Unmade are the Heralds spren?

[Unholy Truth]

Most of this topic is all RAFO stuff but it does seem like this would fill in some holes as well help explain the herald's madness. Ishar's "experiments" would make a little more sense at least in his motivation. Taravangian before taking up the shard also believed the unmade were previously spren and I can't remember the exact WOB but I believe it was unclear whether spren would return to braize after a heralds "death." 

Would love to hear some other thoughts on this.

[alder24]

17 hours ago, Unholy Truth said:

Most of this topic is all RAFO stuff but it does seem like this would fill in some holes as well help explain the herald's madness. Ishar's "experiments" would make a little more sense at least in his motivation. Taravangian before taking up the shard also believed the unmade were previously spren and I can't remember the exact WOB but I believe it was unclear whether spren would return to braize after a heralds "death." 

Would love to hear some other thoughts on this.

Doubtful. Only Nale has joined his Radiant Order, only he has bonded with a spren - and that spren is fine, even if they were present with him on Braize a few times. 

The Unmades were likely made out of some Spren present on Roshar - just like Rabiniel tried to do with the Sibling. However it's also possible that those Splinters weren't originally from Roshar. We don't really know.

But there is some connection between Unmades and Heralds - Heralds can sense their presence and Unmades possibly influence their madness in some way. Jezrien was talking about this to Dalinar in OB ch 88:

Quote

“Which one got to you, little child?” Ahu asked. “The Black Fisher? The Spawning Mother, the Faceless? Moelach is close. I can hear his wheezing, his scratching, his scraping at time like a rat breaking through walls.”
“I have no idea what you’re talking about.”
“Madness,” Ahu said, then giggled. “I used to think it wasn’t my fault. But you know, we can’t escape what we did? We let them in. We attracted them, befriended them, took them out to dance and courted them. It is our fault. You open yourself to it, and you pay the price. They ripped my brain out and made it dance! I watched.”

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Are the Unmade the analogs to Heralds?

Brandon Sanderson

There is certainly something similar going on there. Be aware that it's not a one-to-one correlation, that they're not exactly the same. For instance: Many of the- the Unmade are referenced by Taravangian in this, and he uses a phrase for them, and that is correct, that's what they are.

Footnote: In the epigraph for WoR 81 the Diagram says "The Unmade are a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may not be worth your time. You cannot help but think of them. They are fascinating. Many are mindless. Like the spren of human emotions, only much more nasty. I do believe a few can think, however."
Words of Radiance Seattle signing (March 8, 2014)

WoB you were referring to:

Spoiler

Chaos2651

We know Nale was the only Herald to join his Order. Based on the vision Dalinar had while touching him, it seemingly happened before the Last Desolation. Did Nale spend time on Braize while he had a Nahel bond? What happened to his highspren while he was there?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. So, if you end up in Braize as a Herald with a Nahel bond, your spren most likely would end up there with you. But there are circumstances where the spren could be left in Shadesmar and separated from you. Both are possible.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

Heralds madness is because they have lived for thousands of years while being constantly tortured - a human soul isn't made for this. Fused are affected in the same way, you see this with many of them, like Raboniel's daughter.

Spoiler

Questioner

Why or how are the Heralds the only ones we've seen so far that are affected by magical maladies due to either their high Investiture or long lives?

Brandon Sanderson

I would argue the Fused are having the same situation, so they're not the only ones. The why and how... there's a whole host of things going on here. Like a lot of physical and mental illness, it's not one thing or the other. But it is a compound of other things.

One is going so long without certain protections that you kind of need to take. The human being's soul might be immortal, depending on your argument in the cosmere. (That's really up to you.) But they certainly aren't meant for thousands of years of existence, the same way that our bodies aren't. There's some of that.

There's some of the things they've been through. Like, legit trauma; this is not all simply a magical ailment. You've got people with PTSD, layers of PTSD on top of layers of PTSD, for thousands of years, bearing things that no human being without their level of Investiture would even be able to bear. You've got that manifestation, you've got their own sense of guilt.

