Theory: Feruchemical determination is actually Intent

[Quantus he/him]

This is not my theory but I saw it on reddit and it's a fascinating take, and it solves an issue Ive been having with the oddly specific and limited (seeming) application of Electrum as just a Manic/Depressive slider.   It also has exciting implicaions for Electrum as a core part of the mechanization of Investiture in the future, as it would capture a piece that previously required a living Intelligence to provide.  What do you all think?

The core argument is:

Quote

 

When Feruchemists use electrum to tap and store "determination", they're actually storing Intent. There are feruchemical metals for Connection, Investiture, and Identity, so it makes sense to me that there would be one for Intent too.

...

I like this theory both because it bothers me that all the other Investiture-related qualities have a metal but Intent doesn't. We know that the Feruchemists didn't know exactly what they were doing when experimenting with these metals, so I think it's very plausible they just interpreted it as "makes you better at not giving up". And lastly one of the synonyms for "determination" is "intentness", so in terms of language it's not too much of a leap I think.

 

 

 

[Duxredux he/him]

Well, you've got some support over from this thread @Stormtide_Leviathan.

I could see this being something Brandon might do. There's a bit of discussion on the older thread as well.

[Quantus he/him]

  

42 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Well, you've got some support over from this thread @Stormtide_Leviathan.

I could see this being something Brandon might do. There's a bit of discussion on the older thread as well.

 

Search function fails me again! (or it's just me, which is also likely)

Edited February 28, 2024 by Quantus

[alder24]

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

This is not my theory but I saw it on reddit and it's a fascinating take, and it solves an issue Ive been having with the oddly specific and limited (seeming) application of Electrum as just a Manic/Depressive slider.   It also has exciting implicaions for Electrum as a core part of the mechanization of Investiture in the future, as it would capture a piece that previously required a living Intelligence to provide.  What do you all think?

Thanks @Duxredux, I couldn't find this topic as well. I stand by what I wrote there. It doesn't make sense for me.

Intent isn't something Spiritual, it isn't just about investiture, it comes from your mind. Intent is a combination of your will to do something, with the knowledge of how things work and expectations of certain outcomes. This second part about knowledge is just your memory, it can be stored in a Coppermind. Store your knowledge about burning metals and now you have no intent to use them, because you don't know it is even possible (just like Wax was unable to use a Coppermind medallion until he realized what it is). The first component is your will and this is just determination. You are willing to do something, you can have an intent if you have a proper knowledge. And that will comes from sentience - that's it. So F-electrum is related to intent (because it changes your will), but doesn't store Intent directly (because you would need to store your knowledge and that F-copper so repetition like this is useless). 

We see people with great will - with great determination - doing impressive stuff in Cosmere - Marsh. He was determined to resist Ruin's influence, to preserve his mind and remember who he is. This strong determination paid off and eventually allowed him to overcome Ruin's rule in the most crucial moment, allowing Vin to Ascend. Without that determination, without that strong will, this wouldn't have happened. Tapping determination should allow you to resist emotional Allomancy and Hemalurgic control better. HoA ch 66 epigraphs:

Quote

Inquisitors had little chance of resisting Ruin. They had more spikes than any of his other Hemalurgic creations, and that put them completely under his domination.

Yes, it would have taken a man of supreme will to resist Ruin even slightly while bearing the spikes of an Inquisitor.

Command and Intent are related - a Command is a focus for an Intent. They aren't separate, a Command doesn't exist without an Intent. And Intent is more about understanding - something that can be stored in Copperminds.

Spoiler

Chaos

In Dawnshard we learned that Intent and Command are two different things, whereas in Warbreaker Vasher is clearly conflating these two into just saying it's the Command. What's the difference between Intent and Command?

Brandon Sanderson

Intent encompasses more understanding. Command is specifically narrow. A lot of times, these things are gonna be conflated, because they basically can be. Like, if Vasher creates an awakened thing and says "go get me those keys." The Intent is: "I need the keys to get outta here. I want to be free." The Command is: "Go fetch keys." Those are two different things, but they are working toward the same goal. It is important in cosmere terms that the Intent is understood, even if sometimes the words that can speak 'em are clunky and smaller in scale by nature than the Intent.

