Trusk'our Posted February 2 Report Share Posted February 2 The thread I made on balancing Allomantic iron and steel for a D&D Mistborn homebrew went really, really well- thank you so much @Tamriel Wolfsbaine, @Lunamor, @KelsierFortnite, @Returned, and @Duxredux! I really appreciate the ideas and commentary and would love more if you're willing! I've now got a system for these two metals that I think is quite good, and I can't wait to post it once I've gotten the rest of my second draft polished up and finished! However, there are two more powers that are really bothering me. I just can't figure out how to handle Allomantic gold and Feruchemical zinc. Gold is just plain weird; you see a hallucination that is either a vision of how you could have turned out had you made different choices or a past version of yourself. I. . . honestly am kind of stumped on how to use it effectively. Very minor tES spoilers. Spoiler I suppose one thing you could do is fudge the power a little bit and say it works kind of like how we postulated in an old thread, where it might be used in a similar way to Soulstamps, but that feels a bit too powerful; why bother specializing in a skill set if you can just take Allomantic gold and effectively get all of them? And F-zinc. . . that's a tough one too. Feruchemical steel has the movement speed bonus, the AC bonus, and the extra actions to be made, and I don't want zinc just to be an inferior version of it. I also don't really see zinc adding a direct attack or damage bonus (especially since F-pewter kind of does that already too), and tin is mostly used for extra perception and awareness, so that's off the table as well. Would anyone who's willing please offer suggestions for how I may form these powers for a 3.5 D&D game? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duxredux Posted February 2 Report Share Posted February 2 Hm... it could be broken for power gamers, but you could have A-Gold give a potent effect because unlike every other power, this one is literally fueled by gold and gold has a really fast Allomantic burn rate. This one requires the DM to add economic pressure to the campaign to make it relevant that they have to do a cost/benefit analysis between getting nicer equipment and supplies that persist versus a temporary skill that they have to pay to use. It would probably take some trial and error to figure out the cost to use it for a single round. You could also build in character disorientation after they stop burning it. Deciding on if the powers and skills given are consistent or have a random quality could also make it interesting or more complicated (maybe they have to redo the skill after major plot points or leveling up or something, something where you indicate that narratively they have changed as a person or could have made a significantly different choice). If conceptually that makes sense and sounds cool I'll let someone else translate it to 3.5e parlance. F-Zinc... maybe it lets the player spot weak points? Lowers the target's effective AC or lets you ignore partial cover? Maybe increases the range of what is considered a critical hit (depends on if the setting has Spinner ferrings)? Boosts wisdom temporarily? Maybe a specific advantage against visible projectiles? My problem here is I'm not sure what skills I'm suggesting overlap with other existing skills, and that the effect is likely on a continuum. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted February 2 Report Share Posted February 2 6 hours ago, Trusk'our said: The thread I made on balancing Allomantic iron and steel for a D&D Mistborn homebrew went really, really well- thank you so much @Tamriel Wolfsbaine, @Lunamor, @KelsierFortnite, @Returned, and @Duxredux! I really appreciate the ideas and commentary and would love more if you're willing! I've now got a system for these two metals that I think is quite good, and I can't wait to post it once I've gotten the rest of my second draft polished up and finished! However, there are two more powers that are really bothering me. I just can't figure out how to handle Allomantic gold and Feruchemical zinc. Gold is just plain weird; you see a hallucination that is either a vision of how you could have turned out had you made different choices or a past version of yourself. I. . . honestly am kind of stumped on how to use it effectively. Very minor tES spoilers. Hide contents I suppose one thing you could do is fudge the power a little bit and say it works kind of like how we postulated in an old thread, where it might be used in a similar way to Soulstamps, but that feels a bit too powerful; why bother specializing in a skill set if you can just take Allomantic gold and effectively get all of them? And F-zinc. . . that's a tough one too. Feruchemical steel has the movement speed bonus, the AC bonus, and the extra actions to be made, and I don't want zinc just to be an inferior version of it. I also don't really see zinc adding a direct attack or damage bonus (especially since F-pewter kind of does that already too), and tin is mostly used for extra perception and awareness, so that's off the table as well. Would anyone who's willing please offer suggestions for how I may form these powers for a 3.5 D&D game? Okay. So I would start by saying that choosing A gold is a flavor choice. Like multiclassing a whole bunch for a long game where characters may actually hit later levels is usually not optimal. Some choices for making your metalborn are just not optimal for a murder hobo setup. Rolling for powers would be far truer to the books and then you just learn to cope with the underpowered powers. I mean duralumin gnats exist and even being born powered they probably get beat up in high-school for it more than the kids who have no powers at all. Its just sad when you roll a nat 20 at start of life to become an allomancer but roll a nat 1 in what power you actually get. That little rant aside.... I think Feruchemical zinc should get far more opportunity attacks than the rules currently build in. Feruchemical zinc should always have the top spot in initiative. Feruchemical zinc should get bonuses to wis and cha when tapped. I want to say int as well but you don't suddenly have more knowledge on things you can simply process and make decisions faster. An AC bonus, though it may be a copycat to other metals, would be appropriate. Same with some uncanny dodge like perks. Zinc doesn't make you faster or stronger but you can see whats coming earlier on in the stage. It may not be balanced to give all of this to zinc but it would be a resource heavy ability that is beneficial in combat and in RP situations... which is true to its power I think. Back to gold and this is directly from Brandon in the MAG: "Being a Gold Misting is... well, in most people’s eyes, it’s about as useful as an Aluminum Gnat. It does have its uses — or so Miles thinks in The Alloy of Law, but the practical application has more to do with roleplaying and characterization than hard and fast game rules." Something gold... and any metal that lets you see spiritual realm stuff should give is this... blindsight. Everything