theory Crack theory about Vasher in stormlight 5

[Stormlit]

Crack theory bc why not

Disclaimer, the only proof of this theory is what I think would be cool to see and would lead to some crazy stuff in later stormlight books and idk i don't see a reason why it couldn't happen.

So, Zahel, Vasher, I think he will do the thingy he did in war breaker w the little girl but with the heralds, erasing huge chunks of memory to get rid of their madness (which would probably take huge amounts of investiture but idk shallan could do a heist bit and steal purified dor from the ghostbloods or something) and they, or some of them could become sane again and idk imagine taln being sane and fully capable or omg IMAGINE IF HES THE VILLAIN OF SECOND HALF bc he's righteously raging about what they did with the oathpact anyway idk Vasher hasn't been very present in the books and he's up to something clearly in rhythm of war and I don't think he's in stormlight just as a fun little cameo which I am a sucker for anyway but I think that his arc in the books will be explained and have a conclusion which could be he saves the day but at the same time kind of dooms humanity yet again or at least creates some other conflict for second half. In any case, we're gonna find out and Vivenna is also gonna be there and it will be so good even if it isn't what I just pitched lol. For additional proof(?) we're also dealing with some memory erasing stuff with Hoid and all that so maybe that inspires Vasher or the Radiants to that kinda thing. 

Anyways, first ever redacted theory guys, I hope someone is on board or on the other hand you can completely debunk it which is also fun, peace.

[CtrlAltDepressed]

 

5 hours ago, Stormlit said:

So, Zahel, Vasher, I think he will do the thingy he did in war breaker w the little girl but with the heralds, erasing huge chunks of memory to get rid of their madness (which would probably take huge amounts of investiture but idk shallan could do a heist bit and steal purified dor from the ghostbloods or something)

The only issue I see with this is that we have been told Vasher can only absorb stormlight to not die (his 1 breath a week equivalent) and hasnt yet figured out how to do awakening with it. The purified dor would make this possible, but that would require vasher to explain who he is (to convince someone to steal it for him, though he could honestly do it himself), which i dont see him doing outright. 

 

5 hours ago, Stormlit said:

idk imagine taln being sane and fully capable or omg IMAGINE IF HES THE VILLAIN OF SECOND HALF bc he's righteously raging about what they did with the oathpact

Love the idea of Taln gaining his sanity and showing us why Heralds are so revered. My issue here is that we have seen Taln get a moment of lucidity, and he was so thankful that humanity got 4500 years of progress before he was sent back. He wasn't angry at all. That is subject to change given more lucidity but he seemed genuinely grateful for what he was able to give humanity. 

I think if we are going to see the Heralds gain their sanity, even briefly, it will involve Bo-Ado-Mishram and / or the reforging of Honor. 

 

5 hours ago, Stormlit said:

I don't think he's in stormlight just as a fun little cameo which I am a sucker for anyway but I think that his arc in the books will be explained and have a conclusion which could be he saves the day but at the same time kind of dooms humanity yet again

Correct, he is not. Really his function from the storytelling perspective is that Brandon wanted Nightblood on Roshar and Vasher feels personally responsible for the sword. In world he is on Roshar because stormlight is much easier to get than breaths. I am sure he has other motivations (why is Vivenna hunting him and Nigthblood for instance?) but that is his primary reason for being there. 

 

Kind of the same point but Nightblood is also the doom that you speak of. We have seen massive destructive potential from Nightblood including what he did to Rayse and it has been implied that someone with more knowledge / Connection to the sword could do far more than we have seen. 

 

I really really want us to see Vasher truly wield Nightblood (even if it kills him) but if that were to happen, it definitely wont be until the back half of stormlight. It kinda sucks but Vasher has his story (potentially future stories) in the warbreaker series and this is not his story. He is involved clearly but I dont think its likely he will play a major role other than words of wisdom and bringing Nightblood. 

 

[alder24]

Hello, welcome to the Shard. I would encourage you to use more punctuation because it's hard to read such long posts with little to none of it. 

 

7 hours ago, Stormlit said:

So, Zahel, Vasher, I think he will do the thingy he did in war breaker w the little girl but with the heralds, erasing huge chunks of memory to get rid of their madness (which would probably take huge amounts of investiture but idk shallan could do a heist bit and steal purified dor from the ghostbloods or something)

