Did Taravangian Sneak into Kaladin and Shallan's Backstories?

[TheLazyOwl]

The first time I read "The Way of Kings," a couple of things about Taravangian slipped by me because I didn't realize how significant a character he would eventually be. Could he be involved in Kaladin and Shallan's lives this early? Much of this revelation came to me during my reread when I realized that Kharbranth is a city-state. This leads me to believe that anyone associated with Kharbranth has the potential to be connected with Taravangian.

Kaladin

 

Kaladin's first flashback introduces two intriguing elements. Firstly, Lirin worked as a courier in Kharbranth. Secondly, Kaladin was to be sent there to train as a surgeon.

So, my first question: has Lirin ever met Taravangian? He is described as being a courier, which feels very vague to me, especially when it is being told to a 12-year-old Kaladin. What were you movin', Lirin?

My second question: Kaladin was supposed to train as a surgeon in Kharbranth. Would this have led to Kaladin being under the tutelage of Taravangian instead of Dalinar? Did someone "save" Kaladin from ending up in Kharbranth, or was it just fate or coincidence?

Shallan
 

On reread, I noticed something crazy I had missed before. Shallan meets Jasnah in Kharbranth. Coincidence? It is explicitly stated that Jasnah never intended to meet Shallan; she was essentially dodging her. Why is Shallan still in Kharbranth that day? She had to save a granddaughter in distress! She soulcasts some rock away (with a fake Soulcaster). My theory is that Shallan was only able to petition Jasnah because of how tired Jasnah was from soulcasting that day. Sanderson makes it clear that she is very exhausted back at the Palanaeum. By the way, whose granddaughter was that? Taravangian's! We even know this was planned by Taravangian.

In a paraphrased conversation:

Darkness: Ok. Um… did Taravangian arrange for his granddaughter to be trapped so he could see Jasnah soulcasting?

Brandon Sanderson: Um, he used an opportunity that he could've gotten to through a multitude of ways to check on some things. But it is his granddaughter, and she really was in danger.

Darkness: Yep, he really did seem concerned.

Brandon Sanderson: Yes.

(I would post the link to the WOB but I believe is Spam filtered be cause of it.

(Side note: He laments in this chapter that his granddaughter could be saved if ONLY someone had a Shardblade. He is literally in the presence of two women with Nahel bonds.)

In essence, my main theory is, is this a coincidence, or has Taravangian meddled in the lives of Kaladin and Shallan? I'm about 50% through my reread of "The Way of Kings," so I'm still looking for more Taravangian plotting!
 

[Aredor]

I can certainly believe that Taravangian would have meddled in Shallan's story, and think that maybe the Diagram could say "there will be a ward for Jasnah Kholin that comes to Kharbranth make her manifest the Nahel Bond."

Possibly if Kaladin had gone to Kharbranth he would have been manipulated by Taravangian, but Lirin was there before Taravangian went to the Nightwatcher, and so was probably not manipulated by Taravangian. 

[TheLazyOwl]

4 hours ago, Aredor said:

I can certainly believe that Taravangian would have meddled in Shallan's story, and think that maybe the Diagram could say "there will be a ward for Jasnah Kholin that comes to Kharbranth make her manifest the Nahel Bond."

Possibly if Kaladin had gone to Kharbranth he would have been manipulated by Taravangian, but Lirin was there before Taravangian went to the Nightwatcher, and so was probably not manipulated by Taravangian. 

Oh! I didn't even think about the timeline of when the Diagram was actually made. Thanks for the heads up!

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Why would Taravangian need to seek out Knights Radiant by looking for people surviving unsurvivable accidents under that premise?

[alder24]

11 hours ago, TheLazyOwl said:

The first time I read "The Way of Kings," a couple of things about Taravangian slipped by me because I didn't realize how significant a character he would eventually be. Could he be involved in Kaladin and Shallan's lives this early?

That's very unlikely. Taravangian only began to scheme after Gavilar's assassination. That's when he went to Nightwatcher, that's when he created the Diagram and that's when he started his moves. It's very unlikely he was in any way involved in Kal or Shallan's past as at that point in time he wasn't trying to save Roshar. 

11 hours ago, TheLazyOwl said:

So, my first question: has Lirin ever met Taravangian? He is described as being a courier, which feels very vague to me, especially when it is being told to a 12-year-old Kaladin. What were you movin', Lirin?

We don't know. Even if they did meet, Taravangian had no ill intentions at that point and didn't play in the "conquer the world" game. He wouldn't really care about Lirin. He was just an old king back then.

11 hours ago, TheLazyOwl said:

My second question: Kaladin was supposed to train as a surgeon in Kharbranth. Would this have led to Kaladin being under the tutelage of Taravangian instead of Dalinar? Did someone "save" Kaladin from ending up in Kharbranth, or was it just fate or coincidence?