has a spiritual shadow. While burning gold if you can ignore your own image you should be able to navigate a completely dark room with ease as you would see the spiritual shadows of everything. This comes from someone asking about a blind character in a reddit AMA. Brandon confirmed that it would let the blind person see but was a very expensive way of doing it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted February 2 Report Share Posted February 2 (5e Dnd?) F-Zinc is not just inferior Speed (though there is some Bullet Time overlap per WOB), or even just Speed of Thought, it's an overall increase in Intelligence and both processing speed and power, including Intuitive Leaps (which is huge). So I'd say it should grant advantage on all Int-based checks, something akin to Bardic Knowledge, and all the effects of the Keen Mind feat (other than the Memory thing which would be covered by Copper). I wouldnt necessarily give them a Bonus to Initiative (that's more the physical speed and F-tin for the wisdom/Perception side) but I'd give them the "Cannot be Surprised" part of the Alert feat (they arent surprised but may not be capable of physically acting first). I also wouldnt give it an innate Attack or damage bonus, though if they can add Int to either from some other class ability I'd let the Advantage apply. For A-Gold, it's explicitly not a great metal so it's going to have some side effects. Up side is they can perceive through their Shadow's eyes and mind, so there would be a second token on the field with it's own line of sight. That 2nd person is a little like a ghost since only you can see or touch them, and also gives you some character changes along the lines of a DM designed Forgery to represent your current Possible Alternate Self. Combined with F-Zinc and you could really leverage that alternate Mind and Skillset for complex mental tasks. There should be some Cumulative Saves to represent the ongoing emotional stress of the Burn (Widsom or Charisma, Id say) and a much more difficult one if you actually touch the Shadow. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Returned Posted February 2 Report Share Posted February 2 (edited) These do seem like troublesome metals. My first thought is that neither should, generally, be that combat-oriented given the structure of tabletop gaming. F-zinc was really useful to Sazed in his fight with Marsh because he was the character, not a person playing a character. Players already inherently have some of that benefit since 3.5e combat rules are rigidly defined, actions are constrained to a set list, and other players' and npcs' turns allow a player to use that time to plan out the next six seconds of what they do. A-gold is introspective more than anything else, and even if you think of some combat uses for it I have a hard time thinking that it would ever not be strongly dominated by at least one other choice in basically every situation. So these strike me a non-combat metlas in practice. A-gold A-gold is the easier case, I think, since even in the novels its not necessarily that valuable. It's also going to be self-limiting in D&D because you'd have to spend your wealth directly to use it and so the opportunity costs would be much more stark. So it doesn't need as much direct, obvious application, nor does it need a lot of mechanical value. Someone who isn't Mistborn but chooses to have access to A-gold (without F-gold) is making a low-value choice and it may not be necessary to adjust that much. That said, I think that it would have some natural value in certain Wisdom-based checks for information a player could derive from seeing what they might have been with different choices, particularly when the outcomes of certain skill checks are unknown to the players. If you don't know whether or not you successfully Bluffed an NPC, perhaps later on you could burn gold and glean from your goldshadow information that you could interpret to answer that question. If you're unsure if you aligned yourself with the right faction, A-gold might reveal that you would have been wealthier/stronger/happier/maintained your alignment better/whatever if you'd made a different choice (or confirm that the alternate choice would have left you a wretch harried by unseen foes). It would take some extra work for the DM to set up situations in which players could make those choices and later get useful information from confirmation, and the narration of what information the gold revealed (and how) would be important as well. But as a player I wouldn't be unhappy with the chance to get more information on the state of the plot, centered around the choices that I had made. In any event, I'd expect to need a high Wisdom modifier to be able to interpret what gold showed me with any reliability. F-zinc As above, this gets murky with the F-zinc-like advantages that players get from meta knowledge of the game system and the non-real time nature of typical play. These advantages are most pronounced in combat and so that might not be the best place to focus your efforts on operationalizing F-zinc. I like the idea, above, of pumping Intelligence-based checks with an extra bonus (where appropriate, not all such checks would reasonably get much from zinc). It's an abstraction, of course, but Intelligence checks are already one of the more abstracted mechanics anyhow as they are tend to override the players' superior or inferior knowledge of game rules or in-game information which has no real-world analogues. It's always going to be hard to play a character that is more intelligent than the player (not even including that such a character will also have all of in-world knowledge of which the player can only know a subset). Other enhancements in this area might involve reducing the amount of time PCs need to accomplish something which requires thought or analysis, which would be an amazing benefit in situations where there is time pressure of any sort (the High Council is meeting in one hour, and you need to translate the Infernal contract before then to have any hope of describing to them the danger they are in. Enough stored in a zincmind may make this possible, or even trivial). For Intelligene-based casters, maybe they can use a higher level spell scroll without the attendant risk of failure if they're willing to tap the zincmind in the process. Zinc could provide a flat bonus over the duration of some scheme that the PCs planned in advance or issue they might have thought through to reflect the extra, in-game intelligence the PC brought to the task. Maybe a PC can discern something like a resistance or weakness to a damage type for a creature they haven't encountered before, based only on brief observation. PCs might be able to think up a way (not necessarily specified in much detail) to slip through gaps in guard patrols, come up with an angle to work a scam, or engineer some mechanism for an extra-efficient trap. Using up stored speed of thought could also be a good way to make extra money during downtime, though that's not the most inspired way to use it. I've toyed with a theoretical mechanic (never tested in