Theory: The soulcaster was a fake!

[Voidus]

I notice that you said in the OP that maybe soulcasting is genetic. Well we know Jasnah can soulcast, and we theorise that Elhokar can, so this supports that theory too. What if Gavilar could also?

I definitely think that there is some genetic component to Surgebinding, so yes this is definitely a possibility. Not sure which group he'd go into though...

[Aradel he/him]

the soulcaster (or at least half of it) would fall out of whatever pocket it was in when it got cut because the pocket would have also gotten cut, if the soulcaster was cut by a shardblade.

If the soulcaster was cut by a shardblade then the only explanation for it to be found in a pocket is if it was put there (unless you want to count the possibility that the blade became ninja for long enough to slip into the pocket and cut the soulcaster without cutting the pocket )

I remeber Shallan saying the cut was shallow, or one of the connecting chains were severed; I don't remember which. Either way, it was a small cut so if it was the Shardblade that did it, it only nicked his poket.

[master]

I wouldnt be surprised if both were fake. but that would mean surgebinding is more common than it seems to be.

[Voidus]

I wouldnt be surprised if both were fake. but that would mean surgebinding is more common than it seems to be.

Not necessarily, it could just have some genetic component, like allomancy.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Only insofar as the personality traits that allow one to form a bond with a spren are partially genetically inherited. And also determined by environment which will usually be similar for siblings.

[Voidus]

I saw something while reading yesterday that I don't think has been mentioned so I thought I'd revive this topic

Shallan mentions that Luesh said that it was easier to show how to use a soulcaster than tell how it is done, since we know that Kabsal mentions it in quite simplistic terms (tap a gem) that means that Luesh either didn't know how to use one or (more likely) was lying for some reason the only reasons I can think of are:

1. He was lying so that Shallan would have to give him the soulcaster which he would then simply steal (but it seems to me like he could have just stolen it almost as easily any other way)

2. He knows that it cannot be used because it is a fake but doesn't want Shallan to use it. (however in order to 'show them' how to use it he would then need to be able to soulcast by himself.

3. He only knew how the KR soulcast, not how an actual soulcaster worked but thought he might be able to work it out if he had one.

Any other ideas?

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I saw something while reading yesterday that I don't think has been mentioned so I thought I'd revive this topic

Shallan mentions that Luesh said that it was easier to show how to use a soulcaster than tell how it is done, since we know that Kabsal mentions it in quite simplistic terms (tap a gem) that means that Luesh either didn't know how to use one or (more likely) was lying for some reason the only reasons I can think of are:

1. He was lying so that Shallan would have to give him the soulcaster which he would then simply steal (but it seems to me like he could have just stolen it almost as easily any other way)

2. He knows that it cannot be used because it is a fake but doesn't want Shallan to use it. (however in order to 'show them' how to use it he would then need to be able to soulcast by himself.

3. He only knew how the KR soulcast, not how an actual soulcaster worked but thought he might be able to work it out if he had one.

Any other ideas?

4. Luesh may have been lying, and operating a real Soulcaster is as easy as Kabsal said it was.

Or, more likely, a real Soulcaster works by transporting its user to Shadesmar, in a similar way to how we see Shallan Soulcast. From the outside, all you see is a person tapping a stone, but that's only because all the action occurs on a different plane. I hadn't considered it before, but now that I've typed this, I kinda like it. It explains how the ardents doing spren/cooking research in the interlude know about Shadesmar and even bring up the question of whether it is possible to eat while visiting Shadesmar. If all that was involved was tapping a stone, I doubt there'd be much need to train ardents in their usage by converting things into metal as practice. (Iron which is then scrapped and then traded to the Shin.) The reason given for the practice is so that they don't screw up when making food and make something poisonous.

I think that it was a real, working Soulcaster before it was broken. (Probably by a shardblade, there's no other usage of the word "shear" in WoK outside of things being cut with shardblades.) If I remember correctly it cut through one of the stone settings and two chains, and the soulcaster was found in the interior breast pocket of her father's coat, but it doesn't say that he was wearing it.

[Voidus]

I think Shallan would almost certainly have found a reference to Shadesmar while she was trying to find out how to use the Soulcaster if that's how they worked.

As for why they practice with metal I would imagine that it's because metal isn't one of the ten essences and so is harder to Soulcast, why would they need to train it any more if they went to shadesmar?

As for the ardents who know about Shadesmar I would say that it is just some obscure piece of knowledge that they know, if it was as easy as using a soulcaster then they could go themselves to find out and also would know a lot more about it (eg. they would already know if you needed to eat)

[Aeshdan he/him]

Actually, metal is one of the Ten. It's the Eighth Essence. I don't know which metal that makes, but I'm guessing it's one of the sixteen Allomantic Metals.