And these things are all just kind of overlapping together with the fact they've been alive for so, so very long. And a lot of the people that you've seen otherwise have not been alive nearly... orders of magnitude more for the Heralds. The only people you've seen that are that old are: some of the dragons, Hoid, and Vessels of various Shards. And you're basically at that group. And this is a group who knows what they're doing. Either they were built like the dragons, this is part of their innate nature, that they are functionally immortal. Or you are getting the Shards. Or you're getting people that are 300 years old, which is a very different thing, cosmere-wise, than having lived for thousands and thousands of years, part of it being torture.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

[ShroudedMoon]

What do you mean by "the Heralds' spren"? The Heralds (except for Nale) are not bonded to any spren, so they could not have a bond to the Unmade. I believe the Heralds' madness was due to being tortured so long. But I'm not sure whether spren return to Braize. The Unmade, at least, do not go there.

[Unholy Truth]

On 3/3/2024 at 12:11 AM, ShroudedMoon said:

What do you mean by "the Heralds' spren"? The Heralds (except for Nale) are not bonded to any spren, so they could not have a bond to the Unmade. I believe the Heralds' madness was due to being tortured so long. But I'm not sure whether spren return to Braize. The Unmade, at least, do not go there.

I meant the Heralds previous spren, I was aware Nale was only the one who joined his order and didn't betray his oaths, but on the coppermind it made it seem like all the heralds had spren at one point. But yeah, I agree the torture was a factor in the madness, but I believe we have wob's that suggest that it may be something magical as well like the unmade alder suggested. Also, the 9 unmade seems a little off thematically but who knows.

On 3/3/2024 at 8:26 AM, alder24 said:

 

But there is some connection between Unmades and Heralds - Heralds can sense their presence and Unmades possibly influence their madness in some way. Jezrien was talking about this to Dalinar in OB ch 88:

So why do you think they would be connected? It appears to me that the madness is happening at the spiritual level and I'm not at all dismissing the torture factor, but I feel like that one is more understood and accepted but it's still being hinted that it's something more in addition to that.

 

 

 

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, Unholy Truth said:

but on the coppermind it made it seem like all the heralds had spren at one point.

Could you quote it? I can only think of this one:

Quote

 each Herald took patronage over the Order that matched their Surges.

Which says they are patrons of Orders, not members. This is something spoken in books, even by Nale who said he is the only one to join them - which means the only one who bonded with a spren. Being a patron doesn't require them to be bonded - they had the same power sets because of their Honorblades. OB ch 106:

Quote

Nin held out his empty left hand. A Shardblade appeared there, different and distinct from the Honorblade he carried in the other hand. “I am not only a Herald, but a Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal. Though I was originally skeptical of the Radiants, I believe I am the only one who eventually joined his own order.

 

8 minutes ago, Unholy Truth said:

So why do you think they would be connected? It appears to me that the madness is happening at the spiritual level and I'm not at all dismissing the torture factor, but I feel like that one is more understood and accepted but it's still being hinted that it's something more in addition to that.

This connection doesn't have to be a literal Connection. It can be just that Heralds are mentally broken, which causes cracks in their spirit webs and Unmades just try to access the minds of people by those cracks (just like Ruin's control is achieved by using cracks in the soul). Thrill is using the same mechanism as emotional Allomancy.

But if there is some greater Connection then I don't know. They ripped pieces of Heralds souls, invested them and made Unmade out of them??? This is kind of what Jezrien's words suggest: "They ripped my brain out and made it dance! I watched." This idea is a bit far-fetched in my opinion. 

Spoiler

MiToRo94 (paraphrased)

This is a question about both The Stormlight Archive and the Mistborn series. Does The Thrill have anything to do with zinc, Rioters, or Allomancy in general?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

"They work on very similar principles." Their magic is based on similar ideas, and they do have a lot in common. A specific example would be that, "they both can affect different people to different extents and in slightly different ways. You can see that in how the Thrill affects Dalinar, and how burning zinc affects kandra differently than others on Scadrial. That is because kandra have pierced souls, so Allomancy affects them differently."

Superstars Writing Seminar 2018 (Feb. 3, 2018)

HoA WoB:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

The Resolution

TenSoon and the other kandra resist Ruin and are able to pull the spikes from their shoulders. There are a couple of reasons why they can do this.

The power that Allomancers have to take control of them is the same power Ruin has. That control is exerted in the form of mental pressure through emotional Allomancy. As can be seen from Marsh's viewpoint, it is more than simply forcing the body to act as Ruin wishes. The extreme pressure on emotions changes the very way the mind thinks, tricking it into doing exactly what Ruin wants. The flaw in Hemalurgists leaves them open to this kind of manipulation.

