Do hemalurgic spikes have a memory?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I have seen it be said that hemalurgic spikes must touch blood to make the connection to a soul. I have a few questions regarding that. 

Vin and Wax both used earrings. The skin heals. 

Vin was literally spiked with hers and thus blood contact was made. I assume that she has removed and replaced it from time to time with no blood contact after that. I assume she loses the power while it is missing. Does this just mean that part of her soul is gone or does it fill in with the old bits while it is out? 

Did Wax pierce his ear fresh with the earring? I know he removes and replaces it multiple times but dont remember him repeircing himself. 

Perhaps the spikes rip out and replace a part of your soul on first contact and the persons spirit web simply recognizes when it is or is not present?  

[Duxredux he/him]

11 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I have seen it be said that hemalurgic spikes must touch blood to make the connection to a soul. I have a few questions regarding that. 

Vin and Wax both used earrings. The skin heals. 

Vin was literally spiked with hers and thus blood contact was made. I assume that she has removed and replaced it from time to time with no blood contact after that. I assume she loses the power while it is missing. Does this just mean that part of her soul is gone or does it fill in with the old bits while it is out? 

Did Wax pierce his ear fresh with the earring? I know he removes and replaces it multiple times but dont remember him repeircing himself. 

Perhaps the spikes rip out and replace a part of your soul on first contact and the persons spirit web simply recognizes when it is or is not present?  

This is interesting. Now that you mention it, there's a number of important ramifications surrounding these questions.

It does make sense that when a Hemalurgic spike is placed in the recipient, it pretty much is always done with Intent and so might punch out a portion of the soul. Certainly Vin's mother had the proper Intent when Vin's earring was made into a spike and the placement was to grant her A-Bronze. This also would explain why spikes get Identity keyed.

Spoiler

yulerule

Can you reuse a spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Uh, yes, technically, but not as easily as that question makes it sound.

yulerule

Can you re-use it if it's for the same exact thing or for a different thing? Will that change?

Brandon Sanderson

Spikes are going to get keyed by Identity--

yulerule

So you can't already spike that person. But if you spike and don't kill them can you spike the same person again?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah and if you can somehow strip the identity of the person or the spike-- So yes you can use them again but it comes into a sort of-- Like, you can't just take that spike and spike somebody else.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

This might also explain how an Atium spike stealing powers from a Mistborn is coded to grant the correct power.

That said... parts of this WoB may have been retconned out or the Set have figured out unkeyed spikes, otherwise this doesn't explain at all how Dumad's spikes granting A-Duralumin and A-Steel were harvested and reused by Wax and Wayne. 

Actually, now that I think about it, the four spike limit of Set members with Trellium doesn't quite explain why Lessie could be controlled with a normal spike and a Trellium spike. Maybe Kandra are just that much weaker...? It's weird.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I have seen it be said that hemalurgic spikes must touch blood to make the connection to a soul. I have a few questions regarding that. 

Vin and Wax both used earrings. The skin heals. 

Vin was literally spiked with hers and thus blood contact was made. I assume that she has removed and replaced it from time to time with no blood contact after that. I assume she loses the power while it is missing. Does this just mean that part of her soul is gone or does it fill in with the old bits while it is out? 

Did Wax pierce his ear fresh with the earring? I know he removes and replaces it multiple times but dont remember him repeircing himself. 

Perhaps the spikes rip out and replace a part of your soul on first contact and the persons spirit web simply recognizes when it is or is not present?  

I can't find the exact quote right now, but yes, a Hemalurgic only needs to make contact with your blood when initially piercing you. After that, it does seem to "remember" you and can be replaced easily. Wax did this with his earring many times.

It's an interesting idea that the spike may take something from the recipient as well as the donor. I can't say for certain right now whether it's the case or not.

Another possibility could be that it simply becomes attuned to its bearer over time, so it's more willing to go back, or the piercing location on the body is simply adjusted to accept a spike in that location. 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I have seen it be said that hemalurgic spikes must touch blood to make the connection to a soul. I have a few questions regarding that. 

Vin and Wax both used earrings. The skin heals. 

Vin was literally spiked with hers and thus blood contact was made. I assume that she has removed and replaced it from time to time with no blood contact after that. I assume she loses the power while it is missing. Does this just mean that part of her soul is gone or does it fill in with the old bits while it is out? 

Did Wax pierce his ear fresh with the earring? I know he removes and replaces it multiple times but dont remember him repeircing himself. 

Perhaps the spikes rip out and replace a part of your soul on first contact and the persons spirit web simply recognizes when it is or is not present?  

You are likely correct, the damage to the Spiritweb happens on first insertion of the Spike. After that, it seems to be like a wired internet connection (at least that is how my brain parses it) either the spike is out ("cable unplugged" - hole in spiritweb)  or the spike is in (connection established). 

Also, MeLaan gave Wax his earring, and while it is not explicitely said, it's implied that she pierced his ear with it (to get the correct bind point). SoS Ch 13:

Spoiler

 She wasn’t aloof, as he’d expected, or withdrawn. Not even that alien, despite the fact that she’d just made a mouth in her hand. “You’re the one who brought me my earring,” he said, fingering his ear with its tiny spike. “All those years ago.”