That wouldn't necessarily require a lot of investiture. What Vasher did, or rather that that girl did, was to store her memories in her Breath - innate investiture which is part of her soul. Heralds could potentially do the same, store their memories in their innate investiture (if possible, I find it unlikely), or in Breaths. Hoid does that already, he has only 200 Breaths which allow him to store memories of his entire life. But it has to be innate investiture, Breaths not Dor. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Memory is tied to some level or portion of Spiritual Identity, or else Feruchemists would not be able to store it. So, Hoid lost memories at the end of Rhythm of War in his exchange with Odium. Would that mean part of his soul was stolen and then absorbed into Odium, and if so, what is stopping Odium from doing that with all of his enemies?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, what Odium split off is stuff that Hoid is storing in excess Investiture. (Basically, it was Breaths, in Hoid’s case.) And this sort of thing, where this extra memory… One of the reasons that Hoid is able to function better than, perhaps, some other very long-lived individuals is: he has found out how to keep some of this Identity in, shall we say, SD cards made of Investiture. Imagine that sort of thing. So what Odium was stealing from Hoid was straight out of an SD card. Which means that it’s not nearly as deeply ripping into someone’s soul, and it is also not nearly as noticeable.

But the other thing is: Hoid is directly in violation of certain agreements that have been made, which therefore exposes him to… He is lacking protections. As you’ll notice in the end of Book Three, where he’s like, “I need to be careful, because I am in violation.”

And so, there’s a couple things going on here. Number one, much more easy to access those memories. Number two, Hoid’s in direct violation and under no protections of any sorts of agreements and things like this.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

7 hours ago, Stormlit said:

and they, or some of them could become sane again

Unfortunately that's not enough. Taking their memories away might help but the problem lies within their souls. A human soul isn't made to last for thousands of years. And while you can take their memories away, you can’t take away that damage their soul suffered through thousands of years of torture. It will keep affecting them. Taking their memories will help, but won’t heal them. Heralds already know they can do such thing, Hoid told them, RoW ch 83-89 epigraphs:

Quote

"I remember so few of those centuries. I am a blur. A smear on the page. A gaunt stretch of ink, made all the more insubstantial with each passing day."

"Midius once told me … told me we could use Investiture … to enhance our minds, our memories, so we wouldn’t forget so much."

"Why would I want to remember?"

"Maybe if I remembered my life, I’d be capable of being confident like I once was. Maybe I’d stop vacillating when even the most simple of decisions is presented to me."

"Instead I think, if I were to remember my life in detail, I would become even worse. Paralyzed by my terrible actions. I should not like to remember all those I have failed."

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Why or how are the Heralds the only ones we've seen so far that are affected by magical maladies due to either their high Investiture or long lives?

Brandon Sanderson

I would argue the Fused are having the same situation, so they're not the only ones. The why and how... there's a whole host of things going on here. Like a lot of physical and mental illness, it's not one thing or the other. But it is a compound of other things.

One is going so long without certain protections that you kind of need to take. The human being's soul might be immortal, depending on your argument in the cosmere. (That's really up to you.) But they certainly aren't meant for thousands of years of existence, the same way that our bodies aren't. There's some of that.

There's some of the things they've been through. Like, legit trauma; this is not all simply a magical ailment. You've got people with PTSD, layers of PTSD on top of layers of PTSD, for thousands of years, bearing things that no human being without their level of Investiture would even be able to bear. You've got that manifestation, you've got their own sense of guilt.

And these things are all just kind of overlapping together with the fact they've been alive for so, so very long. And a lot of the people that you've seen otherwise have not been alive nearly... orders of magnitude more for the Heralds. The only people you've seen that are that old are: some of the dragons, Hoid, and Vessels of various Shards. And you're basically at that group. And this is a group who knows what they're doing. Either they were built like the dragons, this is part of their innate nature, that they are functionally immortal. Or you are getting the Shards. Or you're getting people that are 300 years old, which is a very different thing, cosmere-wise, than having lived for thousands and thousands of years, part of it being torture.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

7 hours ago, Stormlit said:

idk imagine taln being sane and fully capable or omg IMAGINE IF HES THE VILLAIN OF SECOND HALF bc he's righteously raging about what they did with the oathpact

But Taln is actually happy with what Heralds did, he perceives this as a fantastic gift to humanity, time to recover. OB ch 119:

Quote

“Four thousand years?” Taln asked again. “Ash…”
“We couldn’t continue— I … we thought…”
“Ash.” He took her hand again. “What a wonderful thing.”
Wonderful? “We left you, Taln.”
“What a gift you gave them! Time to recover, for once, between Desolations. Time to progress. They never had a chance before. But this time … yes, maybe they do.”
“No, Taln. You can’t be like this.”
“A wonderful thing indeed, Ash.”

 

7 hours ago, Stormlit said:

idk Vasher hasn't been very present in the books

He's on vacation. He brought Nightblood to Roshar and now he's resting, feeding on Stormlight instead of souls. He ran away. 

Spoiler

Questioner

So we already know that Vasher was Kaladin's trainer with a Shardblade, 'cause you told me that last time I asked you. So does Vasher just have a large mass of Biochromatic Breaths and that's how he's surviving, or is he somehow feeding off Stormlight while he is there?