Kandra, who only have two spikes, are far more difficult to control than koloss or Inquisitors. Vin is able to control TenSoon with ease in book two, but that's partially because he wanted her to do so. He would have been able to resist her. If she'd continued to push, she could have broken him, but it would have taken time.

Even Ruin's pressure wasn't enough to take control immediately. The kandra had a few moments during which they could overcome him and maintain their free will. Beyond that, they were in a cavern surrounded by metal ore in the walls, making it very difficult for Ruin to see what was going on and interfering with his ability to control them.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (May 13, 2010)

 

[Unholy Truth]

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Could you quote it? I can only think of this one:

Which says they are patrons of Orders, not members. This is something spoken in books, even by Nale who said he is the only one to join them - which means the only one who bonded with a spren. Being a patron doesn't require them to be bonded - they had the same power sets because of their Honorblades. OB ch 106:

 

This connection doesn't have to be a literal Connection. It can be just that Heralds are mentally broken, which causes cracks in their spirit webs and Unmades just try to access the minds of people by those cracks (just like Ruin's control is achieved by using cracks in the soul). Thrill is using the same mechanism as emotional Allomancy.

But if there is some greater Connection then I don't know. They ripped pieces of Heralds souls, invested them and made Unmade out of them??? This is kind of what Jezrien's words suggest: "They ripped my brain out and made it dance! I watched." This idea is a bit far-fetched in my opinion. 

HoA WoB:

Heralds can also gain Surgebinding by forming a Nahel bond.^[18][50] It is unclear whether their spren would follow them to Braize or would be left in the Cognitive Realm, though most likely they would follow them.^[51] 

 

 ^{I see now it's just saying, "they can." I just thought it was implying multiple heralds had this happen otherwise why not just say Nale? But yeah, the ruin comparison definitely explains it without it having to be at the spiritual level. Idk I was pretty attached the idea of what effect a 5th ideal Radiant having their spren corrupted would be and thought it would tie in the heralds somehow. Not looking like it as much anymore lol}

^{What's your current thoughts on why 9 unmade and not 10? Anything related to the everstorm and missing 3rd bondsmith?}

 

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Unholy Truth said:

Heralds can also gain Surgebinding by forming a Nahel bond.^[18][50] It is unclear whether their spren would follow them to Braize or would be left in the Cognitive Realm, though most likely they would follow them.^[51] 

 

 ^{I see now it's just saying, "they can." I just thought it was implying multiple heralds had this happen otherwise why not just say Nale?}

Yeah, it's just using Nale as the example for a general rule. They can do that, but only Nale has ever done that.

4 minutes ago, Unholy Truth said:

Idk I was pretty attached the idea of what effect a 5th ideal Radiant having their spren corrupted would be and thought it would tie in the heralds somehow. Not looking like it as much anymore lol

I doubt it very much. Renarin seems fine with his Corrupted spren.

5 minutes ago, Unholy Truth said:

^{What's your current thoughts on why 9 unmade and not 10? Anything related to the everstorm and missing 3rd bondsmith?}

Unrelated to both. The 3rd Bondsmith isn't missing, nobody has bonded with the Nightwatcher yet. It's not like there were always three Bondsmith, it's just that there can be a maximum of 3 Bondsmiths - Melishi was the only Bondsmith during the Fals Desolation.

9 is the number of Odium, just like 10 is the number of Honor. Unmades to Odium together are like the Stormfather to Honor, or like the Nightwatcher to Cultivation. The Sibling was most likely to be the Unmade equivalent of a Bondsmith spren but this plan has failed. 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1) The Nightwatcher and Stormfather are parallel entities such that Nighwatcher:Cultivation :: Stormfather:Honor.

2) There is sort of a parallel for Odium, but the parallel is the various Unmade instead of a single entity.

3) They are parallel in that they are all Splinters.

4) The Unmade are voluntary Splinters, because Odium ("like almost all of the other Shards") voluntarily Splintered part of it's power.

5) The Stormfather is different from the others because it's a Sliver.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

[Argenti]

I'm with Alder on this one; as far as we are aware, most of the heralds never had a proper spren bond (Honorblades don't count), with the obvious exception being Nale. Its far more likely that the unmade are other splinters, from roshar or elsewhere, that have been corrupted to Odium (BAM is the soul of Roshar anyone?).

