Alternative interpretation of the death rattle responsible for the child champion theory

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Quote

I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.

First of all, a big thanks to @agrabes for reminding me that the contract about the contest can be broken even after the contest. You just fail to follow its provision for your side if you lose.

One of the provisions in case the Radiants lose is that Dalinar will become a Fused doing Odium's bidding. The interpretation of this death rattle is that it is about the contest of champions. That is derived from it being a way you could make Dalinar refuse to fight. But Taravangian would rather have him break the contract than lose. Are those goals mutually exclusive?

So what if this is from after Dalinar's defeat?
I would put it bluntly, no use in sugar coating this, it will stay extremely dark in any case:

Can this be from Dalinar's perspective, whom Taravangian wants to make break the contract by ordering him to slaughter infants?

Odium is not above torturing people and Taravangian really believes in the necessary evil. Dalinar needs to serve Odium if he loses and wishes to heed the contract. I cannot help myself. It is logical.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

First of all, a big thanks to @agrabes for reminding me that the contract about the contest can be broken even after the contest. You just fail to follow its provision for your side if you lose.

One of the provisions in case the Radiants lose is that Dalinar will become a Fused doing Odium's bidding. The interpretation of this death rattle is that it is about the contest of champions. That is derived from it being a way you could make Dalinar refuse to fight. But Taravangian would rather have him break the contract than lose. Are those goals mutually exclusive?

So what if this is from after Dalinar's defeat?
I would put it bluntly, no use in sugar coating this, it will stay extremely dark in any case:

Can this be from Dalinar's perspective, whom Taravangian wants to make break the contract by ordering him to slaughter infants?

Odium is not above torturing people and Taravangian really believes in the necessary evil. Dalinar needs to serve Odium if he loses and wishes to heed the contract. I cannot help myself. It is logical.

Wouldn't that mean it was Taravangian who broke the terms because it was his servant who attacked and broke the promised peace? I don't think it would count as Dalinar/Honor breaking the contract, because Dalinar will obey Odium's commands. 

But it can still work like that, but not directly. If Taravangian gives Dalinar some vague orders, and Dalinar interprets it as he can kill innocent thus start a war on Odium's behalf, Dalinar might face a dilemma - either start a war and make Taravangian break the terms, or not.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Wouldn't that mean it was Taravangian who broke the terms because it was his servant who attacked and broke the promised peace? I don't think it would count as Dalinar/Honor breaking the contract, because Dalinar will obey Odium's commands.

No, because he can send him out into the Cosmere to conquer some hapless litte world or do this to the population of the lands he still holds, as the Radiants have lost the contest. Killing your own subjects is not breaching the peace.

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

No, because he can send him out into the Cosmere to conquer some hapless litte world or do this to the population of the lands he still holds, as the Radiants have lost the contest. Killing your own subjects is not breaching the peace.

While yes, Dalinar killing Odium's subjects won't break the terms, but Dalinar can kill them, he won't be counted as Honor's representative anymore, he would be Odium servant - his Fused. Dalinar killing kids under Odium's rule won't break the terms. 

Or do you suggest that Dalinar will refuse to kill kids because of his moral code, and thus he will disobey Odium's orders and break the terms as he was meant to be Odium's servant by those terms? Possible? But how much agency will Dalinar have after becoming his Fused? His soul would be filled with Odium's investiture and that might influence his mind, making him like Moash with no feeling or morality. But that's possible.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Or do you suggest that Dalinar will refuse to kill kids because of his moral code, and thus he will disobey Odium's orders and break the terms as he was meant to be Odium's servant by those terms?

Exactly. And we even have a prediction of what will happen then:

Quote

So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life...

 

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. And we even have a prediction of what will happen then:

Quote

So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life...

 

Right, why didn't I understand you earlier...

But there is a problem with this Death Rattle. In this context choosing not to be Anakin is the choice of honor, but it means freeing Odium, it means "death" not "life." It's an honorable choice, but worse than killing kids. But the night will indeed reign if kids aren't killed. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But there is a problem with this Death Rattle. In this context choosing not to be Anakin is the choice of honor, but it means freeing Odium, it means "death" not "life." It's an honorable choice, but worse than killing kids. But the night will indeed reign if kids aren't killed. 