Brandon Sanderson

He is feeding off of Stormlight, which is the primary reason why he came to Roshar. Investiture is easy to access in plentiful amounts.

Questioner

How did he know how to use Shardblades so well when he got there, is that related to how they created Nightblood

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he has experience with Roshar from hundreds of years ago.

White Sand vol.1 Orem signing (June 29, 2016)

 

7 hours ago, Stormlit said:

In any case, we're gonna find out and Vivenna is also gonna be there and it will be so good even if it isn't what I just pitched lol

Vivenna is there searching for Nightblood and Vasher. OB ch 108&110:

Quote

“Yeah. Borea thinks the weapon I’m chasing passed through their fortress a few years ago.”
“Your bounty is a … weapon?”
“And the one who brought it to your land. A Shardblade that bleeds black smoke.”

[...]

"When you boys next meet the swordsman who taught you that morning kata, warn him that I’m looking for him.”

 

7 hours ago, Stormlit said:

Anyways, first ever redacted theory guys, I hope someone is on board or on the other hand you can completely debunk it which is also fun, peace.

Overall, helping Heralds to sort out their memories is a good first step, but that alone is not good enough, it won't heal their damaged soul. 

Edited February 16 by alder24

[Returned]

Vasher is interesting in how versatile a character he can be in plot and narrative terms. I feel that he's one of the smartest people active in the Cosmere, one of the most knowledgeable about Investiture (in at least some applications, but it seems like those applications shed a lot of light on other aspects of Investiture and its uses), and he also is willing to go into the field.

So I think that he's valuable as, essentially, a consultant that could turbocharge the work of scholars and engineers who are newer to working with Investiture, like Navani and the Terris community on Scadrial. He's also an excellent planner and capable of subtlety, even if that isn't his main mode of action, so he could end up being someone who is pulling strings all over the place on Roshar (or start doing so). He's also really, really good in the field as a fantastic swordsman and all-around fighter, plus his deep experience with Awakening has given him some amazing lateral thinking abilities both in preparation and spontaneously.

His biggest issue is that he seems to have withdrawn so much from the world. I'm not sure he knows what he wants very clearly, or why, and is consumed with various regrets that have stacked up over the course of his long existence. The biggest question, to me, about what role he'll play in future stories is what (if anything) spurs him to act instead of languishing in his withdrawal.

I feel like when he becomes more active (which is what I expect for him) he's going to return more to his Five Scholars mode: engaging in advanced, applied research to push the boundaries of what Investiture can do in its various manifestations. I think he'll work with Navani in a well-defended place (since he'll be a major and irreplaceable asset to anyone he's working with) to produce knowledge but probably won't pursue things like understanding the nature of the Oathpact or dealing with individuals' traumas and other maladies.

Vasher is one of my favorite Cosmere characters and I'm definitely excited to see more of him and how he fits into other storylines. But I think that his biggest contribution to the future is going to be realizing that he is wrong about certain aspects of Nightblood's nature as an Awakened, sentient entity, and that that realization is going to run alongside his death, which will be caused by Nightblood one way or another.

[Colors]

Story-wise there's a reason why the Heralds are written as insane, because this isn't their story. They aren't the ones supposed to save the day. Taln is a solution Brandon has intentionally written off on purpose. 

[Shard of Frustration]

So the first problem I see with this theory is that Kalak says in one of the chapter epigraphs something about not being able to remember, essentially because he's existed for so long that new memories are overwriting old ones because his mind is out of storage space, so I don't think erasing memories will "fix" anything. Removing the random fragments of partially overwritten memories might make them more coherent immediately, but any further growth would involve them living for (months/years/decades) and forming new memories and bonds.

As for Taln, he 100% absolutely would not do that. If he was even mildly annoyed by being "abandoned" on Braise, he had to option to return at any second. He could change his mind at any point with a thought, possibly even an errant thought, and be back on Roshar.

[Duxredux he/him]

I have a note to add, though it's external to the Cosmere. Spoilers for Schlock Mercenary, the comic written by Howard Taylor, Brandon's good friend back when they were making Writing Excuses together.

Spoiler

Long story short, the titular character of Schlock Mercenary basically was an engineering solution to memory storage for extreme longevity for a species that solved immortality with one member living to 12 million years. The core of the technology was a brain that selectively erased portions of memory, basically keeping the individual in a state of adolescence.

Basically what you describe in selective memory erasure to address memory storage for immortality is one of the core features for the main character for one of Brandon's friend's story. Now Brandon can put his own spin on it, but anyone who has read both will probably spot the similarities. This is a totally out of universe reason for why I'm iffy that this is how it will go, while I think the actual mechanism you describe could work, though with complications.