[Voidus]

Good spot, actally that's kind of worse, why specifically Foil? darn you in-universe creations be more specific! Immediately that makes me think of either Tin or Aluminum but I think it is specified that the metal given to the Shin was Iron or Steel so the point may still hold, we can't really know until we get a better definition of Foil.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I think Shallan would almost certainly have found a reference to Shadesmar while she was trying to find out how to use the Soulcaster if that's how they worked.

As for why they practice with metal I would imagine that it's because metal isn't one of the ten essences and so is harder to Soulcast, why would they need to train it any more if they went to shadesmar?

As for the ardents who know about Shadesmar I would say that it is just some obscure piece of knowledge that they know, if it was as easy as using a soulcaster then they could go themselves to find out and also would know a lot more about it (eg. they would already know if you needed to eat)

“I wonder if they eat in the Cognitive Realm. Is a food there what it sees itself as being? I’ll have to read and see if anyone has ever eaten while visiting Shadesmar.”

Geranid responded with a noncommittal grunt, getting out her calipers and leaning closer to the heat to measure the flamespren. She frowned, then made another notation.

Here's the quote in question, how they know about people visiting Shadesmar. True, he doesn't mention sending messages to find out if any ardents have eaten there, just talks about reading to find out. Also, I didn't take note this before, but here is a male who reads, and probably not just Glyphs, those don't seem very good for communicating accounts of travels to Shadesmar. As to why they wouldn't be able to go themselves, I don't think they have a Soulcaster. Those two are out in the boonies away from the rest of the world, and that hardly warrants them being supplied with a precious Soulcaster.

[Aeshdan he/him]

Also, I didn't take note this before, but here is a male who reads, and probably not just Glyphs, those don't seem very good for communicating accounts of travels to Shadesmar.

Ardents are an exception to gender rules. Earlier in that same passage, the woman mentions that she's allowed to eat man's food because she's an ardent.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Ardents are an exception to gender rules. Earlier in that same passage, the woman mentions that she's allowed to eat man's food because she's an ardent.

Thank you, I'd forgotten that and passed over that line looking for the Shadesmar quote.

[Windrunner he/him]

Good spot, actally that's kind of worse, why specifically Foil? darn you in-universe creations be more specific! Immediately that makes me think of either Tin or Aluminum but I think it is specified that the metal given to the Shin was Iron or Steel so the point may still hold, we can't really know until we get a better definition of Foil.

I think that they could probably create any metal that is a pure element, and possibly alloys with more advanced Soulcasting. If you remember Jasnah tells Shallan that it's easier to Soulcast all 8 types of blood then it is to create water. So I imagine that they could probably fabricate just about any metal that they needed, barring atium and lerasium of course.

[lil_literalist he/him]

I would guess that even though soulcasting is a mysterious process, the act of doing so without a soulcasting fabrial is practically unheard of. We don't hear any indications from any ardents that they know of the possibility. Now this begs the question, How is Jasnah able to do so? I would guess that this is the KR powers coming back, with Jasnah being one of the first people in whom it manifests.

[Voidus]

I think that considering the only Soulcasting property of Amethyst is Metal it is unlikely that it can easily create any metal, I think Foil is almost certainly one specific type of Metal.

[Anaris]

I know it comes as a bit of offtopic , but i want to say something about the theory of schallan having a shardblade.

Honestly, i find that rather unlikely. As it is said in the books, shardbaldes are literaly priceless. If they were in possesion of a shardbalde, schallan's family could easily have repayed their debts (and probably buyed a smaller kingdom on top) by selling their blade to one of the Alethi highprinces or jah keved, or any other interest group on Roschar for that matter.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Anaris

[Windrunner he/him]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on this. There are numerous mentions of Shallan in relation to ten heartbeats. She even thinks about ten heartbeats when she needs a weapon. Ten heartbeats is the length of time it takes to summon a Shardblade.

I also don't think it's as simple as finding a buyer. Shardblades are extremely valuable and there would likely be an inquiry into how such a lowly family ended up with a Shardblade, something Shallan doesn't want, lest she be executed for murdering her father. Also it's extremely possible that what the Ghostbloods are actually looking for is the Shardblade, rather then the Soulcaster. So they could be in serious danger if they tried to sell it

[lil_literalist he/him]

I know it comes as a bit of offtopic , but i want to say something about the theory of schallan having a shardblade.

Honestly, i find that rather unlikely. As it is said in the books, shardbaldes are literaly priceless. If they were in possesion of a shardbalde, schallan's family could easily have repayed their debts (and probably buyed a smaller kingdom on top) by selling their blade to one of the Alethi highprinces or jah keved, or any other interest group on Roschar for that matter.

There's definitely evidence for it. I believe that in her brief flashback of her father's dead body, she's mentioned as holding a blade that is sharp enough to cut rock. Also, there are other references as well, such as thinking about what she could have done when the muggers attacked her and Jasnah.