Journey before destination.

Sorry, I could not resist.

[agrabes]

Hey thanks for the shoutout.  This definitely would be an interesting way to go and it ties in with the death rattle.  

I like your idea and think it would be a good story, but I was personally thinking more along the lines of Dalinar winning the contest of champions and then breaking the agreement.  The agreement says Dalinar will let Odium keep the lands he controls (not sure if this is at the time of the agreement or at the time of the contest) minus Herdaz and Alethkar.  I could easily see a situation where something like this happens:

1) If the deal is based on who controls what at the time of the Contest, then Odium makes a huge push and conquers land that Dalinar has made an oath to protect right at the last second.  Dalinar wins the contest and then has to choose between breaking his oath and honoring the deal with Odium, or keeping his oath and breaking the deal with Odium.

2) If the deal is based on who controls what at the time the deal is made, then during the 10 days Odium gets some of his followers to pose as refugees from some of the lands he controls.  Or, he gets his followers to chase refugees out to Dalinar.  They beg for Dalinar's aid and protection.  Maybe he doesn't know where they are from.  He swears an oath to defend them or to restore their lands.  Dalinar wins the contest and the refugees tell him it's now time for Dalinar to hold up his end of the bargain.  What does he do?  Will he break his promise, or set Odium free?

[Master Silver]

12 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. And we even have a prediction of what will happen then:

 

Oh no..... I am just re-reading Oathbringer. And I just finished the chapter, where Dalinar and Taravangian are talking about a hypothetical with 3 murderers and one innocent, and Taravangian says you hang them all, but Dalinar says, taking the life of one innocent, is one too many. Dalinar also, didn't kill that little one when he won Oathbringer. Taravangian may know all of this, so that will make it hard for our man to win. Unless by refusing to kill the child Dalinar ascends. But even if he refuses to kill the kid, that just means the contest doesn't end. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 hours ago, agrabes said:

I like your idea and think it would be a good story, but I was personally thinking more along the lines of Dalinar winning the contest of champions and then breaking the agreement.  The agreement says Dalinar will let Odium keep the lands he controls (not sure if this is at the time of the agreement or at the time of the contest) minus Herdaz and Alethkar.  I could easily see a situation where something like this happens:

The problem I see with that very plausible situation  is that it is quite conventional an issue when drawing up a ceasefire, hence Dalinar must have considered it.

[alder24]

13 hours ago, agrabes said:

1) If the deal is based on who controls what at the time of the Contest, then Odium makes a huge push and conquers land that Dalinar has made an oath to protect right at the last second.  Dalinar wins the contest and then has to choose between breaking his oath and honoring the deal with Odium, or keeping his oath and breaking the deal with Odium.

10 days is far too little for Odium forces to make any push in any direction. His army was just repelled fully from Azish territory and there is no way for them to get back and conquer a significant portion of it. Odium's army is in no position for a rapid invasion anywhere, they aren't prepared and they can't prepare for something like that in just under 10 days. The only place where they can strike is the Shattered Plains, which are still weeks away from Alethkar - too far for Odium's army to march and strike there in 10 days. Plus there is an Oathgate there, Dalinar can react fast and send reinforcements immediately. Fighting on plateaus was already proven to be very difficult in WoK and WoR, this time Alethi control both the outskirts and the center of the Plains and they are quite fortified there.

The only way I can see Odium pulling off something like this is by sending all his Heavenly Ones and Skybreakers, with Lashed Fused of other types, into one of Dalinar's most valuable positions, like Azimir or Thaylen City. They only need to take full control over the city for 10 days at most, which is hard without any support of regular troops but possible if they aren't facing any Radiants. They would need to immediately seize and destroy the Oathgates to prevent any Radiant reinforcements from arriving. The problem with Azimir is that there is a huge Dalinar's army in Emul stationed right now, full of Radiants and mobile troops, they would react fast and aid the city's defenses. The city itself is also probably full of reserve units and recovering troops, all armed to the teeth. Azimir would be a tough nut to crack for his Fused, the defenders can easily delay Fused long enough for help to arrive. A push for Thaylen City already failed once so I doubt Brandon would try the same again, but since there is no army nearby, it's more likely to succeed. 

