Thoughts on the future society of Scadrial

[Voidus]

I was just thinking about hemalurgy again and I had a thought about what would inevitably happen in scadrial. Once the population reaches the peak that the planer can support the population will also stabilise, once this happens there is some very interesting potential, given enough hemalurgic spikes and enough generations EVERY single person on the planet could eventually be given spikes granting both allomantic and feruchemical properties, most interesting will be those given compounding spikes (eventually everyone) as even with very limited amounts of both allomancy and feruchemy (as per the law of hemalurgic decay) you could still compound, and given the ability to compound it doesn't at all matter what your allomantic abilities are you could still store an (almost) limitless amount of an attribute, this means that eventually everyone on scadrial will probably be able to.

1. Gain 10x their current muscle mass whenever they want.

2. Travel faster than a speeding bullet... or say an elantrian?

3. Survive on no food, water or air.

4. Heal limitlessly.

5. Crush buildings with their weight.

6. Remember everything. (like where there enemies live.)

7. well you get the idea.

So basically this is an entire army of Miles that also needs no food, water or air and can zip around faster than a bendalloy misting while being able to crush buildings and (if one felt particularly suicidal) ignite the atmosphere of a planet with compounded brass.

Basically if you live on any planet other than Scadrial, you are going to die.

[Aradel]

I don't think it'd happen. But it's both scary and funny at the same time.

Makes me wonder if someone could have an inherited spike. Like the parent gets a spike in their heart, and when the parent dies or is ready to die, the heir implants the spike in themselves, and the next heir and so on. If it's a blessing spike, it may be re-charged every time it changes hosts.

Or it could be a kind of master-student thing, with one coinshot passing an A-steel spike to their student when they die. I'm imagining a supercharged spike within a few generations, but I don't know if spikes have a maximum charge or if charges from two or more people can be put in one spike.

[Voidus]

They should have a maximum storage, but I'm not sure about whether they can have attributes from different people. I don't think it's likely but it's definitely possible.

[Kurkistan]

Your "Scadralians, conquerors of the stars" vision of the future has some potential, I think.

Although perhaps not on a population-wide scale, I can imagine our heroes combating a small group who have augmented themselves to the point of god-hood with Hemalurgy, and who want to extend their reach to the stars, using their Allo/Ferro FTL (which I still haven't figured out, urgh) to pillage the powers of other Cosmere worlds, as a (remotely possible) story arc for the third trilogy.

[Voidus]

Yeah, I don't think it will feature in the future trilogies on a population-wide scale but I do think that given the incredible powers you can achieve with compounding, it does negate hemalurgic decay quite a bit. Now that I think about it given that a single spike can be split into several pieces this could be even more achievable, it does accelerate the decay but ANY amount of allomantic power allows you to compound, it's just about how effectively.

[Windrunner]

I don't think it'd happen. But it's both scary and funny at the same time.

Makes me wonder if someone could have an inherited spike. Like the parent gets a spike in their heart, and when the parent dies or is ready to die, the heir implants the spike in themselves, and the next heir and so on. If it's a blessing spike, it may be re-charged every time it changes hosts.

Or it could be a kind of master-student thing, with one coinshot passing an A-steel spike to their student when they die. I'm imagining a supercharged spike within a few generations, but I don't know if spikes have a maximum charge or if charges from two or more people can be put in one spike.

Spikes do have a maximum charge, but they can be repeatedly charged from different people

A spike can only hold so much of a Hemalurgic charge, so they could not create spikes that granted infinite strength, no matter how many people those spikes killed and drew power from.

As for Scadrialeese domination of the cosmere, I'd say it's possible but I don't think Harmony would let it happen. He could easily justify directly using his power to stop them if he so chose, Ruining some of his own people to Preserve the people of the other worlds. Or he could get the Faceless Immortals in there, putting people who are less violent and aggressive in charge,like TenSoon did for Wax.