Let's say the Intent of a Shard encompasses more than the word that the Shard is described by. It's a similar thing that the Intent of a Command is often vaster than the actual words spoken. And the magic can grasp the Intent, not just the Command, depending on the magic system and how good you are at it, and things like that. The words are there to focus Intent. How about that?

Chaos

Bringing the old word "focus" back into it. Let's talk about body focuses; what's going on there? (That's a joke.)

Brandon Sanderson

I'll throw you a kernel on that one in the fifth book if you watch for it. That old Rosharan philosophy will actually be relevant for a small thing happening in the fifth book.

Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021)

[Quantus he/him]

I was replying to that original thread but Ill move it here and add some for your more recent post.

  

On 11/30/2023 at 2:11 PM, alder24 said:

What is an intent in Cosmere? It isn't something spiritual, it's your will to do something while expecting certain outcomes. If you know you can burn metals - you have intent now when you want to burn them (your body knows that too and can provide that intent, like with Vin or pewter healing). You can spike someone if you know metals can steal stuff - just knowing that and being willing to do that gives you intent. Tapping metalmind requires intent, knowledge that something is a metalmind, which you can access and tap/store (as clearly visible in BoM epilogue, when Wax is examining the coin-Coppermind).

The only way I see it working with Feruchemy is in the same way Coppermind works - all and nothing. You store it all permanently in the metalminds, and tap it all back. It doesn't make sense to "tap intent 10x" or "store intent for an hour". And because many times for intent to work you need to know what's gonna happen - that's exactly what memories and Copperminds do. You already can store intents in Feruchemy - just dump your entire knowledge of Feruchemy into Coppermind and then you're unable to use metalminds as for you those are just some boring pieces of metal. You won't even know there is a charge stored inside.

  Hide contents

It was right there. The coin he’d been given by the beggar, shining in the faint starlight. Drewton must have found it in his pocket. Wax reached out, hesitated a moment, and then slipped it from the table before stepping out into the mist.
Could it be? he wondered, holding up the coin. Two different metals. One was silvery. Could that be nicrosil? The other was copper. A Feruchemical metal. Though the pattern printed on the face wasn’t the same, and the coin itself was smaller, this didn’t look all that different from one of the Southerner medallions.
As soon as he thought of it—as soon as he knew what it might do—the metalmind started working, and he found a store within him, a reserve he could tap.

 

So no, Electrum doesn't store intent, because we already kind of have that in Feruchemy - Copper. Store all your knowledge about invested art, and you don't have intent anymore, because you don't even know it's possible.

I dont think this view of Determination works with the evidence: The manic state represents an increase over the baseline, contrasted to the depressive state that is a decrease from that baseline, but the Unit storage model doesnt allow for an increase over the natural state like that.  It's likely more of a Cognitive than a Spiritual aspect of the person, but both are viable possibilities for that metal quadrant.  

I think it's closer to the hypothetical Tappable Aluminum for Identity in that it is still a sort of Investiture based pattern coding like Copper Memories, but more like with Identity where it has a relevant volume/intensity aspect with its magical interactions.  It would most naturally arise in instances of opposed Will/Intent/Determination situations, but I could see it becoming far more relevant in the later mechanization of the metallic arts where it would become helpful to store and reproduce the Intent aspect most magics and/or realmic workings; spren make that part easy for Rosharan fabrials but Scadrian magics is very likely have some counterpart baked in.  

 

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Thanks @Duxredux, I couldn't find this topic as well. I stand by what I wrote there. It doesn't make sense for me.