MeLaan’s smile widened. “I was wearing the same body, but I’m still surprised you remember.”

 

Edited February 1, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

26 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

yulerule

Can you reuse a spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Uh, yes, technically, but not as easily as that question makes it sound.

yulerule

Can you re-use it if it's for the same exact thing or for a different thing? Will that change?

Brandon Sanderson

Spikes are going to get keyed by Identity--

yulerule

So you can't already spike that person. But if you spike and don't kill them can you spike the same person again?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah and if you can somehow strip the identity of the person or the spike-- So yes you can use them again but it comes into a sort of-- Like, you can't just take that spike and spike somebody else.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

This might also explain how an Atium spike stealing powers from a Mistborn is coded to grant the correct power.

That said... parts of this WoB may have been retconned out or the Set have figured out unkeyed spikes, otherwise this doesn't explain at all how Dumad's spikes granting A-Duralumin and A-Steel were harvested and reused by Wax and Wayne. 

You've misunderstood the WoB. Brandon is saying that you can take a charged spike and steal another power with it because identity will cause issues (as seen in TLM), but you can take it and give it to someone else - inquisitors were doing that, Wax's earring is doing that. The identity in spike is the stolen Identity of the donor.

28 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Actually, now that I think about it, the four spike limit of Set members with Trellium doesn't quite explain why Lessie could be controlled with a normal spike and a Trellium spike. Maybe Kandra are just that much weaker...? It's weird.

Kandra aren't humans. 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Actually, now that I think about it, the four spike limit of Set members with Trellium doesn't quite explain why Lessie could be controlled with a normal spike and a Trellium spike. Maybe Kandra are just that much weaker...? It's weird.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Kandra aren't humans.

They are weaker. Stated explicitely in SoS (Ch 13):

Spoiler

MeLaan’s smile faded. “She only has one spike. She’s not thinking straight.”

“Yes,” Wax said, “but she pulled the other spike out herself, right?”

“We think so,” MeLaan admitted. “We’re weaker than other Hemalurgic creatures. Only two spikes, and we can be taken. So she removed one.”

“She wanted freedom to kill,” Wax said. “She’s not ‘confused,’ MeLaan. She’s destructive and possibly psychotic. Tell me how to kill her.”

MeLaan sighed. “Acid works, but that’s horribly inefficient. If you crush her skeleton, she’ll have a hard time moving, so maybe use that. Gunshots will be useless, as will most forms of physical damage. The spike—it’s the key. Pull it out, and she’ll revert to her primal state. It is the best way.”

Which is also why Era 1 Koloss had two blessings (four spikes) for TLR to maintain control (HoA Ch 40 Epigraph):

Spoiler

Originally, we assumed that a koloss was a combination of two people into one. That was wrong. Koloss are not the melding of two people, but five, as evidenced by the four spikes needed to make them. Not five bodies, of course, but five souls.

Each pair of spikes grants what the kandra would call the Blessing of Potency. However, each spike also distorts the koloss body a little more, making it increasingly inhuman. Such is the cost of Hemalurgy.

Humans needed at least four, Kandra only needed two (which also allowed them to have a resistance to control, which allowed them to have and act upon the Resolution). They were built that way on purpose. 

Annotations to HoA:

Spoiler

Ch 20:

Quote

You may have noticed something in this chapter. TenSoon mentions the food pits that the kandra people cultivate, a mixture of algae and fungus that they grow in holes in the ground. Yes, they can survive on this. No, it doesn’t taste very good. However, it doesn’t need light to grow.

Humankind couldn’t survive on this mixture, unfortunately. However, one thing that is never brought up in the text is something that not even the kandra know. There are several reasons that the Lord Ruler created them as he did. One of those reasons was so that there would be a people who could survive beneath the ground, should the world above be destroyed by the mists. In other words, he created a race of subterranean dwellers to outlast humankind, should that become necessary. He was the one who gave them the Homeland as their inheritance and taught them to begin growing food that would survive underground.

Then, of course, he decided to add the Resolution to their code of law. That was a precaution in case Ruin decided to claim them as his own. A bit self-defeating, true, but the Lord Ruler felt it was better for them to die than to become pawns of his most dangerous enemy.

Ch 79:

Quote

The Resolution

TenSoon and the other kandra resist Ruin and are able to pull the spikes from their shoulders. There are a couple of reasons why they can do this.

The power that Allomancers have to take control of them is the same power Ruin has. That control is exerted in the form of mental pressure through emotional Allomancy. As can be seen from Marsh’s viewpoint, it is more than simply forcing the body to act as Ruin wishes. The extreme pressure on emotions changes the very way the mind thinks, tricking it into doing exactly what Ruin wants. The flaw in Hemalurgists leaves them open to this kind of manipulation.

Kandra, who only have two spikes, are far more difficult to control than koloss or Inquisitors. Vin is able to control TenSoon with ease in book two, but that’s partially because he wanted her to do so. He would have been able to resist her. If she’d continued to push, she could have broken him, but it would have taken time.

Even Ruin’s pressure wasn’t enough to take control immediately. The kandra had a few moments during which they could overcome him and maintain their free will. Beyond that, they were in a cavern surrounded by metal ore in the walls, making it very difficult for Ruin to see what was going on and interfering with his ability to control them.