But this is an interesting question. What if Kaladin was sent to Kharbranth? He would end up in Taravangian's hospitals, and that would be after Taravangian went to Nightwatcher, thus bloodletting would be a thing. Kaladin might have gotten involved in this and exposed the king leading to his abdication. I highly doubt Kaladin would ever be ok with those practices. Very interesting.

11 hours ago, TheLazyOwl said:

Shallan meets Jasnah in Kharbranth. Coincidence? It is explicitly stated that Jasnah never intended to meet Shallan; she was essentially dodging her. Why is Shallan [Jasnah] still in Kharbranth that day?

Jasnah stayed longer in Kharbranth because she wanted to gain full access to the library and books. That's not coincidence, but that's not Taravangian's doing. Jasnah was doing research and she needed to find sources.

11 hours ago, TheLazyOwl said:

She had to save a granddaughter in distress! She soulcasts some rock away (with a fake Soulcaster).

That was a test. While the collapse happened naturally, Taravangian thought it would be a great opportunity to observe Jasnah soulcasting, as he already had his doubts about her.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Rescuing Taravangian's granddaughter

So, Taravangian set this entire thing up. He wanted to see Jasnah's Soulcaster in action. He had the resources to get through that rock, if he'd wanted to—but he wanted to see Jasnah work, and he wanted to have an opportunity to interact with her. His eyes have been on her for a while.

The Way of Kings Annotations (Nov. 3, 2017)

 

11 hours ago, TheLazyOwl said:

My theory is that Shallan was only able to petition Jasnah because of how tired Jasnah was from soulcasting that day. Sanderson makes it clear that she is very exhausted back at the Palanaeum

That's not from soulcasting, but from days or weeks of frantic researching, reading and sleepless nights. Jasnah didn't sleep much, she kept searching for more information about Desolations and Voidbringers. It wasn't Taravangian's fault.

11 hours ago, TheLazyOwl said:

In essence, my main theory is, is this a coincidence, or has Taravangian meddled in the lives of Kaladin and Shallan? I'm about 50% through my reread of "The Way of Kings," so I'm still looking for more Taravangian plotting

Coincidence. He would be unable to mess with Kaladin as that would be all before Taravangian's meeting with Nightwatcher, Diagram was also not interested in Davar family, Ghostbloods were. Timeline also wouldn't fit - much of Shallan's story happened before Taravangian went to Nightwatcher.

However Taravangian was interested in Jasnah, he was hoping that she would understand him and join the Diagram:

Spoiler

Tim

Hey, I've been thinking about that section in WoK with Jasnah and the "thieves" she killed, and it feels like a setup to me - it's weird that the messages Taravangian sends to the guard are on Jasnah's radar, and Jasnah even says that the situation is odd enough to "suspect that there is more going on".

Was this a Taravangian plot?

Taravangian leaks the information about the "reprimands" he sent to his city watch about these dangerous criminals, and watches to see how Jasnah reacts to it, ideally catcher her using her powers? (Just like how he used that cave-in to test her Soulcasting).

Brandon Sanderson

Taravangian was under the hope that Jasnah would see the world the way he does--with a very strict (even dangerous) level of utilitarianism. He thought about recruiting her to his mission, but decided against it for various reasons.

General Reddit 2020 (Oct. 26, 2020)

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by alder24

[+Oltux72 he/him]

23 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But this is an interesting question. What if Kaladin was sent to Kharbranth? He would end up in Taravangian's hospitals, and that would be after Taravangian went to Nightwatcher, thus bloodletting would be a thing. Kaladin might have gotten involved in this and exposed the king leading to his abdication. I highly doubt Kaladin would ever be ok with those practices. Very interesting.

This institution was set up by a highly intelligent man who could have taken precautions and was not as sentimental as Amaram. Kaladin would have ended up with a slit throat.

[TheLazyOwl]

On 12/26/2023 at 6:42 AM, alder24 said:

That's very unlikely. Taravangian only began to scheme after Gavilar's assassination. That's when he went to Nightwatcher, that's when he created the Diagram and that's when he started his moves. It's very unlikely he was in any way involved in Kal or Shallan's past as at that point in time he wasn't trying to save Roshar. 

We don't know. Even if they did meet, Taravangian had no ill intentions at that point and didn't play in the "conquer the world" game. He wouldn't really care about Lirin. He was just an old king back then.

But this is an interesting question. What if Kaladin was sent to Kharbranth? He would end up in Taravangian's hospitals, and that would be after Taravangian went to Nightwatcher, thus bloodletting would be a thing. Kaladin might have gotten involved in this and exposed the king leading to his abdication. I highly doubt Kaladin would ever be ok with those practices. Very interesting.

Jasnah stayed longer in Kharbranth because she wanted to gain full access to the library and books. That's not coincidence, but that's not Taravangian's doing. Jasnah was doing research and she needed to find sources.

That was a test. While the collapse happened naturally, Taravangian thought it would be a great opportunity to observe Jasnah soulcasting, as he already had his doubts about her.