play) that is essentially "I thought of that!": a pool of points (or something similar) which players can consume while executing a plan to gain some advantage over an unexpected event, without needing to actually have specified that preparation. Something like: DM, after a bad Move Silently check: "You try your best to be quiet, but the nearness of guard patrols and the heightened alert status of the castle means that the books you knocked onto the floor make a loud clatter. Guards immediately burst through the door, too quickly for you to figure out a response to the blunder." Player, who has two IToT! points from using some of their stored F-zinc: "I thought of that! Having examined the layout of the library before our intrusion I already know all of the places we could hide there." The party then gets to roll a Hide check (with an additional +2 bonus, if they use their entire IToT! pool here) when they otherwise would not have been able to make a roll at all. It's flexible and simulates the supernaturally excellent intelligence, foresight, and meticulous planning that F-zinc allows. The other element of F-zinc (and all Feruchemy, really) that I would find interesting as a player is the balance between bonuses and penalties from storing and tapping traits. Assuming that players don't get to abuse downtime to store too much of a trait (or traits) with no downsides, the wildness of potential advantages from a more abstracted, flexible F-zinc system would be balanced harshly by having to play out extended periods with a reduced Intelligence score. The advantages gained from F-zinc can safely be pretty extreme if you have to front-load substantial difficulties to obtain them. Edited February 2 by Returned 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted February 3 Report Share Posted February 3 7 hours ago, Returned said: The other element of F-zinc (and all Feruchemy, really) that I would find interesting as a player is the balance between bonuses and penalties from storing and tapping traits. Assuming that players don't get to abuse downtime to store too much of a trait (or traits) with no downsides, the wildness of potential advantages from a more abstracted, flexible F-zinc system would be balanced harshly by having to play out extended periods with a reduced Intelligence score. The advantages gained from F-zinc can safely be pretty extreme if you have to front-load substantial difficulties to obtain them. I think this is a good breakdown and point. The hardest part of balancing feruchemy is that it is impossible to balance in the setting with rests. Short rests and long rests from a game play viewpoint are where charges should be stored. Sadly that takes away the whole net negative and what the players see is an out of control powerful net positive system. But making them store during play time is also antifun for the feruchemist because from a narrative point of view there is no reason you would actively store to give yourself a negative roll ever. You would immediately stop storing if you needed that trait and were in danger. Forcing a ferring to store and take penalties during game time is not true to the class as we have seen it on paper. Every feruchemist we read about leverages it to be positive when needed and negative from the safety of their home. Wayne is an exception to this rule to an extent but never did Brandon write Wayne to be fighting while storing just to have some later... you store when you don't need it and it won't hinder you and you stop when you need to use your brain and you tap when you really need to use your brain. Unfortunately this leads to any ferring build to feel really really powerful. Limiting the amount of charges a ferring can use based on level is the route that the MAG went but that also limited how much they could store on rests. Someone who is used to their power and feeling sick can endure much more storage on a rest like Wayne. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our Posted February 5 Author Report Share Posted February 5 On 2/2/2024 at 7:11 AM, Duxredux said: Hm... it could be broken for power gamers, but you could have A-Gold give a potent effect because unlike every other power, this one is literally fueled by gold and gold has a really fast Allomantic burn rate. This one requires the DM to add economic pressure to the campaign to make it relevant that they have to do a cost/benefit analysis between getting nicer equipment and supplies that persist versus a temporary skill that they have to pay to use. It would probably take some trial and error to figure out the cost to use it for a single round. You could also build in character disorientation after they stop burning it. Hmmm, true. I had been expecting to add a monetary system to the Mistborn adaptation as you'd need to get more metals for Allomancy and if you wanted more Metalminds (which, depending on how much time you give your players between adventures could prove a useful investment). This would definitely give a good way to spend their hard-earned cash. A disorienting penalty would also probably be good to use for the power, especially since that's how its described as functioning in the books. On 2/2/2024 at 7:18 AM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Okay. So I would start by saying that choosing A gold is a flavor choice. Like multiclassing a whole bunch for a long game where characters may actually hit later levels is usually not optimal. Some choices for making your metalborn are just not optimal for a murder hobo setup. Rolling for powers would be far truer to the books and then you just learn to cope with the underpowered powers. I mean duralumin gnats exist and even being born powered they probably get beat up in high-school for it more than the kids who have no powers at all. Its just sad when you roll a nat 20 at start of life to become an allomancer but roll a nat 1 in what power you actually get. Yeah, I have been focusing a little too much on a murder hobo system (my players pretty much always turn out that way ), so perhaps I should focus a little more on there being some powers that just aren't as useful for fighting but have roll play value. I still think that there's room for Allomantic gold to do some cool things, but perhaps it would require extra training to actually be useful (basically, you take feats to make them work). On 2/2/2024 at 10:25 AM, Quantus said: For A-Gold, it's explicitly not a great metal so it's going to have some side effects. Up side is they can perceive through their Shadow's eyes and mind, so there would be a second token on the field with it's own line of sight. That 2nd person is a little like a ghost since only you can see or touch them, and also gives you some character changes along the lines of a DM designed Forgery to represent your current Possible Alternate Self. Combined with F-Zinc and you could really leverage that alternate Mind and Skillset for complex mental tasks. There should be some Cumulative Saves to represent the ongoing emotional stress of the Burn (Widsom or Charisma, Id say) and a much more difficult one if you actually touch