Mass Hemalurgy is frightening, but it is possible, especially considering the people in the Southern Hemisphere might still know how to do it. Hemalurgy was actually best known of the Metallic Arts before Rashek's Ascension, so the knowledge might have stayed with them, whereas it died out under the Lord Ruler's reign. Another thing to remember is that the farther we go into the future, the more the Allomantic and Feruchemical genes diffuse. A large portion of the population could end up having powers.

However, I think that Hemalurgy might not be extremely threatening. Barring some Allomantic Holocaust where metalborn are slaughtered for spikes, I think it's pretty unlikely that this is going to be legal.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Windrunner

[Voidus]

but they can be repeatedly charged from different people

When did we find that out?

However, I think that Hemalurgy might not be extremely threatening. Barring some Allomantic Holocaust where metalborn are slaughtered for spikes, I think it's pretty unlikely that this is going to be legal.

That's what I'm thinking, especially if it is done on deathbeds and such, or without actually killing them, people could sell their abilities off (Think Drabs) yeah I suppose that Sazed would intervene at some point before it got to the world-hopping invaaders.

Oh actually another idea, compounding nicrosil don't forget, and actually if investiture can also boost allomantic ability then potentially this could reduce the effect of hemalurgic decay even more.

[Windrunner]

When did we find that out?

Sorry, somehow I backspaced half the quote, I'll edit my post, but here it is in it's entirety.

A spike can only hold so much of a Hemalurgic charge, so they could not create spikes that granted infinite strength, no matter how many people those spikes killed and drew power from.

So it's implied that spikes can be used to kill multiple people to increase their charge.

[Voidus]

Ah cheers, I thought it might have been from an interview I haven't seen yet and I got all excited I do need to go back and read through the epigraphs again, for some reason I never retain much information from them, ugh I need some copperminds

[Thought]

Hemalurgy was actually best known of the Metallic Arts before Rashek's Ascension...

Where was that mentioned? I thought that in HoA, Sazed stated that of the three arts, only Feruchemy was known before the conflict of Ruin came to a head.

[Voidus]

VEGASDEV (16 OCTOBER 2008)

Alendi's "Piercings of the Hero"?

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

This is part of the manipulation Ruin did during the classical era on Scadrial, before the coming of the Lord Ruler. Piercings, and Hemalurgy, were part of the world before the coming of Allomancy in its modern form. Then, they were seen as a means of communicating with deity—which, indeed, they were. Ruin manipulated this to make sure any Hero of Ages who came would be under his influence. The reference is included mostly to indicate that yes, Alendi was under Ruin's influence. He ignored Rashek, though. (At least, right up to the moment when everything went 'wrong' for Ruin, when Rashek killed his chosen Hero of Ages.)

I don't know about being the most well known but it was certainly known.

[Quantum Toast]

Where was that mentioned? I thought that in HoA, Sazed stated that of the three arts, only Feruchemy was known before the conflict of Ruin came to a head.

I remember reading something about ritual piercings being commonly used to communicate with the gods, but I'm not sure how well people actually understood how it worked.

[Thought]

Ah, here we are. Hero of Ages, ch 34:

Feruchemy, it should be noted, is the power of balance. Of the three powers, only it was known to men before the conflict between Preservation and Ruin came to a head.

This is, admittedly, a bit of a broad statement, since it could be construed to mean when Preservation first trapped Ruin, or it could just reference to the last year or two of the Mistborn series. However, given how allomancy is treated, I think we can safely assume that, at the very least, this period is limited to Rashek's ascension. Namely, Alendi was a misting (Seeker), but it is noted repeatedly in Vin's research that Allomancy is essentially unknown prior to Rashek giving out Lerasium. He used the new fancy power as a bit of a bait and switch to help people forget about feruchemy and thus hide his secret. Since Allomancy existed, was used, but was basically unknown, I think it is likewise reasonable to assume even if Hemalurgy existed in the world, it was still "unknown." Much as it seems to be unknown in AoL even though Wax uses a Hemalurgic earring.