However both of those positions would be unsustainable for Fused. They won't be able to bring any reinforcement even after the Contest, any food or supplies, they won't be able to hold onto those positions, they would have to abandon them or face massive population revolts. It's also too risky to throw everything at such a gamble. It only takes defenders to fight for every single building to successfully delay Fused enough for Windrunners to arrive and for the Contest to happen, thus successfully denying them control over the city. Dalinar would have no reasons to break the terms because he knows Fused would have to either abandon this conquered city or just be trapped there forever with a hostile population. Shardbearers can’t hold positions. I deem this tactic can’t achieve any measurable success for Odium, it would just bind him and waste his time and Fused for no gain at all. This is not the way.

[Master Silver]

I'd agree that 10 days is too short of a time for any major stroke to be launched against Dalinar's coalition. Especially since, one Odium is still extremely new to his powers and coordination and execution of orders takes time. Two, Dalinar is coming off of major victories. He has lost a few Radiants, lots of troops, but it seems like Odium has lost a large portion of the Heavenly Ones along with his chief scholar and a very capable (but insane) fused. Which side is the city of Kohbranth (Taravangians old kingdom on)?

More on topic, Taravangian said Odium should have never allowed himself to be maneuvered into a contest of champions. If the contest is prolonged (since it only is over when one champion is killed), if it is a child who cannot hurt Dalinar and Dalinar refuses to kill the child. The contest could be dragged out for 20 years, giving Odium time to wage his war. Nothing in the contract prevents the contest from taking an extremely long time. In 20 year Dalinar will be in his mid-seventies. 

[agrabes]

On 1/3/2024 at 7:19 AM, alder24 said:

10 days is far too little for Odium forces to make any push in any direction. His army was just repelled fully from Azish territory and there is no way for them to get back and conquer a significant portion of it. Odium's army is in no position for a rapid invasion anywhere, they aren't prepared and they can't prepare for something like that in just under 10 days. The only place where they can strike is the Shattered Plains, which are still weeks away from Alethkar - too far for Odium's army to march and strike there in 10 days. Plus there is an Oathgate there, Dalinar can react fast and send reinforcements immediately. Fighting on plateaus was already proven to be very difficult in WoK and WoR, this time Alethi control both the outskirts and the center of the Plains and they are quite fortified there.

The only way I can see Odium pulling off something like this is by sending all his Heavenly Ones and Skybreakers, with Lashed Fused of other types, into one of Dalinar's most valuable positions, like Azimir or Thaylen City. They only need to take full control over the city for 10 days at most, which is hard without any support of regular troops but possible if they aren't facing any Radiants. They would need to immediately seize and destroy the Oathgates to prevent any Radiant reinforcements from arriving. The problem with Azimir is that there is a huge Dalinar's army in Emul stationed right now, full of Radiants and mobile troops, they would react fast and aid the city's defenses. The city itself is also probably full of reserve units and recovering troops, all armed to the teeth. Azimir would be a tough nut to crack for his Fused, the defenders can easily delay Fused long enough for help to arrive. A push for Thaylen City already failed once so I doubt Brandon would try the same again, but since there is no army nearby, it's more likely to succeed. 

However both of those positions would be unsustainable for Fused. They won't be able to bring any reinforcement even after the Contest, any food or supplies, they won't be able to hold onto those positions, they would have to abandon them or face massive population revolts. It's also too risky to throw everything at such a gamble. It only takes defenders to fight for every single building to successfully delay Fused enough for Windrunners to arrive and for the Contest to happen, thus successfully denying them control over the city. Dalinar would have no reasons to break the terms because he knows Fused would have to either abandon this conquered city or just be trapped there forever with a hostile population. Shardbearers can’t hold positions. I deem this tactic can’t achieve any measurable success for Odium, it would just bind him and waste his time and Fused for no gain at all. This is not the way.