the Shadow. That could be an interesting idea; using your shadow's vision to perceive areas you shouldn't be able to could be a fun and creative hack. I think that this should be made an optional feat at the very least. On 2/2/2024 at 1:16 PM, Returned said: These do seem like troublesome metals. My first thought is that neither should, generally, be that combat-oriented given the structure of tabletop gaming. F-zinc was really useful to Sazed in his fight with Marsh because he was the character, not a person playing a character. Players already inherently have some of that benefit since 3.5e combat rules are rigidly defined, actions are constrained to a set list, and other players' and npcs' turns allow a player to use that time to plan out the next six seconds of what they do. A-gold is introspective more than anything else, and even if you think of some combat uses for it I have a hard time thinking that it would ever not be strongly dominated by at least one other choice in basically every situation. So these strike me a non-combat metlas in practice. A-gold A-gold is the easier case, I think, since even in the novels its not necessarily that valuable. It's also going to be self-limiting in D&D because you'd have to spend your wealth directly to use it and so the opportunity costs would be much more stark. So it doesn't need as much direct, obvious application, nor does it need a lot of mechanical value. Someone who isn't Mistborn but chooses to have access to A-gold (without F-gold) is making a low-value choice and it may not be necessary to adjust that much. That said, I think that it would have some natural value in certain Wisdom-based checks for information a player could derive from seeing what they might have been with different choices, particularly when the outcomes of certain skill checks are unknown to the players. If you don't know whether or not you successfully Bluffed an NPC, perhaps later on you could burn gold and glean from your goldshadow information that you could interpret to answer that question. If you're unsure if you aligned yourself with the right faction, A-gold might reveal that you would have been wealthier/stronger/happier/maintained your alignment better/whatever if you'd made a different choice (or confirm that the alternate choice would have left you a wretch harried by unseen foes). It would take some extra work for the DM to set up situations in which players could make those choices and later get useful information from confirmation, and the narration of what information the gold revealed (and how) would be important as well. But as a player I wouldn't be unhappy with the chance to get more information on the state of the plot, centered around the choices that I had made. In any event, I'd expect to need a high Wisdom modifier to be able to interpret what gold showed me with any reliability. Using a gold shadow to gain information based around previous possible actions? I could see a creative player using that effectively. I like that idea. I do think that it should be more of a "soft" rule than a hard one though, where what the Auger sees is dependent on the DM's approval and the situation. Wisdom especially fits that narrative as well, I would think. On 2/2/2024 at 7:11 AM, Duxredux said: F-Zinc... maybe it lets the player spot weak points? Lowers the target's effective AC or lets you ignore partial cover? Maybe increases the range of what is considered a critical hit (depends on if the setting has Spinner ferrings)? Boosts wisdom temporarily? Maybe a specific advantage against visible projectiles? My problem here is I'm not sure what skills I'm suggesting overlap with other existing skills, and that the effect is likely on a continuum. Yeahhhh, I can see how not knowing what the others do would be a problem here. Sorry about that. Honestly, the biggest problem I ran into with this particular power is that there isn't a ton that it does that another metal shouldn't, mechanically speaking; F-chromium the big roll modifier, F-steel is the one that grants lot of extra AC and actions, and A-electrum is supposed to actually give you precognition, not just a watered-down version based on human prediction. On 2/2/2024 at 7:18 AM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I think Feruchemical zinc should get far more opportunity attacks than the rules currently build in. Feruchemical zinc should always have the top spot in initiative. Feruchemical zinc should get bonuses to wis and cha when tapped. I want to say int as well but you don't suddenly have more knowledge on things you can simply process and make decisions faster. An AC bonus, though it may be a copycat to other metals, would be appropriate. Same with some uncanny dodge like perks. Zinc doesn't make you faster or stronger but you can see whats coming earlier on in the stage. It may not be balanced to give all of this to zinc but it would be a resource heavy ability that is beneficial in combat and in RP situations... which is true to its power I think. On 2/2/2024 at 10:25 AM, Quantus said: F-Zinc is not just inferior Speed (though there is some Bullet Time overlap per WOB), or even just Speed of Thought, it's an overall increase in Intelligence and both processing speed and power, including Intuitive Leaps (which is huge). So I'd say it should grant advantage on all Int-based checks, something akin to Bardic Knowledge, and all the effects of the Keen Mind feat (other than the Memory thing which would be covered by Copper). I wouldnt necessarily give them a Bonus to Initiative (that's more the physical speed and F-tin for the wisdom/Perception side) but I'd give them the "Cannot be Surprised" part of the Alert feat (they arent surprised but may not be capable of physically acting first). I also wouldnt give it an innate Attack or damage bonus, though if they can add Int to either from some other class ability I'd let the Advantage apply. On 2/2/2024 at 1:16 PM, Returned said: F-zinc As above, this gets murky with the F-zinc-like advantages that players get from meta knowledge of the game system and the non-real time nature of typical play. These advantages are most pronounced in combat and so that might not be the best place to focus your efforts on operationalizing F-zinc. I like the idea, above, of pumping Intelligence-based checks with an extra bonus (where appropriate, not all such checks would reasonably get much from zinc). It's an abstraction, of course, but Intelligence checks are already one of the more abstracted mechanics anyhow as they are tend to override the players' superior or inferior knowledge of game rules or in-game information which has no real-world analogues. It's always going to be hard to play a character that is more intelligent than the player (not even including that such a character will also have all of in-world knowledge of which the player can only know a subset). Other enhancements in this area might involve reducing the amount of time PCs need to accomplish something which requires thought or analysis, which would be an amazing benefit in situations where there is time pressure of any sort (the High Council