[Unholy Truth]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Yeah, it's just using Nale as the example for a general rule. They can do that, but only Nale has ever done that.

I doubt it very much. Renarin seems fine with his Corrupted spren.

Unrelated to both. The 3rd Bondsmith isn't missing, nobody has bonded with the Nightwatcher yet. It's not like there were always three Bondsmith, it's just that there can be a maximum of 3 Bondsmiths - Melishi was the only Bondsmith during the Fals Desolation.

9 is the number of Odium, just like 10 is the number of Honor. Unmades to Odium together are like the Stormfather to Honor, or like the Nightwatcher to Cultivation. The Sibling was most likely to be the Unmade equivalent of a Bondsmith spren but this plan has failed. 

That all makes sense.

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1) The Nightwatcher and Stormfather are parallel entities such that Nighwatcher:Cultivation :: Stormfather:Honor.

2) There is sort of a parallel for Odium, but the parallel is the various Unmade instead of a single entity.

3) They are parallel in that they are all Splinters.

4) The Unmade are voluntary Splinters, because Odium ("like almost all of the other Shards") voluntarily Splintered part of it's power.

5) The Stormfather is different from the others because it's a Sliver.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

I don't know how I've never come across these wobs before, is it confirmed that nightwatcher is unbonded or just no evidence for it? Thank you, the quick answers and great quotes. You're doing Adonalsium's work out here

Just now, Argenti said:

I'm with Alder on this one; as far as we are aware, most of the heralds never had a proper spren bond (Honorblades don't count), with the obvious exception being Nale. Its far more likely that the unmade are other splinters, from roshar or elsewhere, that have been corrupted to Odium (BAM is the soul of Roshar anyone?).

What do you mean by soul of Roshar?

[Argenti]

1 minute ago, Unholy Truth said:

What do you mean by soul of Roshar?

I'm saying she's the spren of roshar, but thats another theory for another thread. In short, my logic is:
Ba-Ado-Mishram has a powerful connection to everything in Roshar, spren or singer. When she was imprisoned, all of Roshar was damaged. You don't see this for the Thrill or the midnight mother when they where put in a rock. Additionally, it's not unreasonable to assume The Planet of Roshar has a spren, which is conspicuously absent in the story right now. 

[Unholy Truth]

3 minutes ago, Argenti said:

I'm saying she's the spren of roshar, but thats another theory for another thread. In short, my logic is:
Ba-Ado-Mishram has a powerful connection to everything in Roshar, spren or singer. When she was imprisoned, all of Roshar was damaged. You don't see this for the Thrill or the midnight mother when they where put in a rock. Additionally, it's not unreasonable to assume The Planet of Roshar has a spren, which is conspicuously absent in the story right now. 

Is your theory something like the planet itself because it's so heavily invested (3 Shards) and has been for so long that the planet itself has been become self-aware? I really like that idea.

[Argenti]

26 minutes ago, Unholy Truth said:

Is your theory something like the planet itself because it's so heavily invested (3 Shards) and has been for so long that the planet itself has been become self-aware? I really like that idea.

Something like that.

[alder24]

43 minutes ago, Unholy Truth said:

I don't know how I've never come across these wobs before, is it confirmed that nightwatcher is unbonded or just no evidence for it? Thank you, the quick answers and great quotes. You're doing Adonalsium's work out here

Nah, I've just spent too much time reading Arcanum 

There is no evidence for the Nightwatcher being bonded - it might have been confirmed by someone in the book. But there is a theory that Lift is bonded with her - you can read it here and here.

Edited March 4 by alder24

[listerfeend]

While reading this, I'm reminded of the fact that Shallan was under the impression that Re-Shephir (Midnight Mother) may have been human at one time. What are we to make of this? She's certainly no expert, and definitely an unreliable narrator, but, of all of the POV's we've had, she has had the most contact, and the most intimate, with any of the Unmade.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

While reading this, I'm reminded of the fact that Shallan was under the impression that Re-Shephir (Midnight Mother) may have been human at one time. What are we to make of this? She's certainly no expert, and definitely an unreliable narrator, but, of all of the POV's we've had, she has had the most contact, and the most intimate, with any of the Unmade.

Could you provide a quote? It's not in the OB ch 30, when Shallan confronts Re-Shephir. It is only said that the Unmade is fascinated by humans and began imitating them. It was also said that it feared imprisonment as she was imprisoned. Also this little word caught my attention:

Quote

This spren was not completely aware, not completely cognizant. She was a creation of instinct and alien curiosity, drawn to violence and pain like scavengers to the scent of blood.