[Voidus]

Yeah I think it was probably something like the way that it is used during AoL, used but not really understood. Although actually, weren't all of those spikes from the dead inquisitors or something? Which would mean that they really have no idea in AoL, I think then that pre-ascension people would have had to know a bit more about it, but definitely not enough to make hemalurgic constructs like the Koloss or Kandra. (Do we have a term for those yet? if not I petition for hemalurgic constructs )

[Commander Spoonface]

Other options:

• Hemacytes
  
• Lurgopods
  
• Spiculecytes
  
• Da Heme's
  

[Windrunner]

Actually Hemalurgy was known Pre-Ascension. I think Brandon might have forgotten about this, he explains it so well that he's obviously given it some thought and Piercings of the Hero are canon.

VEGASDEV (16 OCTOBER 2008)

Alendi's "Piercings of the Hero"?

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

This is part of the manipulation Ruin did during the classical era on Scadrial, before the coming of the Lord Ruler. Piercings, and Hemalurgy, were part of the world before the coming of Allomancy in its modern form. Then, they were seen as a means of communicating with deity—which, indeed, they were. Ruin manipulated this to make sure any Hero of Ages who came would be under his influence. The reference is included mostly to indicate that yes, Alendi was under Ruin's influence. He ignored Rashek, though. (At least, right up to the moment when everything went 'wrong' for Ruin, when Rashek killed his chosen Hero of Ages.)

Source

[Commander Spoonface]

I don't really think that qualifies as "known". Honestly, the only person I can think of that we have seen in the series who "knew" hemalurgy was TLR. After all, he was able to use it to create Inquisitors and Kandra and Koloss and Harmony-knows-what-else with it, whereas other people (besides Ruin, obviously) didn't really know what they were doing, just that they were doing it.

It's like Vin using her "luck". She used Allomancy, but she didn't really know about Allomancy.

[Windrunner]

I don't think you can compare Hemalurgy to Allomancy in that way. Allomancy is raw and instinctive and flashy. Hemalurgy is complex and subtle. People can subconsciously burn metal but you can't accidentally stab someone in the right place with the right piece of metal and then accidentally stab that same piece of metal into someone else at a different right point. It's too complex to be pure happenstance.

These people obviously knew they were doing something, and had knowledge of what processes they needed to follow even if they didn't know why it worked. They wanted to communicate with a deity and knew how to do it. They may have only had the knowledge of how to do a few specific things, but they definitely knew something.

I wonder how Alendi ended up with piercings that were spikes?

[Sweetness]

I wonder how Alendi ended up with piercings that were spikes?

A lot of Earth cultures use piercings to signify different things. It makes sense that they could have on Scadrial too, especially with metal being so important.

[Windrunner]

I think I phrased that poorly. I was wondering why Alendi, a man so plagued by trying to do the right thing, end up with earrings that had been used to kill someone? Did he not know? If so, who gave them to it? Was it the Worldbringers? The only idea I had is that Alendi hoped that he was talking to Preservation, or was just looking for some council, or someone divine to tell him he was doing the right thing. I'm sure Ruin would have been happy to oblige because Alendi was playing right into his hands.

[Commander Spoonface]

Spikes don't need to kill someone, do they? I thought that as long as they pass through someone and then are placed in someone else, they still count.

Besides, the primary function of spikes pre-Acension seems to be communication with "god", which is Ruin in this case. That means that spikes don't have to be placed in a Heamlurgacilly active way, they just have to pierce the skin. An earring that one person uses and then gives to another person will not likely carry any significant part of that person's sDNA, but it may provide the contact with Ruin that signifies a religious experience.

And even if only a few people under unlikely circumstances had piercings that were actually Hemalurgic, that could easily be enough to embed the belief in culture, especially if Ruin wanted it to be that way.

[Windrunner]

I interpreted the people don't have to be killed by Hemalurgy quotes as they could be saved by modern medicine if they were stabbed like on the operating table. It doesn't seem likely that they would survive, only possible with the right treatment. Poking someone with a pin in the right place seems unlikely to make a spike, although I don't have any evidence for that. I guess it's up to your interpretation.