You're thinking of this the wrong way.  Odium's goal is not to win the war against Dalinar, his goal is to trick Dalinar or his allies into violating the terms of the agreement.  Odium doesn't have to capture a strategically significant position and he doesn't have to capture it for a long time.  In the most extreme example, he could simply send his Heavenly Ones and Skybreakers to an unimportant and lightly defended medium sized city and occupy it in the last few hours of the ten days.  Then, per the treaty it is his territory and Dalinar is not allowed to take it back.  So maybe he decides to start killing off civilians, one a day until Dalinar stops him.  Or maybe he doesn't even do that.  Dalinar swore an oath to protect them and keep them out of Odium's hands.  Dalinar might be compelled by his oath to fight to take that city back even if most of the people there don't mind being ruled by Odium. 

At worst, you have a "West Berlin" situation.  Odium can't break the terms of the deal due to his nature as a shard and how he is bound by the Oathpact so he will not fight Dalinar's side. He will have to be allowed peaceful passage to and from his territory.  So he can bring in troops, supplies, etc after the contest is over.  And if the population rises up against him, all the better.  Either they have violated the deal if the rebels align themselves with Dalinar, or if they don't they create a humanitarian crisis which puts pressure on Dalinar to interfere and break the terms of the deal.

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, agrabes said:

You're thinking of this the wrong way.  Odium's goal is not to win the war against Dalinar, his goal is to trick Dalinar or his allies into violating the terms of the agreement.  Odium doesn't have to capture a strategically significant position and he doesn't have to capture it for a long time.  In the most extreme example, he could simply send his Heavenly Ones and Skybreakers to an unimportant and lightly defended medium sized city and occupy it in the last few hours of the ten days.  Then, per the treaty it is his territory and Dalinar is not allowed to take it back.  So maybe he decides to start killing off civilians, one a day until Dalinar stops him.  Or maybe he doesn't even do that.  Dalinar swore an oath to protect them and keep them out of Odium's hands.  Dalinar might be compelled by his oath to fight to take that city back even if most of the people there don't mind being ruled by Odium. 

Dalinar is not Kaladin. He understands there are casualties in the war and there are things he can't protect and even shouldn't protect. A random city taken by Odium won't change Dalinar's decision because he knows what's at stake. Sure, if it's possible he will avoid it, but he as a leader and general knows he sometimes needs to bleed to win. It's the nature of war. What specific Oaths did Dalinar make about protection? He only swore to the Herdazian general that he will retake Herdaz if possible - which he is doing. 

7 minutes ago, agrabes said:

At worst, you have a "West Berlin" situation.  Odium can't break the terms of the deal due to his nature as a shard and how he is bound by the Oathpact so he will not fight Dalinar's side. He will have to be allowed peaceful passage to and from his territory.  So he can bring in troops, supplies, etc after the contest is over.  And if the population rises up against him, all the better.  Either they have violated the deal if the rebels align themselves with Dalinar, or if they don't they create a humanitarian crisis which puts pressure on Dalinar to interfere and break the terms of the deal.

That's my point, he doesn't have to allow any passage. The terms don't speak about this. If Odium can't get to his forces in some random place which he conquered in the last days, they will have to abandon this position because it's unsustainable. Then it's simply the will of people that will decide to rejoin the country they used to belong to or remain neutral and Dalinar simply can deny any involvement in this - he bears no responsibility for Odium's inability to hold the territory he conquered. It's not breaking of the contract if Odium abandons this position first. There would also be too little Fused to control that population and they can simply leave the city and avoid occupation entirely. Shardbearers can't hold the ground. All Dalinar has to do is sit and watch.

[agrabes]

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

Dalinar is not Kaladin. He understands there are casualties in the war and there are things he can't protect and even shouldn't protect. A random city taken by Odium won't change Dalinar's decision because he knows what's at stake. Sure, if it's possible he will avoid it, but he as a leader and general knows he sometimes needs to bleed to win. It's the nature of war. What specific Oaths did Dalinar make about protection? He only swore to the Herdazian general that he will retake Herdaz if possible - which he is doing. 