Alien?? You mean she's alien to Roshar? That's a solid argument for the theory about Unmades/Re-Shephir originating outside of the Rosharan system. 

Dalinar had the same kind of contact with the Thrill. 

[Returned]

53 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Alien?? You mean she's alien to Roshar? That's a solid argument for the theory about Unmades/Re-Shephir originating outside of the Rosharan system. 

I read alien as totally foreign to human-like thought patterns, with no common basis to compare with human, Listener, dragon, etc. We see something similar with spren, like Pattern, where they just don't quite get the way that humans think about things sometimes.

That said we don't really know anything about the Unmade and I've just been assuming that they are greatspren, similar to the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. But lots of beings can bridge the Physical and Cognitive realms. Spren may be native to Roshar, but some being that spans both realms could accrue Investiture and wind up pretty spren-like, especially on Roshar itself. And we've commonly heard that certain entities are very similar to spren, particularly cognitive shadows. I've spent some time thinking about what the Unmade might be spren of, but haven't been too satisfied with what I've come up with. Maybe part of that is because I've been thinking in the wrong direction!

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, Returned said:

I read alien as totally foreign to human-like thought patterns, with no common basis to compare with human, Listener, dragon, etc. We see something similar with spren, like Pattern, where they just don't quite get the way that humans think about things sometimes.

Yeah, that's a more reasonable possibility.

21 minutes ago, Returned said:

That said we don't really know anything about the Unmade and I've just been assuming that they are greatspren, similar to the Stormfather and Nightwatcher.

Per WoB posted earlier here, they all together are parallel to the Stormfather/Nightwatcher, but alone they aren't that invested.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1) The Nightwatcher and Stormfather are parallel entities such that Nighwatcher:Cultivation :: Stormfather:Honor.

2) There is sort of a parallel for Odium, but the parallel is the various Unmade instead of a single entity.

 

16 minutes ago, Returned said:

I've spent some time thinking about what the Unmade might be spren of, but haven't been too satisfied with what I've come up with. Maybe part of that is because I've been thinking in the wrong direction!

I think you do think in the wrong direction. They aren't Spren (I mean not like Syl is an Honorspren, or Windspren are about winds - Unmades don't represent ideas), they are Unmades, they were unmade. We should search for what kind of being they were before they were unmade. But that's hard because we know nothing and they also know nothing about their own past. 

[Unholy Truth]

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

I think you do think in the wrong direction. They aren't Spren (I mean not like Syl is an Honorspren, or Windspren are about winds - Unmades don't represent ideas), they are Unmades, they were unmade. We should search for what kind of being they were before they were unmade. But that's hard because we know nothing and they also know nothing about their own past. 

“Madness,” Ahu said, then giggled. “I used to think it wasn’t my fault. But you know, we can’t escape what we did? We let them in. We attracted them, befriended them, took them out to dance and courted them. It is our fault. You open yourself to it, and you pay the price. They ripped my brain out and made it dance! I watched.”

This is that quote you posted earlier, thinking more on it this still sounds at least very spren-like

 

[alder24]

56 minutes ago, Unholy Truth said:

Quote

“Madness,” Ahu said, then giggled. “I used to think it wasn’t my fault. But you know, we can’t escape what we did? We let them in. We attracted them, befriended them, took them out to dance and courted them. It is our fault. You open yourself to it, and you pay the price. They ripped my brain out and made it dance! I watched.”

This is that quote you posted earlier, thinking more on it this still sounds at least very spren-like

Yes they are Spren, they are Splinters, I meant they don't seem to represent any ideas like Syl, or Windspren are. Windspren represent wind, they are the idea of the wind - Unmades aren't attracted to anything, they don't represent ideas, they just are. It's hard to come up with this relation between each unmade and some idea, something that is easily recognisable for any other Spren living on Roshar. 

That's because Unmades aren't a "natural" creation, they didn't develop being shaped by perception of people, they were something, then they were corrupted and unmade by Odium. 

[Unholy Truth]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes they are Spren, they are Splinters, I meant they don't seem to represent any ideas like Syl, or Windspren are. Windspren represent wind, they are the idea of the wind - Unmades aren't attracted to anything, they don't represent ideas, they just are. It's hard to come up with this relation between each unmade and some idea, something that is easily recognisable for any other Spren living on Roshar. 

