Hemalurgy

[Silvers]

Hemalurgy constructs are created by metal spikes placed in specific points on a human body (except Kandra of course). Vin however had an earring that enhanced her bronze. So can you gain attributes from hemalurgy without changing human form but what sort of limitations are put on this. I'm just imagining someone with a hundred metal rings for allomantic enhancements, this would create a great weakness to soothing of course but grant great power as well.

It just seems a bit odd for steel inquisitors to have to change so much to gain their power if it could have been done without altering the human. They would be just as controllable with the same amount of spikes. Spikes need to be placed in certain places depending on the power transferred as well, so it seems that obtaining a small amount of spikes might not have any significant effect but obtaining more would be cause for a change in "humanity".

Even people who know of hemalurgy do not know the places to place each type of spike, the knowledge died with the steel inquisitors & TLR.

So what do you guys think of Hemalurgy? I think it will only be introduced in the books by accidental events. Not used to create Steel Inquisitors and such.

[Eric]

I think it's probably the most terrifyingly potent of the magic systems on Scadrial, and possibly in the entire Cosmere. I'd be very frightened but utterly unsurprised to learn that it can steal, and thus grant, the use of every type of Investiture.

[Zas678 he/him]

The Soothing problem can also be solved. You can get mental Fortitude (the spike TenSoon has), and that makes you more resistant to soothing-mind-control. It's why TenSoon was able to pull out his spike when he had four spikes- because his mental Fortitude spikes gave him enough resistance.

[Thor he/him]

The Soothing problem can also be solved. You can get mental Fortitude (the spike TenSoon has), and that makes you more resistant to soothing-mind-control. It's why TenSoon was able to pull out his spike when he had four spikes- because his mental Fortitude spikes gave him enough resistance.

I thought that the Blessing of Presence didn't add or subtract from the Soothing/Rioting/Other weakness, but broke even.

Abstraction for example: Say each Hemalurgic spike subtracts -1 from one's mental defense. So the Blessing of Potency would give -2 to defense, a Bronze Hemalurgic spike (ala Vin's earing) gives -1. The Blessing of Presence is -2 for being a pair of Hemalurgic spikes, but adds +2 because of its mental enhancing powers, for a net +0, or no change overall. So you can't become more resistant by adding a lot of Blessings of Presence, you just break even (on the weakness side, but you'd get progressively more twisted physically, mentally and spiritually by the Hemalurgic magic.)

Also, I believe it is the pieces of someone's soul being stapled onto your soul that warp the being, not the physical aspect of the spikes. Even if the Inquisitor spikes were a lot smaller, said Inquisitor would still be changed into something that wasn't completely human. IIRC, it has also been speculated that the Human Attribute spikes warp the host more than Allomantic/Feruchemical spikes, as evidenced by Koloss (normal humans changed rather drastically with only 4 spikes, while Inquisitors have upwards of 8 and are still relatively human, especially Marsh with 20+) and Kandra (who are granted sapience with only two spikes).

[Telcontar]

I have a question for you experts of the mistborn-trilogy and AoL. (Does this sound insulting for a native-speaker? I'm not sure...)

It is said that Hemalurgy steals abilities from people, giving them to others. So a spike always has to get charged, before it can be of use, right?

Was Vin's earring charged? It's been a while since I've read the books, so I honestly don't remember. It must have been, since she's better with detecting Allomancy when wearing the ring.

IIRC Spook got spiked with a broken sword which had been directed to the right place by Ruin (?). But that spike made him a Thug, didn't it? So it too, must've been charged before. Which is unlikely, since, being used as a sword, the sword (as a spike) would have lost all it's power in the process.

But if both (the ring and the sword-part) had not been charged, how could they grant powers? Plus, when Vin is taking her earring off, the ring should continue to lose Power.

Also. What about Wax's earring? Or any earring the members of that church use?

Hope you can enlighten me.

[Triasmus]

One thug stabbed the sword through the heart of another thug to try to kill spook. Vin's mom killed her sister with the earring, then put the earring into Vin's ear (which means that her sister would/have been a seeker if she snapped).

Wax's earring is apparently part of a melted down inquisitor spike. I don't think we know what it does, if anything. There's some theories though. For all we know (I think) it might be trying to splice whatever power onto the wrong part of the body, so it does nothing besides opening a hole in the spiritweb through which Harmony can talk to Wax.

[Odium's_Shard]

This 'opening a hole' to commune with deity thing has been mentioned in a different thread, which spoke of when people did it pre-Ascension. I also had the idea that a spike that kills and then is placed, but not in the right order, opens one up to the deity, and warps slightly. But other's stated that it must have a charge of some descriptions.

Also, as to the OP:

Hemalurgy constructs are created by metal spikes placed in specific points on a human body (except Kandra of course).