As for this:

2 hours ago, Colors said:

Story-wise there's a reason why the Heralds are written as insane, because this isn't their story. They aren't the ones supposed to save the day. Taln is a solution Brandon has intentionally written off on purpose. 

Do you mind spoilers for the back 5 of Stormlight Archive? Brandon has told us some things.

Spoiler

The first 5 books are about the Radiants. The back 5 are about the Heralds, and Taln will have a book dedicated to him. This will be their story.

 

[Colors]

11 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I have a note to add, though it's external to the Cosmere. Spoilers for Schlock Mercenary, the comic written by Howard Taylor, Brandon's good friend back when they were making Writing Excuses together.

  Reveal hidden contents

Long story short, the titular character of Schlock Mercenary basically was an engineering solution to memory storage for extreme longevity for a species that solved immortality with one member living to 12 million years. The core of the technology was a brain that selectively erased portions of memory, basically keeping the individual in a state of adolescence.

Basically what you describe in selective memory erasure to address memory storage for immortality is one of the core features for the main character for one of Brandon's friend's story. Now Brandon can put his own spin on it, but anyone who has read both will probably spot the similarities. This is a totally out of universe reason for why I'm iffy that this is how it will go, while I think the actual mechanism you describe could work, though with complications.

As for this:

Do you mind spoilers for the back 5 of Stormlight Archive? Brandon has told us some things.

  Reveal hidden contents

The first 5 books are about the Radiants. The back 5 are about the Heralds, and Taln will have a book dedicated to him. This will be their story.

 

Thank you, I didn't know that. I stand corrected.

[Master Silver]

This is a tangent. I would say SPOILER, but given the topic that is a given.

 

What would happen if Vasher gave his breath (or a bunch of breath) to Dalinar? We know he has enough breath to awaken objects as seen from his fight with Kaladin. We also know that Dalinar has in times past talked about his age catching up with him. Yes, he said in plate those differences largely disappear. Is that true of stomrlight to? Or would a young man filled with stormlight still be faster and stronger than an older man in there mid/late fifties? If the humans don't pull out all the stops to win the contest it is hardly believable. Vivenna also (very likely) has Breath she could loan. The point of the breath wouldn't be awakening (not enough time to learn) but to enhance speed and strength a perfect body fights better than an old one. I am hoping for a cross over of magic systems. I still don't see Dalinar as the best warrior from a physical standpoint (anymore) for this fight. 

[alder24]

14 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

What would happen if Vasher gave his breath (or a bunch of breath) to Dalinar? We know he has enough breath to awaken objects as seen from his fight with Kaladin. We also know that Dalinar has in times past talked about his age catching up with him.

Not much if we're talking about regular Breaths. Depending on the number Vasher has, Dalinar would just get a few more decades of life (the 1st Heightening extends your life by a decade iirc), but it won't make him any younger or stronger. If Vasher were to give his Divine Breath, then it depends on Vasher's intent - it can do something more than healing. 

Spoiler

Questioner

When you transfer divine Breath, is it possible to have it result in something other than healing?

Brandon Sanderson

Lots of things are possible. Let's just say that that is not something people know how to do, and they have tried to do something else.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

17 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

Yes, he said in plate those differences largely disappear. Is that true of stomrlight to? Or would a young man filled with stormlight still be faster and stronger than an older man in there mid/late fifties?

No, a younger Dalinar with Stormlight would be stronger and faster than the current Dalinar with Stormlight. Stormlight generally enhances the body, but the effects of age are still there, less visible but there. 

19 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

The point of the breath wouldn't be awakening (not enough time to learn) but to enhance speed and strength a perfect body fights better than an old one.

Breaths don't do that. Holding Breaths doesn't make you stronger, faster or better physically in any way. The most they do is enhance your immune system and make you immune to illnesses or poisons, but they don't make you stronger. Vasher and Deth are stronger and faster because of their nature of Returned (Cognitive Shadows) and their Divine Breaths, but Divine Breaths can't be given, they can only be used to do something - like heal. 

Spoiler

Extesian

Can you give away a Divine Breath to another human? If so would they have the same powers as a Returned or would they just 'store' it like an inanimate object that Breath is stored in when not Awakened? Does a human require a 'crack' in their spirit web to receive a divine Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

So, a Divine Breath-- you're kind of going along the wrong direction on that line of reasoning. Divine Breaths cannot be transferred. When they are used they immediately become kinetic Investiture and are activated. This manifests normally as healing the person, both body, mind, and soul, but you can't give it up, transfer it in the same way you can regular Breaths.

Skype Q&A (Oct. 8, 2018)

 

22 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

I still don't see Dalinar as the best warrior from a physical standpoint (anymore) for this fight. 