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

Rescuing Taravangian's granddaughter

So, Taravangian set this entire thing up. He wanted to see Jasnah's Soulcaster in action. He had the resources to get through that rock, if he'd wanted to—but he wanted to see Jasnah work, and he wanted to have an opportunity to interact with her. His eyes have been on her for a while.

The Way of Kings Annotations (Nov. 3, 2017)

 

That's not from soulcasting, but from days or weeks of frantic researching, reading and sleepless nights. Jasnah didn't sleep much, she kept searching for more information about Desolations and Voidbringers. It wasn't Taravangian's fault.

Coincidence. He would be unable to mess with Kaladin as that would be all before Taravangian's meeting with Nightwatcher, Diagram was also not interested in Davar family, Ghostbloods were. Timeline also wouldn't fit - much of Shallan's story happened before Taravangian went to Nightwatcher.

However Taravangian was interested in Jasnah, he was hoping that she would understand him and join the Diagram:

  Reveal hidden contents

Tim

Hey, I've been thinking about that section in WoK with Jasnah and the "thieves" she killed, and it feels like a setup to me - it's weird that the messages Taravangian sends to the guard are on Jasnah's radar, and Jasnah even says that the situation is odd enough to "suspect that there is more going on".

Was this a Taravangian plot?

Taravangian leaks the information about the "reprimands" he sent to his city watch about these dangerous criminals, and watches to see how Jasnah reacts to it, ideally catcher her using her powers? (Just like how he used that cave-in to test her Soulcasting).

Brandon Sanderson

Taravangian was under the hope that Jasnah would see the world the way he does--with a very strict (even dangerous) level of utilitarianism. He thought about recruiting her to his mission, but decided against it for various reasons.

General Reddit 2020 (Oct. 26, 2020)

 

I really appreciate you taking so much time to break down everything I wrote. I learned a LOT about the Roshar timeline posting this.

[alder24]

On 12/26/2023 at 1:08 PM, Oltux72 said:

This institution was set up by a highly intelligent man who could have taken precautions and was not as sentimental as Amaram. Kaladin would have ended up with a slit throat.

Sure, but it's like saying that Sadeas was one of the most powerful and intelligent Highprice in one of the most powerful nations on Roshar. He should have had no problems with killing a single slave that destroyed his assault tactic and yet... It's just a what if scenario.

 

1 hour ago, TheLazyOwl said:

I really appreciate you taking so much time to break down everything I wrote. I learned a LOT about the Roshar timeline posting this.

Glad to be of help. I enjoyed thinking and writing about this as well  

[Letryx13]

As has been pointed out by several others, there's no real chance Taravangian manipulated Lirin or Kaladin; the timeline just doesn't fit.  The only possible way Taravangian could have influenced them would have been to set the stage for Rashone to be sent to HearthStone.  But even the Diagram couldn't have predicted things accurately enough for that to work out.  Too much of that was a matter of chance.  Although I do think that Lirin's and Kaladin's connections to Kharbranth are not coincidental to the story.  But I suspsect that relates more to the contest of champions.  

And as far as Shallan is concerned, I'm not sure what influence Taravangian could have had on her, or would have even wanted to.  Her family has been connected to the Ghost Bloods for some time, and while it's now known that she bonded a spren when she was a young child, that information appears to have been completely contained.  Her father went to extreme lengths to conceal that, if he even understood it at all.  As I recall the flashbacks of WoR, the Ghost Bloods were trying to use Shallan's father to make a play for power in Jah Kaved.  But considering that Taravangian was planning on creating chaos to seize control of the country by assassinating the king and crown prince, it doesn't seem likely that he would have had anything to do with it.  It's possible he was aware of the Ghost Bloods' plot, but it's unlikely he participated in it.  And considering that the Soul Caster broke as a complete accident, it's difficult to see the Diagram predicting Shallan setting out to find Jasnah.  

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 12/27/2023 at 11:04 PM, alder24 said:

Sure, but it's like saying that Sadeas was one of the most powerful and intelligent Highprice in one of the most powerful nations on Roshar. He should have had no problems with killing a single slave that destroyed his assault tactic and yet... It's just a what if scenario.

He had a problem. Killing Kaladin strongly tells his army not to show initiative. He had to find a way to signal that initiative is fine for officers, but bad for bridgemen.

[alder24]

23 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

He had a problem. Killing Kaladin strongly tells his army not to show initiative.

Kaladin was a slave. A slave is meant to be obedient, not showing any initiative. There was no problem here.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Kaladin was a slave. A slave is meant to be obedient, not showing any initiative. There was no problem here.

I can assure you that people whose lives are in his hand won't be confident to depend on that distinction.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I can assure you that people whose lives are in his hand won't be confident to depend on that distinction.

Sadeas' soldiers didn't care about slaves, they were probably very angry at Kaladin&co because of their "initiative" they'd lost a battle pretty spectacularly.