Kandra used to be Mistwraiths, which used to be Feruchemists (before Rashek changed them all into Mistwraiths to prevent anyone rising against him) and so presumably have the same Spirit points.

[Telcontar]

Thank you!

That part of Vin's sister had escaped my attention appearently. I had forgotten the other part about spiking the thug to get to Spook.

[Odium's_Shard]

It isn't explicitly mentioned by Vin. In fact, it is revealed to her by Ruin himself (appearing as her brother in the cache) that he used her insane mother (insanity being a breach in the Spirit's defense enough for Ruin to access her) to spike Vin using her Seeker sister. Apparently, Vin's noble father was unfaithful on more than one occasion, and of decent Allomantic stock.

List:

One Mistborn.

One Seeker.

One insane lover.

[Telcontar]

So what do you guys think of Hemalurgy? I think it will only be introduced in the books by accidental events. Not used to create Steel Inquisitors and such.

When I read AoL and Wax was thinking about the kidnapped ladies, they came to the conclusion that the ladies were probably kidnapped to breed Allomancers. My first thought however was to get these ladies to steal their powers, as we've seen with the Inquisitors searching for Allomancers and steal their powers.

Think about it. When you have some Allomancers, some of them won't be of any use, others might oppose themselves to be used. And it would take much longer to use them, as they have to grow up before anything else. So just wait, find out if they have powers, steal them and make yourself powerful.

[Odium's_Shard]

Maybe, Mile's comment about the 'men of red and gold' refers to this, as he says the 'will get you', also. Maybe Southerner in Elendel steal young Allomancers to make themselves powerful, as Ruin sahred with them before his death the secrets of Hemalurgy, just to spite Sazed.

[Telcontar]

yeah, just to RUIN his plans

[Thought]

Hemalurgy constructs are created by metal spikes placed in specific points on a human body (except Kandra of course).

Actually, if I recall correctly, TenSoon noted that when he put the Blessing of Potency back in that he had to place them in certain spots in his body to gain the benefit. Likewise, I think, but am not sure, that it was noted that his guards had their spikes in their shoulders.

Vin however had an earring that enhanced her bronze. So can you gain attributes from hemalurgy without changing human form but what sort of limitations are put on this.

In HoA, Sazed notes that human attributes distort more than allomantic or feruchemical ones, and that the placement of the spike is also important (he implies that the placement is the main difference between koloss and inquisitors, but I could just be reading too much into it).

It just seems a bit odd for steel inquisitors to have to change so much to gain their power if it could have been done without altering the human.

While it might be possible, Ruin was the one who influenced TLR to make the Inquisitors, Koloss, and Kandra. He had an invested interest in making as broken of tools as possible.

Wax's earring is apparently part of a melted down inquisitor spike. I don't think we know what it does, if anything. There's some theories though. For all we know (I think) it might be trying to splice whatever power onto the wrong part of the body, so it does nothing besides opening a hole in the spiritweb through which Harmony can talk to Wax.

Additionally, it might just have lost all its power. As indicated by Marsh spiking Penrod, the power in the spike seems to be irrelevant for Ruin communicating with the individual.

[Thor he/him]

I have a question for you experts of the mistborn-trilogy and AoL. (Does this sound insulting for a native-speaker? I'm not sure...)

*snip, as it has already been answered, and answered well*

Nope, not insulting at all. It is rather complimenting, in fact.

When I read AoL and Wax was thinking about the kidnapped ladies, they came to the conclusion that the ladies were probably kidnapped to breed Allomancers. My first thought however was to get these ladies to steal their powers, as we've seen with the Inquisitors searching for Allomancers and steal their powers.

Think about it. When you have some Allomancers, some of them won't be of any use, others might oppose themselves to be used. And it would take much longer to use them, as they have to grow up before anything else. So just wait, find out if they have powers, steal them and make yourself powerful.

I think a lot of the readers were thinking Hemalurgy at first with the kidnapping (I know I did), but I failed to take Sazed into account at the time (and Marsh, as well). Both of them would make certain that almost all knowledge of Hemalurgy was either destroyed or at the very least hidden with beings who know the consequences of splicing souls together, Kandra.

As Thought says, Kandra/mistwraiths do have bind points, though it is unknown whether the corresponding bind points are in similar locations for humans (ex: a Bronze spike goes into the Human earlobe to grant Allomantic Bronze, do Kandra have a Bronze bind point in the earlobe? or is it somewhere else?)

[CrazyRioter she/her]

In HoA, Sazed notes that human attributes distort more than allomantic or feruchemical ones, and that the placement of the spike is also important (he implies that the placement is the main difference between koloss and inquisitors, but I could just be reading too much into it).

