhaps a little bit different from other spren.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Spoiler

The Tack

Szeth’s spren has thus far been very distant Is this typical of highspren?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

[...]

YouTube Spoiler Stream 6 (Dec. 19, 2023)