Intent isn't something Spiritual, it isn't just about investiture, it comes from your mind. Intent is a combination of your will to do something, with the knowledge of how things work and expectations of certain outcomes. This second part about knowledge is just your memory, it can be stored in a Coppermind. Store your knowledge about burning metals and now you have no intent to use them, because you don't know it is even possible (just like Wax was unable to use a Coppermind medallion until he realized what it is). The first component is your will and this is just determination. You are willing to do something, you can have an intent if you have a proper knowledge. And that will comes from sentience - that's it. So F-electrum is related to intent (because it changes your will), but doesn't store Intent directly (because you would need to store your knowledge and that F-copper so repetition like this is useless). 

We see people with great will - with great determination - doing impressive stuff in Cosmere - Marsh. He was determined to resist Ruin's influence, to preserve his mind and remember who he is. This strong determination paid off and eventually allowed him to overcome Ruin's rule in the most crucial moment, allowing Vin to Ascend. Without that determination, without that strong will, this wouldn't have happened. Tapping determination should allow you to resist emotional Allomancy and Hemalurgic control better. HoA ch 66 epigraphs:

Command and Intent are related - a Command is a focus for an Intent. They aren't separate, a Command doesn't exist without an Intent. And Intent is more about understanding - something that can be stored in Copperminds.

  Hide contents

Chaos

In Dawnshard we learned that Intent and Command are two different things, whereas in Warbreaker Vasher is clearly conflating these two into just saying it's the Command. What's the difference between Intent and Command?

Brandon Sanderson

Intent encompasses more understanding. Command is specifically narrow. A lot of times, these things are gonna be conflated, because they basically can be. Like, if Vasher creates an awakened thing and says "go get me those keys." The Intent is: "I need the keys to get outta here. I want to be free." The Command is: "Go fetch keys." Those are two different things, but they are working toward the same goal. It is important in cosmere terms that the Intent is understood, even if sometimes the words that can speak 'em are clunky and smaller in scale by nature than the Intent.

Let's say the Intent of a Shard encompasses more than the word that the Shard is described by. It's a similar thing that the Intent of a Command is often vaster than the actual words spoken. And the magic can grasp the Intent, not just the Command, depending on the magic system and how good you are at it, and things like that. The words are there to focus Intent. How about that?

Chaos

Bringing the old word "focus" back into it. Let's talk about body focuses; what's going on there? (That's a joke.)

Brandon Sanderson

I'll throw you a kernel on that one in the fifth book if you watch for it. That old Rosharan philosophy will actually be relevant for a small thing happening in the fifth book.

Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021)

I really dont agree with your assertion that Cosmere Intent is that binary or that it is synonymous with Memory, but Im not sure how to argue it without things dragging into a philosophic conversation and Im trying not go get too distracted and keep it in realmics (but forgive me if I fail).

For the rest, yes, that Marsh/Will example would be the sort of Determination that I'd think should be storable in a hypothetical Intent Metalmind.  If the Intent is left wildly unfocused it become a very general Intent to Do Stuff that looks like mania when tapped, and when non-specifically stored it's a lot like the mental inertia of depression.  But the idea is that if you stored/tapped a more specific Intent like "I Dont Want Ruin's Control" and/or "I want To Be Free" it could boost precisely that sort of Cognitive contest.  Granted that may not be all that practical out of the box without a ton of foresight and prep-work, but a compounder store a little and compound blast a ton at need.  

Let me give you another realmic example of the aspect I think we are talking about: Command Breaking requires a minimum heightening to Override an existing Command.  That's where the Intent Volume of a scaled Store/Tap would come in.  

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Quantus said:

I dont think this view of Determination works with the evidence: The manic state represents an increase over the baseline, contrasted to the depressive state that is a decrease from that baseline, but the Unit storage model doesnt allow for an increase over the natural state like that.  It's likely more of a Cognitive than a Spiritual aspect of the person, but both are viable possibilities for that metal quadrant.  

Right, we know how "determination" is stored - you can get over 100%, you can get into a manic state, it's stored like speed in steelminds. But that doesn't make sense for an Intent - you either have it or not. It makes no sense to "have more intent to burn metals" than normally. If there was an ability to store Intent directly, it would work like storing memories in a Coppermind. 