He's the most experienced, fearsome and skilled fighter Roshar has to offer. And consider if the new Odium wants the Contest to take place at all, maybe he wants Dalinar to break the terms before the fight to get free?

[Colors]

12 hours ago, Master Silver said:

This is a tangent. I would say SPOILER, but given the topic that is a given.

 

What would happen if Vasher gave his breath (or a bunch of breath) to Dalinar? We know he has enough breath to awaken objects as seen from his fight with Kaladin. We also know that Dalinar has in times past talked about his age catching up with him. Yes, he said in plate those differences largely disappear. Is that true of stomrlight to? Or would a young man filled with stormlight still be faster and stronger than an older man in there mid/late fifties? If the humans don't pull out all the stops to win the contest it is hardly believable. Vivenna also (very likely) has Breath she could loan. The point of the breath wouldn't be awakening (not enough time to learn) but to enhance speed and strength a perfect body fights better than an old one. I am hoping for a cross over of magic systems. I still don't see Dalinar as the best warrior from a physical standpoint (anymore) for this fight. 

Yeah, I'd say Kaladin seems like the superior warrior from the standpoint of what his body can do at this point, but we'll see. 

As others have said, that isn't really how breath works. It doesn't increase physical ability, though it does do fun stuff like grant perfect color recognition and perfect pitch...so if the final showdown is an acapella performance that may help.

[Master Silver]

I thought with enough breaths they would act as a Divine breath, so you would reach the fifth heightening. But perhaps you still couldn't manipulate your body to make it stronger etc. Someone mentioned that they could do that because they were highly invested cognitive shadows. So all reaching the 5th Heightening would do is give you agelessness, but not reverse time and put you back at your peak. Although we did see from Kaladin's slave brands that perception has something to do with it. SO if you viewed age as a wound or sickness could investiture heal it, especially if the mental image of yourself was much younger? 

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

I thought with enough breaths they would act as a Divine breath, so you would reach the fifth heightening. But perhaps you still couldn't manipulate your body to make it stronger etc. Someone mentioned that they could do that because they were highly invested cognitive shadows. So all reaching the 5th Heightening would do is give you agelessness, but not reverse time and put you back at your peak. Although we did see from Kaladin's slave brands that perception has something to do with it. SO if you viewed age as a wound or sickness could investiture heal it, especially if the mental image of yourself was much younger? 

A Divine Breath is different from normal Breaths. A Divine Breath is a Splinter of Endowment, a staple that keeps Returned souls stuck in their body. It's a single, powerful piece of investiture. Breaths aren't like that. Breaths aren't Splinters, Breaths work a bit differently. Both a Divine Breath and 2500 Breaths give you the Fifth Heightening, but the physical enhancements like speed, strength or even appearance changing abilities are unique to Divine Breaths. 

Age is different from changing appearance. Age is written in your Spirit Web, you have this strong Connection to time and your soul pushes your body to match the right age. It's very hard to actually change your age in Cosmere. Breaths don't change your age. They slow down your aging at best, but you can't become younger then you are with Breaths. If you give you your 5th Heightening, your body will age rapidly to match your Spiritual age. Healing doesn't affect aging and age related illnesses. You can't heal your old age - you can't do with your age what Kaladin did with his slave brands.

However if you have a Divine Breath you can change how old you appear (but not your Spiritual age, it's just how you look). This would apply to Heralds and generally to Cognitive Shadows as well - they can decide how old they look. But you can't replicate that with normal Breaths. You can't make a Divine Breath with normal Breaths (as far as we know right now).

Warbreaker epilogue:

Spoiler

Quote

“Does that mean I can change more than just my hair?”
“Maybe,” he said. “Takes time to learn. Go stroll around the Hallandren Court of Gods sometime, though. You’ll find that the gods look exactly as they think they should. The old ones look old, the heroic ones become strong, the ones who think a beautiful goddess should be well endowed become unnaturally voluptuous. It’s all about how they perceive themselves.”

 

Warbreaker Spoilers WoBs:

Spoiler

Skyler

If a Returned gives away his/her Breath they die right? So why doesn't Vasher die after he gives his to Denth?

Brandon Sanderson

They will die the moment they run out of Breath to harvest. Once a week their body needs a Breath in order to survive. Each Returned has one single superpowered Breath. Imagine it as one breath that propels them up through the Heightenings, but it is only a single Breath. It's what we speak of in Shard world terminology as a Splinter. And when the seventh day comes, if a Returned does not have another breath for his body to consume to keep him alive, his body will actually eat his divine Breath and kill him. So they don't die immediately after they get rid of the Breath, they're sort of put into a state of limbo where if they don't find more Breath by the time that their feast day comes, then they will die. (Vasher did not give his Returned Breath to Denth, just a number of normal Breaths.)