is meeting in one hour, and you need to translate the Infernal contract before then to have any hope of describing to them the danger they are in. Enough stored in a zincmind may make this possible, or even trivial). For Intelligene-based casters, maybe they can use a higher level spell scroll without the attendant risk of failure if they're willing to tap the zincmind in the process. Zinc could provide a flat bonus over the duration of some scheme that the PCs planned in advance or issue they might have thought through to reflect the extra, in-game intelligence the PC brought to the task. Maybe a PC can discern something like a resistance or weakness to a damage type for a creature they haven't encountered before, based only on brief observation. PCs might be able to think up a way (not necessarily specified in much detail) to slip through gaps in guard patrols, come up with an angle to work a scam, or engineer some mechanism for an extra-efficient trap. Using up stored speed of thought could also be a good way to make extra money during downtime, though that's not the most inspired way to use it. I've toyed with a theoretical mechanic (never tested in play) that is essentially "I thought of that!": a pool of points (or something similar) which players can consume while executing a plan to gain some advantage over an unexpected event, without needing to actually have specified that preparation. Something like: DM, after a bad Move Silently check: "You try your best to be quiet, but the nearness of guard patrols and the heightened alert status of the castle means that the books you knocked onto the floor make a loud clatter. Guards immediately burst through the door, too quickly for you to figure out a response to the blunder." Player, who has two IToT! points from using some of their stored F-zinc: "I thought of that! Having examined the layout of the library before our intrusion I already know all of the places we could hide there." The party then gets to roll a Hide check (with an additional +2 bonus, if they use their entire IToT! pool here) when they otherwise would not have been able to make a roll at all. It's flexible and simulates the supernaturally excellent intelligence, foresight, and meticulous planning that F-zinc allows. The other element of F-zinc (and all Feruchemy, really) that I would find interesting as a player is the balance between bonuses and penalties from storing and tapping traits. Assuming that players don't get to abuse downtime to store too much of a trait (or traits) with no downsides, the wildness of potential advantages from a more abstracted, flexible F-zinc system would be balanced harshly by having to play out extended periods with a reduced Intelligence score. The advantages gained from F-zinc can safely be pretty extreme if you have to front-load substantial difficulties to obtain them. Alright, that's quite a few ideas I will say, after reading these, I think that I'm going to make F-zinc less of a direct battle metal than pewter or steel, but it would definitely still have some uses (particularly if feats come into play). I think don't know if I want a direct intelligence score boost like with F-pewter since F-copper already covers most of that function (not a direct boost to the score, though it makes those checks easier), though @Quantus's idea of Tapping zinc to allow the addition of your intelligence modifier to other types of rolls seems like it could have some nice potential, especially since that could still make it useful for combat and for a lot of other tasks without making it unreasonably over powered. On 2/2/2024 at 10:25 AM, Quantus said: (5e Dnd?) I was planning on this for 3.5 actually, since there's generally more room to mess around with augmentation and such (a Feruchemist who- technically- has no upper bound on what they can Tap doesn't really fit into 5e as well, in my opinion). Plus, I just generally like that edition more. On 2/2/2024 at 9:11 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I think this is a good breakdown and point. The hardest part of balancing feruchemy is that it is impossible to balance in the setting with rests. Short rests and long rests from a game play viewpoint are where charges should be stored. Sadly that takes away the whole net negative and what the players see is an out of control powerful net positive system. But making them store during play time is also antifun for the feruchemist because from a narrative point of view there is no reason you would actively store to give yourself a negative roll ever. You would immediately stop storing if you needed that trait and were in danger. Forcing a ferring to store and take penalties during game time is not true to the class as we have seen it on paper. Every feruchemist we read about leverages it to be positive when needed and negative from the safety of their home. Wayne is an exception to this rule to an extent but never did Brandon write Wayne to be fighting while storing just to have some later... you store when you don't need it and it won't hinder you and you stop when you need to use your brain and you tap when you really need to use your brain. Unfortunately this leads to any ferring build to feel really really powerful. Limiting the amount of charges a ferring can use based on level is the route that the MAG went but that also limited how much they could store on rests. Someone who is used to their power and feeling sick can endure much more storage on a rest like Wayne. I was thinking about this, as Feruchemy does have a dangerous potential if played close to how it works canonically; a Feruchemist should, technically speaking, be able to sit around for a week Storing up attributes and become a powerhouse whenever they actually start an adventure. I have a couple things to try and balance this out, though obviously some playtesting may be necessary to make final changes. 1. Feruchemical powers become a lot more expensive the more you Tap; you can, technically, Tap to get a +10 to your strength score as a Brute by Storing up strength over long rests, but that would be a lot more costly than taking a +4 or +5 for several times the length. Basically, you need to be careful with how much you spend on a single encounter, as you may end up leaving yourself without any for later. 2. I'm lowering the amount of charges you can actually Store per long rest; the base mechanic I had for Feruchemy was that you could Store a certain number of charges based on certain factors, such as you ability scores. Originally, I was going to make the number of charges you could Store for something like pewter or steel equal 1 every point of attribute you had over 10 to a minimum of 1. That way a player could invest extra points into making their character stronger in a specific area, which would positively affect their Feruchemy. I'm going to change this a bit though; instead of making it where you can Store 1 charge every 1 point you have over 10, I'm going to make it where you can Store 3 charges plus 1 for every bonus point to you ability modifier. That way all Feruchemists can get a more reasonable charge, and it's harder to try and make your character overpowered. 