13 hours ago, Quantus said:

I really dont agree with your assertion that Cosmere Intent is that binary or that it is synonymous with Memory, but Im not sure how to argue it without things dragging into a philosophic conversation and Im trying not go get too distracted and keep it in realmics (but forgive me if I fail).

For the rest, yes, that Marsh/Will example would be the sort of Determination that I'd think should be storable in a hypothetical Intent Metalmind.  If the Intent is left wildly unfocused it become a very general Intent to Do Stuff that looks like mania when tapped, and when non-specifically stored it's a lot like the mental inertia of depression.  But the idea is that if you stored/tapped a more specific Intent like "I Dont Want Ruin's Control" and/or "I want To Be Free" it could boost precisely that sort of Cognitive contest.  Granted that may not be all that practical out of the box without a ton of foresight and prep-work, but a compounder store a little and compound blast a ton at need.  

Agree to disagree. For me that's will, not Intent. Will is a part of Intent. Understanding what you're doing is another important part of Intent. You won't burn metals if you don't want to - you have to have a will to do that in that moment, but you also need to know you can do that to begin with. That knowledge can be stored in a Coppermind and to have Intent storable separately makes little sense. 

Spoiler

Moogle

Compounding requires practice, according to The Hero of Age's annotations. And yet, it's apparently as easy as burning a metalmind. What was going on that meant the Inquisitors couldn't figure out how to do it (despite Ruin likely knowing how and undoubtedly wanting them to learn) for over a year? What skill did they need to practice doing, exactly?

And what happened while they were practicing burning metalminds without successfully Compounding? Did they get an Allomantic effect?

Brandon Sanderson

What I think I was getting at in the annotations was a cosmere magic rule that, perhaps, I hadn't completely refined yet. This is the idea that INTENTION is vitally important to the workings of most cosmere magics.

You can learn to burn metals instinctively over time, but it does take time--time for your body to figure out what it's doing. If you have instruction and guidance, you can pick it up in an evening, like Vin did. Same goes for most of the magics. This ties into Awakening, with the idea that you have to form a command.

During Warbreaker was where I really refined this aspect of the magic. Logically, since the beginning of the cosmere, I've wanted all three Realms to be important to the way the magics worked. The "Practice" therefore for compounding is mental practice--a barrier to overcome in understanding what is happening, and what it will do to you.

If you already know all of these things by having it explained to you, that barrier is far less high. I think that was what I was talking about in the Annotations, without really having the idea specified yet--though I'd have to look back at the annotation and re-read it to say for certain.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 3, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Kurkistan

So is that the same thing with Commands, are there like ideals that are Commands?

Brandon Sanderson

This is more of a-- For you to interface with the magic, you need to be able to comprehend it. And so forming a Command-- The same thing happens in Elantris, you know they don't accidentally draw runes, right? The intention is part of interfacing with the magic. So it's like your mind reaching into the Spiritual Realm and you have to like conceive something.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

From Elantris Ars Arcanum:

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INTENTION
As in other forms of Investiture, intent is very important. An Elantrian can’t accidentally draw an Aon. Because of their complexity, this would be highly unlikely, but I have tested it to my satisfaction. One must wish to draw an Aon, and have an inkling of the required shape, before anything will happen.

 

13 hours ago, Quantus said:

Let me give you another realmic example of the aspect I think we are talking about: Command Breaking requires a minimum heightening to Override an existing Command.  That's where the Intent Volume of a scaled Store/Tap would come in.  

It seems like it doesn't require minimum Heightening - Lightsong's priests were able to Command Break Vasher's squirrel, it took them weeks to do that and I highly doubt they had the 8th Heightening. The 8th Heightening allows you to Command Break instinctively. Warbreaker ch 38:

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“Do you know anything about breaking Lifeless, my dear?”
She shrugged.
“I didn’t either,” Lightsong said. “Not until I required my priests to break this one. Apparently, it requires weeks to take control of a Lifeless for which you do not have the right security phrases. I’m not even sure how the pro cess goes—has something to do with Breath and torture, apparently.”
“Torture?” she said. “Lifeless can’t feel.”
Lightsong shrugged. “Anyway, my servants broke this one for me. The stronger and more skilled the Awakener who created the Lifeless, the more difficult it is to break it.”

