Twinborn Ability Pairings

[Crow he/him]

Hello hello! Me and my friends were discussing twinborn ability pairs and synergies (I'm sure something like this has already been posted a few times) but I just want to see what others thoughts were on cool twinborn synergies! I though of electrum allomancy mixed with steel or zinc feruchemy. My reasoning being that burning electrum and tapping steel for physical speed or zinc for mental speed could allow you some inhuman reaction time and allow you to dodge bullets. Thoughts?

Side note: would using hemalurgy to give yourself copper, zinc, and electrum feruchemy just make you the worlds best programmer?

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 minutes ago, Crow said:

Hello hello! Me and my friends were discussing twinborn ability pairs and synergies (I'm sure something like this has already been posted a few times) but I just want to see what others thoughts were on cool twinborn synergies!

Welcome to the Shard! Nice to see another Mistborn fan!

Allomantic pewter plus Feruchemical steel; you can Store the excess speed from pewter to increase your total Feruchemical power, plus when you Tap physical speed you increase the speed at which you Burn your Allomantic metals. That means you can effectively super Flare your pewter to gain tons of strength, durability, dexterity, and you get more speed on top of it. Just be sure to consume lots of extra pewter, cause you're goanna go through it fast via this method.

Allomantic bronze plus Feruchemcial tin; you can Store your Bronzesense in your Tinmind, allowing you to superpower your Seeking abilities.

Allomantic electrum plus Feruchemical nicrosil; if F-nicrosil does in fact allow you to decrease your Allomantic powers for a time and later let you Tap to increase their strength, you should be able to more directly access the SR (Spiritual Realm) and see a more expansive vision of the future than normal, kind of like if you were to Burn Atium and duralumin together.

Since Storing an attribute Feruchemically doesn't change the effects of the attribute (like if you were to Store wakefulness from caffeine, it wouldn't be regular wakefulness) and you can Store the strength boost provided by Allomantic pewter, a pewter Compounder should be able to Store and Tap a magical boost to muscles strength rather than needing to Store and Tap actual muscle mass, which greatly lessens the cap they have on their total strength, and their reduction in dexterity would be nonexistent.

[Crow he/him]

Thanks!! I actually never thought of the A-electrum F-nicrosil combo that would be awesome! (I actually never knew nictrosil worked like that lol I guess I better go back to my research on coppermind)

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Crow said:

Thanks!! I actually never thought of the A-electrum F-nicrosil combo that would be awesome! (I actually never knew nictrosil worked like that lol I guess I better go back to my research on coppermind)

Well, that's how it's been theorized to work, but we don't know for certain yet. It would make the most sense though, so most people on the Shard believe that's how it works.

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Crow said:

Hello hello! Me and my friends were discussing twinborn ability pairs and synergies (I'm sure something like this has already been posted a few times) but I just want to see what others thoughts were on cool twinborn synergies

There is a whole topic dedicated just for that. Feel free to respond and expand with your ideas: 

 

7 hours ago, Crow said:

I though of electrum allomancy mixed with steel or zinc feruchemy. My reasoning being that burning electrum and tapping steel for physical speed or zinc for mental speed could allow you some inhuman reaction time and allow you to dodge bullets. Thoughts?

True. However the problem with A-electrum is that you see so many shadows around you that it's hard for you to actually process them all. It doesn't work like A-Atium, which also enhances your mental capabilities to process those shadows. In that case it's a great idea to pair A-electrum with F-zinc, because you will finally be able to use 100% of information provided to you by those shadows and use it like A-Atium. A-electrum alone is really hard to master. Even if you pair it with F-steel you would still have a hard time using electrum shadows.

Spoiler

Questioner

How does electrum work?

Brandon Sanderson

Electrum can see future shadows only as far in the future as is done with atium in the books. They use it to counter atium in that they see their own future shadow fighting, and if they see their shadow get hit by an attack, they know to avoid that attack, and they change their own future. This compounds the future shadows they see, which makes it practically as effective at countering atium as atium itself.

While the scope of an electrum shadow is very limited, it could be useful in many situations. Like if you were playing tennis, you’d be able to look at your shadow and tell if you managed to hit the ball or not, and adjust accordingly. That would still take a lot of practice to master, but it could be very effective.

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 15, 2016)

 

7 hours ago, Crow said:

Side note: would using hemalurgy to give yourself copper, zinc, and electrum feruchemy just make you the worlds best programmer?

Why F-electrum? For determination? Personally I don't like F-electrum that much - you get either manic episodes or severe depression, both are rather inconvenient. F-bronze for wakefulness would be better. But yes, potentially.

[Crow he/him]

Thanks for the link to the other discussion! I actually didn't know that A-electrum was multiple shadows lol I thought it was just one. Also cant feruchemists fill metalminds while they sleep? If so you technically could fill your electrummind while you sleep somewhat avoiding the severe depression thing.

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, Crow said:

Also cant feruchemists fill metalminds while they sleep?

No, only Bronzeminds can be filled while sleeping. 