3. Metalmind limits; yes, a Feruchemist can go out and buy more Metalminds, but they can be Pushed or Pulled on by Allomantic Iron/Steel. Even with them being resistant to such affects based on their number of charges, this can still be a vulnerability to them that they really need to consider. It's actually safer to take smaller Metalminds (which hold a lot fewer charges) since they can't be Pushed or Pulled on as easily. Plus, Metalmind implants are mostly going to have to stay small, and the number of them you can take isn't super high (compared to the number you can carry on the outside). 4. As a DM, I think it would probably be best to consider the length of time your players have in world between adventures. A quest like AoL or BoM usually last around a few days, and there's a time limit on them; they can't just doddle around Storing attributes all the time, as that would mean they fail their quest. This may potentially limit some areas, but I think that there can be usable work-arounds to prevent Feruchemy from being OP. Anyway, thank you guys for you help! I was really struggling with these two powers before, but I now have some really good ideas on how to handle them! I'll post more when I've got more solid ideas or questions 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted February 5 Report Share Posted February 5 32 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: I was planning on this for 3.5 actually, since there's generally more room to mess around with augmentation and such (a Feruchemist who- technically- has no upper bound on what they can Tap doesn't really fit into 5e as well, in my opinion). Plus, I just generally like that edition more. That's fair, I love 3.5 too, I've just had to slowly get used to the idea that most people mean 5e these days. (Literal 3.5, or Pathfinder?, btw). The only thing I can really say for 5E is that the Advantage/Disadvantage system makes it simpler to adapt oddball things on the fly when you're trying adapt make a new setting, but that's all to DM preference. 32 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: I was thinking about this, as Feruchemy does have a dangerous potential if played close to how it works canonically; a Feruchemist should, technically speaking, be able to sit around for a week Storing up attributes and become a powerhouse whenever they actually start an adventure. I have a couple things to try and balance this out, though obviously some playtesting may be necessary to make final changes. 1. Feruchemical powers become a lot more expensive the more you Tap; you can, technically, Tap to get a +10 to your strength score as a Brute by Storing up strength over long rests, but that would be a lot more costly than taking a +4 or +5 for several times the length. Basically, you need to be careful with how much you spend on a single encounter, as you may end up leaving yourself without any for later. 2. I'm lowering the amount of charges you can actually Store per long rest; the base mechanic I had for Feruchemy was that you could Store a certain number of charges based on certain factors, such as you ability scores. Originally, I was going to make the number of charges you could Store for something like pewter or steel equal 1 every point of attribute you had over 10 to a minimum of 1. That way a player could invest extra points into making their character stronger in a specific area, which would positively affect their Feruchemy. I'm going to change this a bit though; instead of making it where you can Store 1 charge every 1 point you have over 10, I'm going to make it where you can Store 3 charges plus 1 for every bonus point to you ability modifier. That way all Feruchemists can get a more reasonable charge, and it's harder to try and make your character overpowered. 3. Metalmind limits; yes, a Feruchemist can go out and buy more Metalminds, but they can be Pushed or Pulled on by Allomantic Iron/Steel. Even with them being resistant to such affects based on their number of charges, this can still be a vulnerability to them that they really need to consider. It's actually safer to take smaller Metalminds (which hold a lot fewer charges) since they can't be Pushed or Pulled on as easily. Plus, Metalmind implants are mostly going to have to stay small, and the number of them you can take isn't super high (compared to the number you can carry on the outside). 4. As a DM, I think it would probably be best to consider the length of time your players have in world between adventures. A quest like AoL or BoM usually last around a few days, and there's a time limit on them; they can't just doddle around Storing attributes all the time, as that would mean they fail their quest. This may potentially limit some areas, but I think that there can be usable work-arounds to prevent Feruchemy from being OP. Anyway, thank you guys for you help! I was really struggling with these two powers before, but I now have some really good ideas on how to handle them! I'll post more when I've got more solid ideas or questions I have an overall suggestion for General Feruchemy: One for One Bonus to Penalty Per Roll, banked for later. So like any reasonable Feruchemist you will choose the best place and time to Store, and it can represent an extended period of Vulnerability where thematically appropriate, etc but mechanically you make a Roll with a penalty and that banks an equivalent number of Bonus points to be spent Tapping on a later Roll. So if you are storing [Blank], you choose how much to attempt to store (ie the numeric Penalty) and then you will always make some Roll with whatever situational modifiers the DM feels are appropriate for the measures the Players have come up with(lying in Bed, being actively monitored by a Nurse, Supplemental O2 or Heat, etc). Regardless of the outcome you will have banked those Feruchemical Points, but failing means some consequence: While storing lots of Strength you failed to walk across your own bedroom and fell, taking a bit or damage. Or while storing Health you failed the roll and got the Flu. Or while storing Breath you started to hyperventilate and instead of Storing Points you just had to restart your Storing session with a smaller Penalty. Or while storing Physical Speed laying in bed listening to the radio you'll Not Move even harder with no real consequence at all. Once you have the Stored Points, you can use as many as you want to add to any single Roll in the future (appropriate to the metal). This way they get to be creative on when and how they Store to mitigate the downside, but if they try to do it on they fly it'll integrate into the story and balance relatively naturally. You'll have to work out some standard exchange rate for things like Gold where t can be cashed out for Constitution/Fortitude Rolls but also for direct HP healing. And the exchange rates for Compounding will need to be looked a little closer if you plan to have a lot of hemalurgy or twinborn, but twinborn and Fullborn are supoosed to be OP. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted February 5 Report Share Posted February 5 1 hour ago, Trusk'our said: Yeah, I have been focusing a little too much on a murder hobo system (my players pretty much always turn out that way ), so perhaps I should focus a little more on there being some powers that just aren't as useful for fighting but have roll play value. I still think that there's room for Allomantic gold to do some cool things, but perhaps it would require extra training to actually be useful (basically, you take feats to make them work). Yeah. I love D&D rules but I always felt that it was built for murder hobos way more than anything else. Powers don't usually get created to cater to more RP heavy games very well. Why get cool spells and abilities if you can't use them? And that is why I fell in love with the MAG. It has its issues (counting dice and negotiating dice can be a pain) but all in all the biggest draw is that combat works 3 ways! You have 3 different health pools. One for reputation one for willpower and one for actual physical health. The game is built to allow murder hobos to not only build a reputation as a great fighter but as a worthy opponent in the political and social ring as well. I have seen far less use for pewter burners in MAG campaigns than I have for soothers or rioters and copperclouds or seekers. A zinc ferring or tineye is almost always useful and your thug is really just there to wait for things to go terribly wrong. If you run around murdering everything because you are a combat superstar you could be in terrible danger at the next dinner party or debate... But rolling for attacks and damage during to whittle down this obligator and convince him to look the other way is far more satisfying than rolling a D20 as a charisma based character and suddenly he didn't see a thing when the murder literally just happened. Or if you are truly sinister... blackmailing people becomes and entire combat scene with the back and forth as they suddenly are fighting to make you back off of it. Everyone's reputation and willpower are at risk. Of course you be a bad soother and try to embarrass and destroy the reputation of a thug or coin shot could just end with them deciding to destroy your health back. A lot more risk in the MAG than D&D. A party wipe could just mean you get laughed out of town and always have to fight against that tarnished reputation for the rest of your life until you build back up. It makes the best use of all of the metals and abilities because more than half of them just plain do nothing for physical combat. With how rare metal born are and how rare it is to get the perfect combo I just think it is a worthy challenge to make it work in the D&D rules. (granted that is what authoring is all about. Noone is writing a story about some F-bronze A-duralumin character right?) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our Posted February 6 Author Report Share Posted February 6 11 hours ago, Quantus said: That's fair, I love 3.5 too, I've just had to slowly get used to the idea that most people mean 5e these days. (Literal 3.5, or Pathfinder?, btw). The only thing I can really say for 5E is that the Advantage/Disadvantage system makes it simpler to adapt oddball things on the fly when you're trying adapt make a new setting, but that's all to DM preference. Oh, it makes perfect sense to make such an assumption. I do as well, because 99% of the time if they don't specify that it isn't 5e, then it's 5e. And it does have its merits; it's definitely more streamlined and it's easier to learn to play. Plus, you don't have to put in as much planning (I feel, at least) for 5e because its simpler, which makes it easier to fit into people's schedules. I still like 3.5 for its more expansive rules and the possibilities that can be achieved when trying to assemble a powerful (and fun) character. For example, I love that you can split your skill points as you wish and that there is no limit to ability scores. Very fun to play a fighter or barbarian with a 24 in strength (and that's before counting magic item boosting) And speaking of ability scores, I feel that they are much better balanced in 3.5; strength and intelligence matter in 3.5, whereas in 5e they're dump stats unless you're specifically playing a barbarian or wizard. And even then, part of me feels bothered that I don't get more from those abilities than what is specifically laid out for that class. 12 hours ago, Quantus said: I have an overall suggestion for General Feruchemy: One for One Bonus to Penalty Per Roll, banked for later. So like any reasonable Feruchemist you will choose the best place and time to Store, and it can represent an extended period of Vulnerability where thematically appropriate, etc but mechanically you make a Roll with a penalty and that banks an equivalent number of Bonus points to be spent Tapping on a later Roll. So if you are storing [Blank], you choose how much to attempt to store (ie the numeric Penalty) and then you will always make some Roll with whatever situational modifiers the DM feels are appropriate for the measures the Players have come up with(lying in Bed, being actively monitored by a Nurse, Supplemental O2 or Heat, etc). Regardless of the outcome you will have banked those Feruchemical Points, but failing means some consequence: While storing lots of Strength you failed to walk across your own bedroom and fell, taking a bit or damage. Or while storing Health you failed the roll and got the Flu. Or while storing Breath you started to hyperventilate and instead of Storing Points you just had to restart your Storing session with a smaller Penalty. Or while storing Physical Speed laying in bed listening to the radio you'll Not Move even harder with no real consequence at all. Once you have the Stored Points, you can use as many as you want to add to any single Roll in the future (appropriate to the metal). This way they get to be creative on when and how they Store to mitigate the downside, but if they try to do it on they fly it'll integrate into the story and balance relatively naturally. You'll have to work out some standard exchange rate for things like Gold where t can be cashed out for Constitution/Fortitude Rolls but also for direct HP healing. So, let me see if I understand this suggestion correctly; the idea is that a Feruchemist may choose to take a certain penalty when Storing, and they make a roll. If they fumble it, they take some kind of negative consequence based on the attribute being Stored. The benefit (the number of charges Stored) is directly proportional to the penalty they take while Storing, but the more the Store the more risk there is of bad things happening to them, meaning they have to be careful when they choose to Store else they harm themselves more than they help. I actually really like that idea; it adds a level of choice and consideration for Feruchemists that isn't otherwise present and could help spice things up a bit. 12 hours ago, Quantus said: And the exchange rates for Compounding will need to be looked a little closer if you plan to have a lot of hemalurgy or twinborn, but twinborn and Fullborn are supoosed to be OP. Oh