I'm fairly sure Inquisitors were only given allomantic and feruchemical spikes.

Additionally, it might just have lost all its power. As indicated by Marsh spiking Penrod, the power in the spike seems to be irrelevant for Ruin communicating with the individual.

I'd imagine it would have to have some power left in order to allow communication, though probably the power is negligible at this point as far as allomancy/feruchemy is concerned.

[Kurkistan he/him]

I have a question for you experts of the mistborn-trilogy and AoL. (Does this sound insulting for a native-speaker? I'm not sure...)

Just as a native-speaker note, saying "experts of the mistborn-trilogy and AoL" could be interpreted as some level of irony, ranging from self-deprecation to straight sarcasm depending on how you read it.

While a "principle of charity" guides us to assume that you aren't being sarcastic if there is a reasonable interpretation otherwise, you might be better off saying "those of you who are more familiar with the mistborn universe" if you want to avoid any possibility of misinterpretation.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Thought]

I'm fairly sure Inquisitors were only given allomantic and feruchemical spikes.

Yup. Sorry if that wasn't clear. My parenthetical was that Sazed implies that the deformation we see in Koloss, as opposed to the deformation we see in inquisitors, is the result of Koloss spike placement, rather than the result of Koloss spikes containing human attributes. The implication is the it may have been possible to grossly deform Inquisitors, if their allomantic spikes had been placed differently. This wasn't a suggestion that inquisitor spikes contain human attributes.

[Commander Spoonface he/him]

Yup. Sorry if that wasn't clear. My parenthetical was that Sazed implies that the deformation we see in Koloss, as opposed to the deformation we see in inquisitors, is the result of Koloss spike placement, rather than the result of Koloss spikes containing human attributes. The implication is the it may have been possible to grossly deform Inquisitors, if their allomantic spikes had been placed differently. This wasn't a suggestion that inquisitor spikes contain human attributes.

Although, on multiple occasions they show greater strength and agility than normal humans. This could be the result of burning Pewter, but for some Inquisitors it could have been more efficient to give them physical strength spikes.

[Triasmus]

I'm almost 99% sure that Sazed writes in one of the epigraphs that's it's ironic that the human attribute spikes deform other humans while making kandra, who are "animals", more human.

Huh. Would a Cat Inquisitor with human attribute spikes be Human-ish?

[Windrunner he/him]

Hemalurgic spikes change people physically, depending on which powers are granted, where the spike is placed, and how many spikes someone has. Inquisitors, for instance, are changed drastically from the humans they used to be. Their hearts are in different places from those of humans, and their brains rearrange to accommodate the lengths of metal jabbed through their eyes. Koloss are changed in even more drastic ways.

One might think that kandra are changed most of all. However, one must remember that new kandra are made from mistwraiths, and not humans. The spikes worn by the kandra cause only a small transformation in their hosts—leaving their bodies mostly like that of a mistwraith, but allowing their minds to begin working. Ironically, while the spikes dehumanize the koloss, they give a measure of humanity to the kandra.

I think that the koloss were more intelligent than we wanted to give them credit for being. For instance, originally, they used only spikes the Lord Ruler gave them to make new members. He would provide the metal and the unfortunate skaa captives, and the koloss would create new "recruits."

Indeed both the spike type and position determine how much the receiver is warped. I imagine if you used the iron spikes in other locations on a person they wouldn't become koloss but something else. I do think that human spikes twist people more then Allomantic and Feruchemical ones.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Windrunner

[Satsuoni he/him]

I'm almost 99% sure that Sazed writes in one of the epigraphs that's it's ironic that the human attribute spikes deform other humans while making kandra, who are "animals", more human.

Huh. Would a Cat Inquisitor with human attribute spikes be Human-ish?

All cat inquisitors have human attribute spikes for sentience This is theoretical, of course, but I do believe that addition of such spikes will make them more humanoid in appearance, especially the addition of human physical attributes. Oh, by the way, found this in the Interview database:

What is happening with Hemalurgy, essentially, is that you're driving a spike through a specific point on a person's body and ripping off a piece of their soul. It sticks to the spike on the Spiritual Realm. Then, you place that spike on someone else in a specific place (not exactly the same place, but on the right spiritual pressure point) and 'hot wire' the spirit to give it Hemalurgy or Feruchemy. It's like you're fooling the spiritual DNA, creating a work-around. Or, in some cases, changing the spirit to look like something else, which has the immediate effect of distorting the body and transforming it into a new creature.

So, the spirit would look more human, the cat will look more human, but not quite. Also, the Allomantic/ Hemalirgic/ Feruchemy spike will just change the part of your spirit that gives the power, not the part that is responsible for your body, so the change will be less physical. (I believe Brandon himself said that the human attribute spikes are more deforming, but I am not sure).