That's because Unmades aren't a "natural" creation, they didn't develop being shaped by perception of people, they were something, then they were corrupted and unmade by Odium. 

Is it confirmed that they are original splinters of odium? If something similar were to happen to syl when shes in physical form, would we see a similar effect on kalidan? Because its ripping off a piece of the spirit ?

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Unholy Truth said:

Is it confirmed that they are original splinters of odium? If something similar were to happen to syl when shes in physical form, would we see a similar effect on kalidan? Because its ripping off a piece of the spirit ?

We don't know anything about Unmades before they were unmade. We know the process basically kills them. We don't know where they came from, or what unmaking would do to someone bonded with that spren. 

[Returned]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I meant they don't seem to represent any ideas like Syl, or Windspren are. [...] It's hard to come up with this relation between each unmade and some idea, something that is easily recognisable for any other Spren living on Roshar.

Unless you have something like a WoB on this I think you may be overreaching. Not necessarily wrong, but beyond what the evidence dictates. Just because they don't "seem to" represent ideas that are easy for you to come up with doesn't mean that your imagination sets the boundaries for what is true about the characters.

The Stormfather is humans' conception of storms and the divine (or so he says, at any rate) in the same way that windspren are humans' (well, and probably Singers') conception of wind. If not for the Stormfather's description of himself I doubt that we'd map those qualities to him as his being the spren of those ideas. It's probably not what he always was, either-- before Tanavast died the divinity angle probably wasn't there. But he's a spren of divinity now, even if he's not a divinityspren in the same sense that a spren of wind is a windspren.

It's trivial to imagine that, say, Ashertmarn is some conception of sensual pleasure, twisted to become gluttonous revelry to the exclusion of everything else. The lack of knowledge of what the Unmade were before their unmaking should lead us to be less confident and more open-minded about their nature and properties, not more confident and closed-minded. We don't really know what greatspren are, exactly, and knowing that they aren't exactly the same as lesser spren doesn't give us a whole lot of precise information countering that.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Returned said:

Unless you have something like a WoB on this I think you may be overreaching. Not necessarily wrong, but beyond what the evidence dictates. Just because they don't "seem to" represent ideas that are easy for you to come up with doesn't mean that your imagination sets the boundaries for what is true about the characters.

I agree, that's why they only seem to. Nergaoul and Ashertmarn are the easiest to find some connection to concepts like battle rage and lust. But others? The more intelligent they get the harder it is to connect them to some ideas (the same can be said about the Sibling and Nightwatcher). But we still haven't seen half of them. However, they aren't attracted by lust or blood frenzy, they cause it, which is unlike other Spren. 

Maybe Unmades and Greatspren are just too big to represent ideas, too sentient to be attracted, were made by their Shards in a way that just makes them greater than a single idea?

1 hour ago, Returned said:

The Stormfather is humans' conception of storms and the divine (or so he says, at any rate) in the same way that windspren are humans' (well, and probably Singers') conception of wind. If not for the Stormfather's description of himself I doubt that we'd map those qualities to him as his being the spren of those ideas. It's probably not what he always was, either-- before Tanavast died the divinity angle probably wasn't there. But he's a spren of divinity now, even if he's not a divinityspren in the same sense that a spren of wind is a windspren.

The Stormfather is the father of Highstorms, that's an easy connection. His "divinity" came from his status as Honor's Cognitive Shadow. He's not any Spren of divinity, he's just a Cognitive Shadow of the dead god.

[Returned]

21 hours ago, alder24 said:

However, they aren't attracted by lust or blood frenzy, they cause it, which is unlike other Spren.

Maybe Unmades and Greatspren are just too big to represent ideas, too sentient to be attracted, were made by their Shards in a way that just makes them greater than a single idea?

Maybe there's some alteration by grandness/Investiture of spren? I think that your assessment of intelligence relating to complexity in spren behavior is right, but the grander spren also seem to have more interactions with Investiture or have more of it themselves. We know that spren can cause the things they represent to manifest via fabrial, maybe a great enough spren can do something similar without mechanical assistance?