yeah, the way I have Compounding set up right now is super-duper busted. It's more of an NPC or villain ability than a PC one, or perhaps an option for a one shot where the DM says "screw it. I don't really care if you blow up the village to beat the BBEG. Have fun, you little psychopaths". (It's funny, I had a group destroy an entire town withing 5 minutes of gameplay once. I just said they walked fifteen minutes down the road and low and behold, a perfectly identical town to the old one was there. And then told them not to blow it up again. DMing a campaign is fun ) 11 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Yeah. I love D&D rules but I always felt that it was built for murder hobos way more than anything else. Powers don't usually get created to cater to more RP heavy games very well. Why get cool spells and abilities if you can't use them? And that is why I fell in love with the MAG. It has its issues (counting dice and negotiating dice can be a pain) but all in all the biggest draw is that combat works 3 ways! You have 3 different health pools. One for reputation one for willpower and one for actual physical health. The game is built to allow murder hobos to not only build a reputation as a great fighter but as a worthy opponent in the political and social ring as well. I have seen far less use for pewter burners in MAG campaigns than I have for soothers or rioters and copperclouds or seekers. A zinc ferring or tineye is almost always useful and your thug is really just there to wait for things to go terribly wrong. If you run around murdering everything because you are a combat superstar you could be in terrible danger at the next dinner party or debate... But rolling for attacks and damage during to whittle down this obligator and convince him to look the other way is far more satisfying than rolling a D20 as a charisma based character and suddenly he didn't see a thing when the murder literally just happened. Or if you are truly sinister... blackmailing people becomes and entire combat scene with the back and forth as they suddenly are fighting to make you back off of it. Everyone's reputation and willpower are at risk. Of course you be a bad soother and try to embarrass and destroy the reputation of a thug or coin shot could just end with them deciding to destroy your health back. A lot more risk in the MAG than D&D. A party wipe could just mean you get laughed out of town and always have to fight against that tarnished reputation for the rest of your life until you build back up. It makes the best use of all of the metals and abilities because more than half of them just plain do nothing for physical combat. To be fair, that's one of the big reasons I decided to start making a Mistborn homebrew; I do love me some D&D combat. . . but, I do love character interactions as well, especially when I get to DM a crazy gnome NPC who always carries 20 sticks of dynamite in his cargo pants' pockets. That's just the best . 11 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: With how rare metal born are and how rare it is to get the perfect combo I just think it is a worthy challenge to make it work in the D&D rules. (granted that is what authoring is all about. Noone is writing a story about some F-bronze A-duralumin character right?) Yeah, I'm going to be honest, I'm a bit of a cynic when it comes to random chance in obtaining your magic powers. Cause if I were in a magic setting, I probably wouldn't be one of the magic people. It's just not statistically probable or reliable. I know that's kind of a pointless way of looking at it (it is fantasy after all), but that's just how I'm wired, I guess. Now Hemalurgy. . . that's cool because you can choose which ones you get. You can work for it and achieve new abilities as you research and learn. I certainly hope I can do the magic justice in the homebrew. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 8 hours ago, Trusk'our said: Oh, it makes perfect sense to make such an assumption. I do as well, because 99% of the time if they don't specify that it isn't 5e, then it's 5e. And it does have its merits; it's definitely more streamlined and it's easier to learn to play. Plus, you don't have to put in as much planning (I feel, at least) for 5e because its simpler, which makes it easier to fit into people's schedules. I still like 3.5 for its more expansive rules and the possibilities that can be achieved when trying to assemble a powerful (and fun) character. For example, I love that you can split your skill points as you wish and that there is no limit to ability scores. Very fun to play a fighter or barbarian with a 24 in strength (and that's before counting magic item boosting) And speaking of ability scores, I feel that they are much better balanced in 3.5; strength and intelligence matter in 3.5, whereas in 5e they're dump stats unless you're specifically playing a barbarian or wizard. And even then, part of me feels bothered that I don't get more from those abilities than what is specifically laid out for that class. That's all very fair, though Im not sure I see why Str and Cha matter More in 3.5 than in 5e; they were firming Dump stats most of the time in 3.5, but with all Stats having an associated Save in 5e that becomes more dangerous. 8 hours ago, Trusk'our said: So, let me see if I understand this suggestion correctly; the idea is that a Feruchemist may choose to take a certain penalty when Storing, and they make a roll. If they fumble it, they take some kind of negative consequence based on the attribute being Stored. The benefit (the number of charges Stored) is directly proportional to the penalty they take while Storing, but the more the Store the more risk there is of bad things happening to them, meaning they have to be careful when they choose to Store else they harm themselves more than they help. I actually really like that idea; it adds a level of choice and consideration for Feruchemists that isn't otherwise present and could help spice things up a bit. Yes exactly, they essentially always have to perform a Storing Roll. Most of the time they'll do it in a nice safe location where they can mitigate the risk and be fine with situational logic, but if they're pushed into a corner they can (for example) be really slow for a couple rounds of combat (with penalties to DEX, etc) to bank a bonus for one big punch right after. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our Posted February 6 Author Report Share Posted February 6 6 hours ago, Quantus said: That's all very fair, though Im not sure I see why Str and Cha matter More in 3.5 than in 5e; they were firming Dump stats most of the time in 3.5, but with all Stats having an associated Save in 5e that becomes more dangerous. Str is used for all melee attacks and damage in 3.5. You can take a feat that lets you use your dex for the attack roll instead, but you still use str for the damage. Plus, I believe that there are composite bows that allow you to add your str modifier to your ranged damage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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