Warbreaker ch 58:

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“The easiest. Barring that, we can chase them down and grab them one at a time, then break them and replace their Command phrases. But even if you had the Eighth Heightening to let you break Commands instinctively, changing so many would take weeks.”

 

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Right, we know how "determination" is stored - you can get over 100%, you can get into a manic state, it's stored like speed in steelminds. But that doesn't make sense for an Intent - you either have it or not. It makes no sense to "have more intent to burn metals" than normally. If there was an ability to store Intent directly, it would work like storing memories in a Coppermind. 

Agree to disagree. For me that's will, not Intent. Will is a part of Intent. Understanding what you're doing is another important part of Intent. You won't burn metals if you don't want to - you have to have a will to do that in that moment, but you also need to know you can do that to begin with. That knowledge can be stored in a Coppermind and to have Intent storable separately makes little sense. 

 

You need to know about an obscure or supernatural Sense to be able to store it, you'd need to know you have a Power to store it.  Neither of those are redundant to the Copper Memory of those capabilities.   Especially since Copper store Memories but not overall Knowledge, it cannot store skills or Muscle memory, etc.

[alder24]

21 minutes ago, Quantus said:

You need to know about an obscure or supernatural Sense to be able to store it, you'd need to know you have a Power to store it.  Neither of those are redundant to the Copper Memory of those capabilities.   Especially since Copper store Memories but not overall Knowledge, it cannot store skills or Muscle memory, etc.

Once you know it, you can simply store all your memories of that knowledge and that's it. You no longer know it. 

[Quantus he/him]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Once you know it, you can simply store all your memories of that knowledge and that's it. You no longer know it. 

Sure, but being able to block an ability does not make them the same thing, as evidenced by the fact that Sense and Investitures and Connection, etc are all their own metals.  You can remove/Store all the memories of your homeland and you then would no longer know anything about it.  But that probably isnt going to remove your spiritual Connection to that homeland (given how much larger a role that has realmically), and it definitely does not Replace the realmic role of Connection, the way you are saying it would with an Intent metalmind.   

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Sure, but being able to block an ability does not make them the same thing, as evidenced by the fact that Sense and Investitures and Connection, etc are all their own metals.  You can remove/Store all the memories of your homeland and you then would no longer know anything about it.  But that probably isnt going to remove your spiritual Connection to that homeland (given how much larger a role that has realmically), and it definitely does not Replace the realmic role of Connection, the way you are saying it would with an Intent metalmind.   

But intent isn't Spiritual like Connection, it's more mental. Intent is tied to your understanding - remove that understanding, you don't have an Intent anymore. 

Quote

 The "Practice" therefore for compounding is mental practice--a barrier to overcome in understanding what is happening, and what it will do to you.

That's why I see Intent as a combination of two things - your understanding and your will. Your will is affected by determination, that determination is F-electrum.

[Quantus he/him]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But intent isn't Spiritual like Connection, it's more mental. Intent is tied to your understanding - remove that understanding, you don't have an Intent anymore. 

 

I dont see how that's relevant? As much as 3/4 of the feruchemcial table is not Spiritual, but they all still exist in there feruchemical system.  

Also Memory is not Understanding, it's literally just Memory of past events.  It's not skills, not understanding, not muscle memory, or any of the other things.  You can store your memory of reading the book, but that doesnt remove broader the education and mental expansion and world understanding that you grew into while reading it (and you cannot store any of those things in Copper). 

[alder24]

19 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I dont see how that's relevant? As much as 3/4 of the feruchemcial table is not Spiritual, but they all still exist in there feruchemical system.  