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher Explains Some Things, but Leaves Some Things Hidden

I'm worried about leaving Vivenna's two questions unanswered. One is pretty obvious—how Vasher can hide how he looks—but the other is unintuitive. I wish I could explain better in the book, as I said above, but I decided in the end to just leave it hanging. It's a bit of a violation of Sanderson's First Law, but not a big one. The reason I feel I can get away with it is because Vasher didn't use his nature as a Returned to solve any problems. It is more a flavoring for his character than it is important to him getting out of danger or fixing things. He could have done everything he needed to in this book without being Returned. So I feel it's okay not to explain why he can be Returned and not die when he gives away his Breaths.

Can Vivenna change her appearance more? She can indeed. She could actually stoke that fragment of a divine Breath inside of her and start glowing like a Returned. She can't change her physical features to look like someone else, but she can change her age, her height (within reason), and her body shape (to an extent). It takes practice.

And yes, the scraggly miscreant is how Vasher sees himself. Not noble and Returned, which is part of how he suppresses his divine Breath.

Events in the second book may change that.

Warbreaker Annotations (Aug. 1, 2011)

Mistborn Spoiler WoB:

Spoiler

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine

If a person held enough breath to attain the 5th heightening, lived for a thousand years, and then sold all but their initial breath, would their spiritual age force them to rapidly age as we saw with Rashek, or would they resume natural aging from the point at which they ceased?

Brandon Sanderson (written)

I think they would rapidly age.

But I'm not ready to say 100%.

General Signed Books 2018 (April 17, 2018)

General Cosmere Spoilers WoB:

Spoiler

Iceblade44

So White Sand [then Elantris] is earlier... Then how the heck old is Khriss then? Will we ever get an answer as to why every worldhopper is flippin' immortal?

Brandon Sanderson

There is some time-dilation going on. I'll explain it eventually; we're almost to the point where I can start talking about that. Suffice it to say that there's a mix of both actual slowing of the aging process and relative time going on, depending on the individual. Very few are actually immortal.

Faera

Implying that some are actually immortal?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on which definition of immortal you mean.

Doesn't age, but can be killed by conventional means. (You've seen some of these in the cosmere, but I'll leave you to discuss who.)

Heals from wounds, but still ages. (Knights Radiant with Stormlight are like this.)

Reborn when killed. (The Heralds.)

Doesn't age and can heal, but dependent upon magic to stay this way, and so have distinct weakness to be exploited. (The Lord Ruler, among others.)

Hive beings who are constantly losing individual members, but maintaining a persistent personality spread across all of them, immortal in that as long as too much of the hive isn't wiped out, the personality can persist. (The Sleepless.)

Bits of sapient magic, eternal and endless, though the personality can be "destroyed" in specific ways. (Seons. Spren. Nightblood. Cognitive Shadows, like a certain character from Scadrial.)

Shards (Really just a supercharged version of the previous category.)

And then, of course, there's Hoid. I'm not going to say which category, if any, he's in.

Some of these blend together--the Heralds, for example, are technically a variety of Cognitive Shadow. I'm not saying each of these categories above are distinct, intended to be the end-all definitions. They're off the cuff groupings I made to explain a point: immortality is a theme of the cosmere works--which, at their core, are experiments on what happens when men are given the power of deity.

Shagomir

Heals from wounds, but still ages.

Would Bloodmaker Ferrings exist in this category as well? If not, what about someone Compounding Gold?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you are correct.

Shagomir

As a Bloodmaker ages, what keeps them from healing the damage and carrying on as a very old, but very healthy person? Do they come to a point where they can't store enough health to stave off the aches, pains, diseases, and other things that come with old age?

This makes sense for traditional Feruchemy as it is end-neutral, so storing health becomes a zero sum game - eventually, you're going to get sick and you're not going to be able to overcome it with your natural healing ability no matter how much you manipulate it with a goldmind.

...Unless you've got a supply of Identity-less goldminds lying around. Would a Bloodmaker with a sufficient source of Identity-less goldminds (or the ability to compound, thus bypassing the end-neutral part of Feruchemy) eventually just die from being too old?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, yes. They can heal their body to match their spiritual ideal, but some things (like some genetic diseases, and age-related illnesses) are seen as part of the ideal. Depends on several factors.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 29, 2016)

Mistborn Spoilers WoB:

Spoiler

Doom-Slayer

So how do the exact mechanics of Feruchemy in relation to Compounding work?

This confusion is primarily around how [the Lord Ruler] gets his near infinite age.

Okay. So first off, I understand the concept of how they work. Feruchemy is net zero, Allomancy is net positive, combine them and you end with a net positive Feruchemy ability.