Spoiler

Raddatatta

In Era 1, Sazed says the only thing you can Feruchemically store while sleeping is wakefulness, but in Era 2 they have the sky ships that require everyone to be storing weight to fly and they don't land while people sleep. Was Sazed just wrong, or is that a difference between normal Feruchemy and using the unsealed metalminds?

Brandon Sanderson

Unsealed metalminds, I am moving toward complete—you probably already guessed this—mechanical uses of Investiture, and this indeed is a step toward that. And so we are stepping toward having a little machine that gives you powers. That's what the world wants to try to find. And this is—this being mechanical—we'll just say that the medallions and the things that they're building have more of a life-force, more of an Identity of their own than a traditional metalmind does, even though they're unkeyed and all of this stuff.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

[Crow he/him]

Oh good to know

[Trusk'our he/him]

13 hours ago, Crow said:

Also cant feruchemists fill metalminds while they sleep? If so you technically could fill your electrummind while you sleep somewhat avoiding the severe depression thing.

While you cannot Store Feruchemical attributes while sleeping through conventional methods (with the exception of Feruchemical bronze), you can Store attributes with the Malwish medallions.

Spoiler

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Raddatatta

In Era 1, Sazed says the only thing you can Feruchemically store while sleeping is wakefulness, but in Era 2 they have the sky ships that require everyone to be storing weight to fly and they don't land while people sleep. Was Sazed just wrong, or is that a difference between normal Feruchemy and using the unsealed metalminds?

Brandon Sanderson

Unsealed metalminds, I am moving toward complete—you probably already guessed this—mechanical uses of Investiture, and this indeed is a step toward that. And so we are stepping toward having a little machine that gives you powers. That's what the world wants to try to find. And this is—this being mechanical—we'll just say that the medallions and the things that they're building have more of a life-force, more of an Identity of their own than a traditional metalmind does, even though they're unkeyed and all of this stuff.

You could also choose to Store attributes right before sleeping (since you're not going to be using those attributes at that time anyway), as most people are technically still awake after laying down to sleep anywhere from 5 to 20 minutes, which is time you could spend Storing a significant fraction of your strength, physical speed, mental speed, Fortune, health, weight, senses, or determination.

[Crow he/him]

3 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

You could also choose to Store attributes right before sleeping (since you're not going to be using those attributes at that time anyway), as most people are technically still awake after laying down to sleep anywhere from 5 to 20 minutes, which is time you could spend Storing a significant fraction of your strength, physical speed, mental speed, Fortune, health, weight, senses, or determination.

Or if your a crazy person like me this window is more like an hour to an hour and a half lol. This is a really good idea!

[Trusk'our he/him]

12 minutes ago, Crow said:

Or if your a crazy person like me this window is more like an hour to an hour and a half lol.

Lol, often me as well (such as right now, actually) 

12 minutes ago, Crow said:

This is a really good idea!

Thanks! I appreciate the appreciation!

[Crow he/him]

Someone on the discord pointed out that the increased comprehension from F-zinc may split A-electrum shadows. Their argument makes sense but I also feel that if that were true then people reacting to atium shadows would split the atium shadows. Thoughts?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Crow said:

Someone on the discord pointed out that the increased comprehension from F-zinc may split A-electrum shadows. Their argument makes sense but I also feel that if that were true then people reacting to atium shadows would split the atium shadows. Thoughts?

That is the purpose of the atium vs atium showdown. Once two people can see the future their decision making process changes which changes the future for the other one. 

Electrum works on this same idea. As soon as you see your own future, the atium user suddenly sees a flood of shadows as well. 

With that understanding, looking at another person's future via atium only shows you 1 outcome because they can't see the future at all. 

Seeing your own future shows you all of the potential futures. 

I don't know if determination or zinc would help more to narrow it down to the fewest shadows. I imagine that zinc may cause more shadows to appear as you make decisions faster but you will keep up with it to a great extent. 

The real goal here would be attempting to sift through the beneficial futures vs the non beneficial ones. 

All that said, I have never really subscribed to the Feruchemical zinc Allomantic electrum bandwagon for this reason. I feel like the more you think and process your future the more likely you are to flood your brain and vision with more shadows. In fact we see Vin defeat atium, not by over thinking it, but by under thinking it. Waiting and refusing to allow her mind to make a decision until the last second allows her to get an edge. The entire purpose of zinc is to think faster to get an edge, which is contrary to the best example of using wits to beat future sight we have. 

I think zinc would pair far better with pewter and steel for any combat applications. 

F steel beats atium when tapped seriously on its own anyways. Doesn't matter if you can see the future when your opponent can temporarily break the sound barrier. 

[Crow he/him]

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't know if determination or zinc would help more to narrow it down to the fewest shadows. I imagine that zinc may cause more shadows to appear as you make decisions faster but you will keep up with it to a great extent. 

The real goal here would be attempting to sift through the beneficial futures vs the non beneficial ones. 