That's my point, he doesn't have to allow any passage. The terms don't speak about this. If Odium can't get to his forces in some random place which he conquered in the last days, they will have to abandon this position because it's unsustainable. Then it's simply the will of people that will decide to rejoin the country they used to belong to or remain neutral and Dalinar simply can deny any involvement in this - he bears no responsibility for Odium's inability to hold the territory he conquered. It's not breaking of the contract if Odium abandons this position first. There would also be too little Fused to control that population and they can simply leave the city and avoid occupation entirely. Shardbearers can't hold the ground. All Dalinar has to do is sit and watch.

What oaths did Dalinar swear?  None yet that I know of.  The entire point of my post is to provide possible ways Dalinar could win the contest and then violate the deal.  One way would be for him to realize he's bound by conflicting oaths - one that says he must protect certain people and another that says he must let them die.  He could easily swear a new oath in the early part of SA5.

It's not spelled out that each side can cross the other's territory to get to their own territory in what we see of the deal on screen, but seems likely to be part of it.  Those are the kinds of provisions always included in these types of deals.  If you look at any contract in the real world about this kind of thing, it always includes provisions to make it so someone can't landlock you out of the use of your property.  And if the two sides are at peace, there seems to be no reason to prevent them from entering each other's territory.  Generally peace deals include things like the right of each others' citizens to enter each other's territory.  If it was during war - yes everything you're saying is true.  But if you agree to peace with someone who controls a city in the middle of your territory, you're agreeing to let them access it.  Just like West Berlin - there may be tension but it will be allowed.  After Stalin cut off land access, the NATO side supplied the city by air for several years.  Theoretically, the Soviets could have shot those planes down, but they knew that would start a nuclear war so they didn't.  So what would really happen is, at worst Odium would send supplies and reinforcements by air.  He'd probably do something similar to the "Fourth Bridge" we see in RoW.

Even in the worst case - let's say everything you are saying is correct.  Odium sends a small force and captures a city.  Dalinar ignores it, knowing it's best for him to let it go.  Odium's forces can't come and go, so they can't effectively rule.  The people rise up in their own name and do not propose to join Dalinar.  They are free of Odium's effective rule.  Ultimately, they still all starve to death and the land remains in Odium's control.  Per the terms of the deal, that land belongs to Odium and Odium can refuse to allow Dalinar to send any aid to the city or allow anyone to enter the city at all.  The Fused hole up in the city walls and prevent anyone from leaving.  They might not be able to effectively hold the city against military invasion but they would have enough people to hold the city gates against a popular uprising for 6 months until everyone starves to death.  So we end up with a situation where people begin starving to death because no one is allowed to come in or go out of the city.  If Dalinar sends aid, he's violated the deal and Odium goes free.  I just don't see Dalinar sitting around and watching a city die of starvation any more than I see him watching Odium slaughter a city of people he views as his.  You're right, Dalinar isn't Kaladin and he understands sacrifices must be made for tactical reasons.  But that and this are different.  He's the ruler of his people, choosing to let thousands of people die in suffering.  That does not square with his oaths as a Bondsmith in my opinion.  But who knows - this whole scenario will probably never happen anyway.   

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, agrabes said:

What oaths did Dalinar swear?  None yet that I know of. 

And that's my point. There is very little time for Dalinar to swear an Oath, that he doesn't need to swear because he believes war will end in 10 days.

14 minutes ago, agrabes said:

The entire point of my post is to provide possible ways Dalinar could win the contest and then violate the deal.  One way would be for him to realize he's bound by conflicting oaths - one that says he must protect certain people and another that says he must let them die.  He could easily swear a new oath in the early part of SA5.

Again, there is no reason for him to swear such an oath and Odium can't exploit it because he is meant to maintain peace and not attack Dalinar's allies in any way. Odium would need to conquer that place before the duel but there is no such place binding Dalinar with an Oath. 