If you pay attention, you can probably pick out more details. However, if you feel strongly about it and want to make a topic about it, go for it.

[Triasmus]

And someone asked Brandon if Shallan has what he thinks she has and Brandon said yes. Or something close to that. It was a little more clear. (It was only asked like that because of listening ears, spoilers are a no-no )

I'll see if I can find it.

[Voidus]

DUSTIN

Does the scene where Shallan is counting heartbeats mean what I think it means? It just kind of strange to imagine her carrying around of of those but then again she does like secrets.

BRANDON SANDERSON (GOODREADS)

It means what you think it means.

I think that's the quote you were looking for. I agree with Windrunner on this, it's likely just because their family suddenly owning a Shardblade would cause a whole lot of questions also because the next book is going to be about her and she has some KR powers she is probably going to start using it which I cannot wait for. XD

[Smidge]

To bring this back to the original topic

Put quite simply, the reason that Shallans fathers soulcaster didn't work after being repaired is that it never did. I realise it's probably a bit of a stretch to have both soulcasters being fake but I like my theory so I'm just going to ignore that and bribe you all with cookies. This is also an explanation as to why the ghostbloods want the soulcaster back so badly so that no one discovers that Brightlord Davar was actually a surgebinder, this basically all hangs around the fact that Scadriels forms of investiture were all hereditary so it may be the case on Roshar as well.Right, now COOKIES FOR EVERYONE!!!

I'm fairly certain that Brandon has said that the magic on Roshar is *not* inherited like on Scadrial but is instead based on people's actions. I tried to find it but I spent 10 minutes looking for one of the compilations people have made up of Brandon Q&As without being able to find where any of them were so I gave up. I considered this theory too but gave it up because of this fact. There is however the fact that families are often fairly similar people as CrazyRioter notes:

Only insofar as the personality traits that allow one to form a bond with a spren are partially genetically inherited. And also determined by environment which will usually be similar for siblings.

However Shallan doesn't exactly seem like she'd be similar to her father - though we don't know much about him except he's apparently a cruel abusive bastard. But on a reread I noticed this from the scene where Kabsal shows Shallan the sand pattern trick:

Shallan stifled a grimace. The Devotary of Purity focused on—as one might imagine—teaching one

to emulate the Almighty’s honesty and wholesomeness. The ardents at the devotary hall hadn’t known

what to make of her fascination with art. They’d always wanted her to do sketches of things they found

“pure.” Statues of the Heralds, depictions of the Double Eye.

Her father had chosen the devotary for her, of course.

I've always assumed the whole devotary/Calling thing originated from trying to encourage qualities to attract special spren for surgebinding, and that purpose was lost to history (and other irrelevent devotary's/callings came about). So it seems interesting that Shallan's Father chose a devotary for her that emphasizes honesty when based on the spren requiring Shallan to tell it truths we're pretty sure it's the quality that attracted the spren. I wonder if this was purposeful on Shallan's father's part and the Ghostbloods know all about surgebinding/becoming a surgebinder.

[Voidus]

BRANDON SANDERSON

He talked about the link between his magic systems. One of the core principles is 'investing'. In a lot of his systems people are through some mechanism invested with magic powers. In Elantris through the Shaod, In Mistborn it's genetic, in The Way of Kings it depends on what someone has done.

I think that's the quote you're looking for, it's a bit of a problem but I think there's probably still some genetic component, as you say it's probably just a genetic influence on your personality but we are also pretty sure that Elhokar is a Surgebinder and he's related to Jasnah so it is at least a possibility that it can influence it quite strongly.

Interesting point on the Devotaries I wouldn't take this as conclusive on anything as we do know that Shallans father was fairly controlling all of her life.

[Smidge]

I think that's the quote you're looking for, it's a bit of a problem but I think there's probably still some genetic component, as you say it's probably just a genetic influence on your personality but we are also pretty sure that Elhokar is a Surgebinder and he's related to Jasnah so it is at least a possibility that it can influence it quite strongly.

Interesting point on the Devotaries I wouldn't take this as conclusive on anything as we do know that Shallans father was fairly controlling all of her life.

That looks like it. It does seem coincidental that it seems like many different family members might be/become surgebinders of different types if there isn't a genetic component. I believe at one point Hoid does seem to hint that there may be some sort of reason people put lighteyes in charge though it may be irrelevent now (I forget where this is though). There's also the fact that people believe re: callings that lighteyes are naturally closer to achieving their calling than darkeyes. Maybe that's a hint that genetics can play a role in predisposition to attract spren.

Anyway, I just found it very suspicious that without Shallan being put in the Devotary of Purity by her father she may never have become a surgebinder (or that type of surgebinder).

[CrazyRioter she/her]

re: there being a (good) reason for the lighteyes thing, it's in the epilouge.

Edited May 4, 2012 by CrazyRioter