So how Feruchemy normally works... you take say weight, store half your normal weight and then you can access it whenever you want. So you (originally X weight) are taking A weight, storing it, and then you are at (X-A) weight, with access to A. So we have a metalmind that store magnitude with the efficiency of how its received based on how quickly or slowly it is drawn upon.

All the metalminds except atium seem to act this way. Atium seems to work as storing magnitude/time rather than just magnitude. The way I understand it is that say a 30 year old person becomes 50 years old for 1 day, this would give access to 20 years difference for a 1 day period.

The Lord Ruler then exploits this by gaining access to say 20 years difference over 10 days (magnification by Compounding) which he then slowly feeds into himself to lower his age.

Why this difference? I'm assuming its to maintain a neutral "body age" because with just magnitude a person could permanently make themselves younger by Compounding.

With just magnitude of "20 years of youth" being stored, if the Lord Ruler magnified it, he could turn it into "200 years of youth" and then he would never need the constant stream off youth (and wouldn't have died without the bracelets)

Hope this makes sense.

Brandon Sanderson

All right, so there are a few things you have to understand about cosmere magics to grok all of this.

First, is that magics can be hacked together. You'll see more of this in the future of the cosmere, but an early one is the hack here--where you're essentially powering Feruchemy with Allomancy. (A little more complex than that, but it seems like you get the idea.)

The piece you're missing is the nature of a person's Spiritual aspect. This is similar to a Platonic idea--the idea that there's a perfect version of everyone somewhere. It's a mix of their connections to places, people, and times with raw Investiture. The soul, you might say.

(Note that over time, a person's perception of themselves shapes their Cognitive aspect as well, and the Cognitive aspect can interfere with the Spiritual aspect trying to make the Physical aspect repair itself.) Healing in the cosmere often works by aligning your Physical self with your Spiritual self--making the Physical regrow. More powerful forms of Investiture can repair the soul as well.

However, your age is part of your Connection to places, people, and times. Your soul "knows" things, like where you were born, what Investiture you are aligned with, and--yes--how old you are. When you're healing yourself, you're restoring yourself to a perfect state--when you're done, everything is good. When you're changing your age, however, you are transforming yourself to something unnatural. Against what your soul understands to be true.

So the Spiritual aspect will push for a restoration to the way you should be. With this Compounding hack, you're not changing connection; it's a purely Physical Realm change.

This dichotomy cannot remain for long. And the greater the disparity, the more pressure the spirit will exert. Ten or twenty years won't matter much. A thousand will matter a lot. So the only way to use Compounding to change your age is to store up all this extra youth in a metalmind, then be constantly tapping it to counteract the soul's attempt to restore you to how you should be.

Yes, all of this means there are FAR more efficient means of counteracting aging than the one used by the Lord Ruler. It's a hack, and not meant to be terribly efficient. Eventually, he wouldn't have been able to maintain himself this way at all. Changing Connection (or even involving ones Cognitive Aspect a little more) would have been far more efficient, though actively more difficult.

Though this is the point where I ping [Peter Ahlstrom] and get him to double-check all this. Once in a while, my fingers still type the wrong term in places. (See silvereye vs tineye.)

General Reddit 2015 (Nov. 20, 2015)

 

[Treach]

On 2/16/2024 at 9:23 AM, alder24 said:

Hello, welcome to the Shard. I would encourage you to use more punctuation because it's hard to read such long posts with little to none of it. 

 

That wouldn't necessarily require a lot of investiture. What Vasher did, or rather that that girl did, was to store her memories in her Breath - innate investiture which is part of her soul. Heralds could potentially do the same, store their memories in their innate investiture (if possible, I find it unlikely), or in Breaths. Hoid does that already, he has only 200 Breaths which allow him to store memories of his entire life. But it has to be innate investiture, Breaths not Dor. 

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Questioner

Memory is tied to some level or portion of Spiritual Identity, or else Feruchemists would not be able to store it. So, Hoid lost memories at the end of Rhythm of War in his exchange with Odium. Would that mean part of his soul was stolen and then absorbed into Odium, and if so, what is stopping Odium from doing that with all of his enemies?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, what Odium split off is stuff that Hoid is storing in excess Investiture. (Basically, it was Breaths, in Hoid’s case.) And this sort of thing, where this extra memory… One of the reasons that Hoid is able to function better than, perhaps, some other very long-lived individuals is: he has found out how to keep some of this Identity in, shall we say, SD cards made of Investiture. Imagine that sort of thing. So what Odium was stealing from Hoid was straight out of an SD card. Which means that it’s not nearly as deeply ripping into someone’s soul, and it is also not nearly as noticeable.

But the other thing is: Hoid is directly in violation of certain agreements that have been made, which therefore exposes him to… He is lacking protections. As you’ll notice in the end of Book Three, where he’s like, “I need to be careful, because I am in violation.”