While you make some good points my personal theory on this is imagine you are in a fight all you have to do is burn electrum for the shadows and tap zinc for mental speed then move to the shadow that doesn't get punched/shot/etc. I may be wayyyyyy underthinking this as I am much newer to this but that is my theory/reasoning. (Side note you make a good point about F-steel but I was going more for unique synergy than optimal abilities)

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, Crow said:

While you make some good points my personal theory on this is imagine you are in a fight all you have to do is burn electrum for the shadows and tap zinc for mental speed then move to the shadow that doesn't get punched/shot/etc. I may be wayyyyyy underthinking this as I am much newer to this but that is my theory/reasoning. (Side note you make a good point about F-steel but I was going more for unique synergy than optimal abilities)

It is a unique synergy for sure. Jumping from one shadow to the next to avoid dying is probably a great idea to avoid dying. 

It doesn't change the fact that all of your shadows will continue to multiply and move around as you make decisions. But if there are 20 safe shadows to step into at any time then you should be able to think through it just fine. And you would probably be able to juggle that with taking note of where your enemy is as well. 

It would be as confusing and discombobulated as fighting atium vs atium except you would not need to guess if you survive. Although... like a road trip every choice you make will narrow down the outcome more and more. 

When running through a minefield you may not realize your safe shadow has suddenly become the one that took the last step.  

There could be a safe shadow that suddenly erupts into no safe shadows. A gamble still the same.  

[Crow he/him]

Quite a few good points

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Crow said:

Someone on the discord pointed out that the increased comprehension from F-zinc may split A-electrum shadows. Their argument makes sense but I also feel that if that were true then people reacting to atium shadows would split the atium shadows. Thoughts?

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

That is the purpose of the atium vs atium showdown. Once two people can see the future their decision making process changes which changes the future for the other one. 

Electrum works on this same idea. As soon as you see your own future, the atium user suddenly sees a flood of shadows as well. 

With that understanding, looking at another person's future via atium only shows you 1 outcome because they can't see the future at all. 

Seeing your own future shows you all of the potential futures. 

I don't know if determination or zinc would help more to narrow it down to the fewest shadows. I imagine that zinc may cause more shadows to appear as you make decisions faster but you will keep up with it to a great extent. 

A-electrum already shows multiple split shadows for this reason. I don't think tapping F-zink would change anything because those shadows already show you shadows, which are the result of you reacting to other shadows. That's why burning A-electrum works against A-Atium, because you see your future possibilities and can react to them and that splits shadows for A-Atium users.  All of those possibilities are already shown there in the first place, in this mess of many shadows, with F-zink you just finally can comprehend them. I don't think it would make more Shadows or narrow them down, you would be able to analyze most of them and pinpoint the useful ones. HoA ch 3:

Quote

Vin burned electrum. This created a cloud of images around her, shadows of possible things she could do in the future

 

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

All that said, I have never really subscribed to the Feruchemical zinc Allomantic electrum bandwagon for this reason. I feel like the more you think and process your future the more likely you are to flood your brain and vision with more shadows. In fact we see Vin defeat atium, not by over thinking it, but by under thinking it. Waiting and refusing to allow her mind to make a decision until the last second allows her to get an edge. The entire purpose of zinc is to think faster to get an edge, which is contrary to the best example of using wits to beat future sight we have. 

Vin did overthink it. She reacted to Zane's future shadow of herself, she reacted to the future, which splitted her shadow for Zane. WoA ch 47:

Quote

He knows where I'll strike before I do.
Vin raised her dagger, blood trickling down face and side, thunderous drumbeats booming in her mind. The mist was nearly up to her chin.
She cleared her mind. She didn't plan an attack. She didn't react to Zane as he ran toward her, dagger raised. She loosened her muscles and closed her eyes, listening to his footsteps. She felt the mist rise around her, churned by Zane's advent.
She snapped her eyes open. He had the dagger raised; it glittered as it swung. Vin prepared to attack, but didn't think about the strike; she simply let her body react.
And she watched Zane very, very carefully.
He flinched just slightly to the left, open hand moving upward, as if to grab something.
There! Vin thought, immediately wrenching herself to the side, forcing her instinctive attack out of its natural trajectory. She twisted her arm—and dagger—midswing. She had been about to attack left, as Zane's atium had anticipated.
But, by reacting, Zane had shown her what she was going to do. Let her see the future. And if she could see it, she could change it.
They met. Zane's weapon took her in the shoulder. But Vin's knife took him in the neck. His left hand closed on empty air, snatching at a shadow that should have told him where her arm would be.

 

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

F steel beats atium when tapped seriously on its own anyways. Doesn't matter if you can see the future when your opponent can temporarily break the sound barrier. 

Well, mostly. But with A-Atium you react instinctively. Even someone without any combat experience like Yomen was able to strike Elend who was burning pewter. Atium allows you to see several seconds in advance, your body has enough time to react and move out of the way of a Steelrunner - but that depends on the distance. I think a Steelrunner can defeat a Seer, but a Seer still has chances to dodge that. 

[Crow he/him]

That was my original understanding of it. I guess I should add this to my list of questions for if I go to a book signing lol.