We've never seen spikes that weren't placed in bind points, so we don't know if putting them elsewhere would still allow Ruin to communicate. I don't think it would, he needs to be able to tap into your Spiritweb. I don't think that an earring given from one person to another would give any portion of their sDNA away. We don't even know if attributes can be stolen from ears. All the times we've seem spikes made it's been through the heart (although that's not the only place), the ear seems minor to have something stolen. Also there's no evidence that you can steal just part of someone's attribute. Brandon says that spike size doesn't matter so even a spike the size of an earring would steal all of an attribute, not just pick up a tiny charge.

Also, I really see the creation of a spike and it getting put in the right location as something that only happens when someone informed is involved in the process. Many people may not have Hemalurgically charged spikes, but in my mind there's no way the few that were created happened "under unlikely circumstances". The process is just too involved. Brandon said the people knew what they were doing, so Ruin probably told them somehow, got a madman to spike someone important to impart the knowledge of limited Hemalurgy to them. I do agree that there's no way they could make Hemalurgic constructs though, Ruin wouldn't have told them that.

[Voidus]

Yeah, I think that the spike would have to have a pretty strong hemalurgic charge on it for someone to be able to be influenced by Ruin, I can't remember the exact quote but the whole reason that ruin can talk to people who have been spike is that splicing a piece of sDNA into yourself leaves a vulnerability, the more you do this, the more vulnerable you are to manipulation, which is why Ruin could only talk to Vin but could fully control the Koloss and Inquisitors, I don't think that just sharing an earring would count, otherwise I'm sure that half the nobility would be under Ruins control (Think about how many of their earrings would be family heirlooms)

[Thought]

People can subconsciously burn metal but you can't accidentally stab someone in the right place with the right piece of metal and then accidentally stab that same piece of metal into someone else at a different right point. It's too complex to be pure happenstance.

Spook would like to have words with you.

These people obviously knew they were doing something, and had knowledge of what processes they needed to follow even if they didn't know why it worked.

I must disagree: they obviously had no idea what they were doing, or what the process they needed to follow was. The Terris religion is far too devoted to Preservation and too opposed to Ruin to intentionally communicate with Ruin, or to intentionally kill and rip pieces of Preservation out of some people to implant in others.

The fact that the Terris religion didn't dominate the world supports this. If their earrings always produced an effect, then that would be a reliably miracle that anyone could experience. Part of what allows for religious diversity is the fact that there isn't reliable verification of one over the other.

They must not of know what they were really doing, how they were doing it, or why it worked. That really fits the definition of "unknown" rather well. Just because Ruin manipulated the world to introduce the occasionally Hemalurgic charge does not mean that it was known.

Spikes don't need to kill someone, do they? I thought that as long as they pass through someone and then are placed in someone else, they still count.

Sort of. Spikes rip out a piece of a person's soul, essentially. Sanderson has said that it is possible not to kill a person, but I believe he added the addendum that the process of stealing this would dramatically change the victim.

We don't even know if attributes can be stolen from ears.

Probably not, or else piercing needles would be the most common hemalurgic spike around.

Also, I really see the creation of a spike and it getting put in the right location as something that only happens when someone informed is involved in the process.

Marsh didn't know where to stab Penrod, yet he succeeded. Presumably the same was true of Vin's mother. As for the guy who stabbed Spook, there's no indication that he either had a Spike himself or was crazy, so there is no indication that Ruin was behind it. But the take-away is, people rarely were informed of the process in the instances we see.

Brandon said the people knew what they were doing...

What do you mean? Could you provide the quote for context?

[Triasmus]

I haven't gotten to the part where Marsh stabs Penrod (I don't even remember it from my first read-through). From what I remember, Marsh could barely make his own movements without Ruin stopping him. Unless a quote can be provided, I'm gonna assume that Ruin was controlling Marsh when he stabbed Penrod.

And I'm under the assumption that Ruin made a crazy person even crazier (vin's mom) and at the same time imparted knowledge on how/forced her to kill vin's sister in the way to get the hemalurgic earring (probably because Vin's mother was somehow spiked [and for all we know, Vin could have spikings in her family line all the way to the Lord Ruler's ascension]).