I like the idea that they're too big to be simple expressions of ideas. They're more complex, like the Vessel-less masses of Investiture gaining their own sentience we hear about so often. They were ideas, but now they're more "grown up" and have agency and identity (Identity?) of their own beyond that. Even if they retain their "cognitive expressions of ideas" nature (assuming they had that in the first place), perhaps they could be more complex or subtly nuanced ideas. Feasting or pleasure becomes gluttonous, hedonistic partying for Ashertmarn, something like curiousity becomes hollow, destructive envy for Re-Shephir, or something like that. Still a bit of a reach, and presumes a lot about their nature that's not properly in evidence.

22 hours ago, alder24 said:

The Stormfather is the father of Highstorms, that's an easy connection. His "divinity" came from his status as Honor's Cognitive Shadow. He's not any Spren of divinity, he's just a Cognitive Shadow of the dead god.

He is that, true, but his spren-nature can't be quite so bound up in it as humans broadly don't even know that Honor is dead. As a spren his nature should still be influenced by conceptions of him (though maybe less so given his grandness?), and a good portion of his divinity is the portion of Honor that he absorbed. Unless I'm missing a WoB (and I may be, I assume someone will correct me shortly if so), the Stormfather isn't Honor's cognitive shadow in the same sense that Thaidakar is Kelsier's, he's basically Honor's cognitive shadow. That distinction (again, if it holds up) might matter greatly:

Quote

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

In any case, I don't think there is much unclarity about cognitive shadows needing a good mass of Investiture, which greater spren have by nature. The Nightwatcher is also quite powerful (the granting of boons and curses as the Old Magic), well beyond what most spren are capable of, and she certainly hasn't absorbed most of a Shard to become so. I'm interested to know if the differences between the Stormfather and Nightwatcher are categorical (Tanvast's death leading to the Stormfather picking up something not otherwise available) or more a matter of degree (the Stormfather has more Investiture than the Nightwatcher, and the manner by which he obtained it is less important). Maybe we'll learn more in December...

[listerfeend]

On 3/8/2024 at 4:57 PM, alder24 said:

Could you provide a quote? It's not in the OB ch 30, when Shallan confronts Re-Shephir.

Sure! Sorry, I was away from the forums all weekend. In OB ch 32, Shallan is relaying her experiences with confronting Re-Shephir, and ruminating on them. Specifically, she thinks:

 

Quote

There was a deeper mystery beyond that, a wisp of something she'd glimpsed while intertwined with Re-Shephir. It made Shallan wonder if this spren wasn't merely trying to understand humankind, but rather searching for something it itself had lost.

Had this creature-in distant, distant time beyond memory- once been human?

-Oathbringer, Ch. 32

Emphasis is in text, not mine. 

Shallan is not specifically an expert or anything in the field of Unmade study, however, she has confronted more of them than any other PoV we've had so far, and had the most intimate contact with Re-Shephir. 

[alder24]

27 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Sure! Sorry, I was away from the forums all weekend. In OB ch 32, Shallan is relaying her experiences with confronting Re-Shephir, and ruminating on them. Specifically, she thinks:
 

Emphasis is in text, not mine. 

Shallan is not specifically an expert or anything in the field of Unmade study, however, she has confronted more of them than any other PoV we've had so far, and had the most intimate contact with Re-Shephir. 

Thanks. I find it possible, I would not dismiss this statement. One theory about Re-Shephir is that she used to be a Midnight Aetherbound. But we don't need that specific connection to Midnight Aether - when investiture is corrupted in a specific way, it manifests as Midnight Essence. How can a human become a Splinter? No idea. 

But as you said, Shallan isn't an expert. It's possible that Re-Shephir isn't looking specifically for her lost humanity, but rather for her lost cognition, as for example she used to be a sentient Splinter for example. A person, but not a human. 

Spoiler

Red the Windrunner (paraphrased)

We have now seen Midnight Essence on Lumar and as part of the Unmade on Roshar, should we assume that all the other Unmade have connections to Odium’s other conquests like maybe Sja-anat and Ambition?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Midnight Essence is more like Lightweaving in that multiple magic systems will reach the same conclusion. When something is done to the magic to corrupt it, it becomes like Midnight Essence. So while there are similarities between the two and they work the same they may not have the same point of origin.

Red the Windrunner (paraphrased)

So there is no meaningful connection between Sja-anat and Ambition?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You weren’t going to let me off the hook. You are theorizing in a very interesting direction. RAFO!

Tampa Bay Comic Convention 2023 (July 28, 2023)