And so, there’s a couple things going on here. Number one, much more easy to access those memories. Number two, Hoid’s in direct violation and under no protections of any sorts of agreements and things like this.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Unfortunately that's not enough. Taking their memories away might help but the problem lies within their souls. A human soul isn't made to last for thousands of years. And while you can take their memories away, you can’t take away that damage their soul suffered through thousands of years of torture. It will keep affecting them. Taking their memories will help, but won’t heal them. Heralds already know they can do such thing, Hoid told them, RoW ch 83-89 epigraphs:

 

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Questioner

Why or how are the Heralds the only ones we've seen so far that are affected by magical maladies due to either their high Investiture or long lives?

Brandon Sanderson

I would argue the Fused are having the same situation, so they're not the only ones. The why and how... there's a whole host of things going on here. Like a lot of physical and mental illness, it's not one thing or the other. But it is a compound of other things.

One is going so long without certain protections that you kind of need to take. The human being's soul might be immortal, depending on your argument in the cosmere. (That's really up to you.) But they certainly aren't meant for thousands of years of existence, the same way that our bodies aren't. There's some of that.

There's some of the things they've been through. Like, legit trauma; this is not all simply a magical ailment. You've got people with PTSD, layers of PTSD on top of layers of PTSD, for thousands of years, bearing things that no human being without their level of Investiture would even be able to bear. You've got that manifestation, you've got their own sense of guilt.

And these things are all just kind of overlapping together with the fact they've been alive for so, so very long. And a lot of the people that you've seen otherwise have not been alive nearly... orders of magnitude more for the Heralds. The only people you've seen that are that old are: some of the dragons, Hoid, and Vessels of various Shards. And you're basically at that group. And this is a group who knows what they're doing. Either they were built like the dragons, this is part of their innate nature, that they are functionally immortal. Or you are getting the Shards. Or you're getting people that are 300 years old, which is a very different thing, cosmere-wise, than having lived for thousands and thousands of years, part of it being torture.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

But Taln is actually happy with what Heralds did, he perceives this as a fantastic gift to humanity, time to recover. OB ch 119:

 

He's on vacation. He brought Nightblood to Roshar and now he's resting, feeding on Stormlight instead of souls. He ran away. 

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Questioner

So we already know that Vasher was Kaladin's trainer with a Shardblade, 'cause you told me that last time I asked you. So does Vasher just have a large mass of Biochromatic Breaths and that's how he's surviving, or is he somehow feeding off Stormlight while he is there?

Brandon Sanderson

He is feeding off of Stormlight, which is the primary reason why he came to Roshar. Investiture is easy to access in plentiful amounts.

Questioner

How did he know how to use Shardblades so well when he got there, is that related to how they created Nightblood

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he has experience with Roshar from hundreds of years ago.

White Sand vol.1 Orem signing (June 29, 2016)

 

Vivenna is there searching for Nightblood and Vasher. OB ch 108&110:

 

Overall, helping Heralds to sort out their memories is a good first step, but that alone is not good enough, it won't heal their damaged soul. 

On the Heralds and healing their madness. 

TSM Spoilers.

Spoiler

In TSM we see that the Torment can be partially removed/weakened, and the same can be done for the Charred. The way it happens there is a bit of their soul, the bad bit ideally, being siphoned off. 

Wouldn't it stand to reason that if anything could accomplish something similar, it would be something that can and will literally drain your soul? They could do so by wielding it and letting it feed, but maybe an experienced enough wielder could specifically identify to NB which bits are "evil"? Just a thought, I don't see siphoning off a bit of their soul as something NB isn't capable of.

Edited March 4 by Treach

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Treach said:

On the Heralds and healing their madness. 

TSM Spoilers.

  Hide contents

In TSM we see that the Torment can be partially removed/weakened, and the same can be done for the Charred. The way it happens there is a bit of their soul, the bad bit ideally, being siphoned off. 

Wouldn't it stand to reason that if anything could accomplish something similar, it would be something that can and will literally drain your soul? They could do so by wielding it and letting it feed, but maybe an experienced enough wielder could specifically identify to NB which bits are "evil"? Just a thought, I don't see siphoning off a bit of their soul as something NB isn't capable of.

I doubt it's the same thing. TSM spoilers:

Spoiler

The Torment is something additional, like a residue left on your soul, the same is with the Charred. But the Heralds' madness is their soul being damaged and cracked, their mind diminishing and there is also people's perception of Heralds that shapes them a bit. Their soul and mind is too damaged - you need to brace it, fill cracks in their soul and heal the mind. There is nothing to be removed.

In general, madness cracks the soul, it doesn't add anything to it, it's just your soul being damaged and cracked. 

Nightblood doesn't feed on what's evil, he just feeds on any investiture he gets.