Sure, I agree there are ways to break the oath after the duel, such as the one proposed by Oltux, but this is not one of them. If Odium makes the first move, he is breaking the terms.

17 minutes ago, agrabes said:

It's not spelled out that each side can cross the other's territory to get to their own territory in what we see of the deal on screen, but seems likely to be part of it. 

It doesn't. No side even needs that. It's for them to decide.

18 minutes ago, agrabes said:

there seems to be no reason to prevent them from entering each other's territory.

It's called border control. 

[coolsnow7]

On 1/2/2024 at 8:41 AM, Oltux72 said:

First of all, a big thanks to @agrabes for reminding me that the contract about the contest can be broken even after the contest. You just fail to follow its provision for your side if you lose.

One of the provisions in case the Radiants lose is that Dalinar will become a Fused doing Odium's bidding. The interpretation of this death rattle is that it is about the contest of champions. That is derived from it being a way you could make Dalinar refuse to fight. But Taravangian would rather have him break the contract than lose. Are those goals mutually exclusive?

So what if this is from after Dalinar's defeat?
I would put it bluntly, no use in sugar coating this, it will stay extremely dark in any case:

Can this be from Dalinar's perspective, whom Taravangian wants to make break the contract by ordering him to slaughter infants?

Odium is not above torturing people and Taravangian really believes in the necessary evil. Dalinar needs to serve Odium if he loses and wishes to heed the contract. I cannot help myself. It is logical.

It’s possible but extremely uninteresting. We didn’t need a Deathrattle for that. If book 5 is just “Odium get Dalinar to lose via a perfectly conventional fight, and then gets him to break the agreement by having him kill a child”, aside from not fitting other pieces (the Deathrattle itself refers to “give us further breath to draw” - who’s “us” if Dalinar is already protected in the agreement?) would just make for an extremely boring book.

It’s also not consistent with Hoid needing an expert on intershardal law, which we know from a pre-read. And it’s this reason that I think any theorizing about the precise mechanics of how Odium wiggles his way out of this is a waste of time (since we certainly are not experts on intershardal law).

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

It’s possible but extremely uninteresting. We didn’t need a Deathrattle for that. If book 5 is just “Odium get Dalinar to lose via a perfectly conventional fight, and then gets him to break the agreement by having him kill a child”, aside from not fitting other pieces (the Deathrattle itself refers to “give us further breath to draw” - who’s “us” if Dalinar is already protected in the agreement?) would just make for an extremely boring book.

If Dalinar breaks the contract he won't be protected any longer. And further breath is quite clear. He knows that the next baby will come. Taravangian is not going to stop after the first. "Us" is the humans of Roshar.

And boring? No, not really. If this contest happens and ends like planned, the Stormlight Archive is over. If there is anything to tell in the second half, something unexpected must happen.

[ConfusedCow]

     The weird thing about this death rattle are the pronouns. Why is it "his throat" and "its blood"?  Are they two different beings?  Which if any of them are the suckling child? Is it just an errant typo?  That would be unusual for Brandon.  Does it hint that the suckling child might not be human?   

      The last phrase is also weirdly constructed "and with it gain us further breath to draw." Why not just write "and save us all" or "and keep us breathing a little longer"? What does 'with it' and the 'to draw' add? Why is the extra unrelated imagery about breathing there in the first place? Certainly the passage is vivid enough already. I suppose the true secret is to write in such a way that your readers can't tell whether your backward, bizarre, brilliant or benighted.  

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 1/2/2024 at 4:43 PM, alder24 said:

Or do you suggest that Dalinar will refuse to kill kids because of his moral code, and thus he will disobey Odium's orders and break the terms as he was meant to be Odium's servant by those terms? Possible? But how much agency will Dalinar have after becoming his Fused? His soul would be filled with Odium's investiture and that might influence his mind, making him like Moash with no feeling or morality. But that's possible.

I should have addressed this part. Leshwi has shown us that Fused can outright betray Odium. There seems to be no influence on their character or mind. Moash serves Odium by another mechanism.