It's relevant because you're talking like it is fully Spiritual, like Connection. But it isn't, it's a mental thing. It's not in your spirit web, it's in your mind. I'm not talking about the Feruchemical Table.

21 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Also Memory is not Understanding, it's literally just Memory of past events.  It's not skills, not understanding, not muscle memory, or any of the other things.  You can store your memory of reading the book, but that doesnt remove broader the education and mental expansion and world understanding that you grew into while reading it (and you cannot store any of those things in Copper). 

Disagree. You understand things based on your memories, that's learning. Remove those memories and some other memories about you using that knowledge and your understanding is gone. 

We can go on and on but in the end we have to agree to disagree. 

[Quantus he/him]

On 2/29/2024 at 10:53 AM, alder24 said:

It's relevant because you're talking like it is fully Spiritual, like Connection. But it isn't, it's a mental thing. It's not in your spirit web, it's in your mind. I'm not talking about the Feruchemical Table.

Disagree. You understand things based on your memories, that's learning. Remove those memories and some other memories about you using that knowledge and your understanding is gone. 

We can go on and on but in the end we have to agree to disagree. 

I...dont know if we were ever talking about the same things, to be honest. 

[alder24]

13 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I...dont know if we were ever talking about the same things, to be honest. 

Yeah, it's kind of all over the place. You said "storing memories won't remove Connection" and that it should work the same with Intent, I replied "intent isn't like Connection, it's not spiritual, it's mental thing, it's your understanding, so removing your understanding removes your Intent." Then you brought up the Feruchemical Table, which I didn't mean by saying "spiritual/mental." And that's what I am claiming - storing proper memories would remove your intent because intent is in your mind, not in your spirit web. But your understanding is just one part of intent, the other is your will - that's determination. We can agree to disagree in the end.

[Quantus he/him]

20 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yeah, it's kind of all over the place. You said "storing memories won't remove Connection" and that it should work the same with Intent, I replied "intent isn't like Connection, it's not spiritual, it's mental thing, it's your understanding, so removing your understanding removes your Intent." Then you brought up the Feruchemical Table, which I didn't mean by saying "spiritual/mental." And that's what I am claiming - storing proper memories would remove your intent because intent is in your mind, not in your spirit web. But your understanding is just one part of intent, the other is your will - that's determination. We can agree to disagree in the end.

Yeah. You'd made a point early on that it had to be a Discrete storage like Copper and not a scaled attribute, and I was stuck on refuting that part: it doesnt fit the known behavior with the mania tapping effect and also those options arent incompatible since we have several examples of feruchemical attributes that are both.   

The rest of that is me trying to wrap my head around your weird memory assertion that Intent cant be an attribute because it's redundant to Copper.  And you keep saying Intent is in your mind so it cant be in your Spiritweb, but the fact that Memories can be stolen with hemalurgy proves an attribute can be both (or at least exist in a grey area of it).  

But we can agree to disagree.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

7 minutes ago, Quantus said:

And you keep saying Intent is in your mind so it cant be in your Spiritweb, but the fact that Memories can be stolen with hemalurgy proves an attribute can be both (or at least exist in a grey area of it).  

Memories aren't actually on the table for Hemalurgy. 

Copper can take the ability to have better memory in general via Hemalurgic spikes, such as we see with TenSoon, but specific memories are not part of the Spiritweb itself. 

Spoiler

Firefight Atlanta signing (Jan. 24, 2015)

ccstat

Vasher uses Awakening in a very interesting way, off-stage, to modify the memories of the girl he rescues. Can Hemalurgy do the same thing if used carefully?

Brandon Sanderson

*long pause* No, I don't really think that it can. Nobody has asked that before, but just looking at the way the magics work, I don't think that is something that Hemalurgy is capable of doing.

Now, maybe it's possible to Hemalurgically steal specific memories with highly, highly Invested beings like Yumi or Shardic Vessels because their Realmatic aspects begin to blend together more, but that's just a hypothesis. 

Edited March 5, 2024 by Trusk'our