On the nature of Investiture

[Rynon2112]

I've been looking around and I haven't seen anything that addresses this particular question so here I go.

So far we have seen that in Roshar there are 3 type of Light associated with the Shards.

We have also seen that Lifelight(LL) which is green and Stormlight(SL) which is white-blue create Towerlight(TL) when combined, which is blue-green. Even more, we know that when combined, ST and Voidlight(VL), which is purple, create Warlight which is a dark-blue.

Now here is the problem.

Brandon has been very clear about the colours associated with the Shards in Roshar. Honor is white-blue, nothing wrong so far. Cultivation is green, great. But Odium's colour is not purple.

First, in the books, every time we see Odium, he is surrounded by golden light. Brandon has also said that instances of red Investiture in Roshar are linked to Odium and he has described the color as a red-gold, we know that any form of corrupted Investiture is represented as having a red tinge to it.

From the top of my head there has been a single instance where we've seen golden-red Investiture being used at all and that is at the end of RoW.

Now, here's my idea and I'd like you people to discuss it. 

The mixtures of Light so far have followed normal colour theory and so VL was not originally Odium's Investiture. Blue and red make purple. Ba-Ado-Mishram gave VL to the Singers and I think it is simple corrupted SL and that is why Venli can use both ST and VL to power her abilities.

What do you people think? Maybe what I'm saying is very obvious, but after RoW and with KoWaT/WaT coming up I've been thinking about this. Do you think we'll see people using Odium's pure/corrupted Light in ST5? Will we see a real combination of Odiumlight and SL? 

I really just want to share theories with the community and see everyone's perspectives

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Rynon2112

[alder24]

41 minutes ago, Rynon2112 said:

Brandon has been very clear about the colours associated with the Shards in Roshar. Honor is white-blue, nothing wrong so far. Cultivation is green, great. But Odium's colour is not purple.

No purple you said, OB ch 57:

Quote

“You’ve seen me, have you? Curious.”
Odium smiled again.
Then everything went white. Dalinar found himself standing on a speck of nothingness that was the entire world, looking up at an eternal, all-embracing flame. It stretched in every direction, starting as red, moving to orange, then changing to blazing white.
Then somehow, the flames seemed to burn into a deep blackness, violet and angry.
This was something so terrible that it consumed light itself. It was hot. A radiance indescribable, intense heat and black fire, colored violet at the outside.
Burning.
Overwhelming.
Power.
It was the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield.
It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy.
It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory.
And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the bliss of every kiss, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt.
Even taking in the smallest fraction of it terrified Dalinar. It left him tiny and frail. He knew if he drank of that raw, concentrated, liquid black fire, he’d be nothing in a moment. The entire planet of Roshar would puff away, no more consequential than the curling smoke of a snuffed-out candle.

Voidlight isn't just purple, "Voidlight takes the form of dark, purple-on-black vapor, glowing violet" (source: Coppermind), which is just as "the core of Odium." 

51 minutes ago, Rynon2112 said:

First, in the books, every time we see Odium, he is surrounded by golden light. Brandon has also said that instances of red Investiture in Roshar are linked to Odium and he has described the color as a red-gold, we know that any form of corrupted Investiture is represented as having a red tinge to it.

What I think is happening, and this is my personal, non-canon opinion, is that color gold is associated with Passion, black-violet with pure Odium, red with corruption. We know Rayse was trying hard to change Odium into something more, to make him Passion. He wasn't fully successful at this, but he did manage to influence the Shard a little bit - that's where the gold came from.

Spoiler

yulerule

So, we have Shard names; Ruin, Preservation, Harmony, Cultivation, Honor, Ambition, Autonomy, Devotion, Dominion. Those are pretty much regular English words. And then we have Odium. That's a little more Latinate. It's not-- It doesn't fit the pattern.

Brandon Sanderson

So I don't really look as something as Latinate or Germanic, when I'm picking the names usually.

yulerule

But this one is more. Even in Devotion or Dominion, their more regular English. Why?

Brandon Sanderson

I just look for the thing that feels right. Remember, all these words are in translation. When you read the book, they were a word in the original language of the book, that then we have translated to English. And so, don't look to much about what's Greek, what's Latin, what's Germanic. I will mix those a lot. And that's just because I'm looking for the word that has right resonance in English, that I'm writing in. You might even find Latin and Greek mixes in some of my stuff. And that's not done to be like, "Oh, you should be paying [attention]." Usually, I'm just looking for a flavor.

yulerule

So it's the flavor-- Because I actually did have it - they're all translations, why not <Hatred instead of Odium?>

Brandon Sanderson

Because Odium is cooler. It just sounds cooler. There is no answer other than "I like the word better."

yulerule

Is there any connection with the thought that it's not Hatred? Because in Oathbringer, he says he's Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

He would claim that he's Passion and not Odium. But that is part of why I chose it. Hatred felt too on-the-nose, because there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion, and that's what he claims that he is.

yulerule

His own perception of himself, can perception, in the cosmere, can that influence?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it can influence.

yulerule

So the Shard's intent can--

Brandon Sanderson

Can be influenced by their perception and the holder's, yes.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves?

Brandon Sanderson

I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less "we went around and named them" more like "this is just what it is". And various Shards are resisting that, but the others are all like "No, this is what you represent". 

Billy Todd, Moderator

Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself?

Brandon Sanderson

Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. *laughter* There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. 

Billy Todd, Moderator

So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Part of him does.

Billy Todd, Moderator

Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

But yes, officially Odium's true color is gold, while red is corrupted investiture:

Spoiler

Questioner

So, we know in Mistborn there is this running... you can say, motif about Ruin being associated with the color black and Preservation with the color white, we see a lot of very subtle and a lot of very unsubtle...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yes.

Questioner

Is such a motif present in any other books? I think I see it in Stormlight.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, in Stormlight you can see it. So, Ruin is a red-gold... not Ruin, Odium. Odium is a red-gold. Honor is a blue-white and Cultivation is green, obviously. So, those motifs stay, when you... when you see a red or a gold, it's a reddish gold sort of thing, either of those colors, it's going to be Odium.

Questioner

Even when we something we might suspect to be outside influence in other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Not necessarily, because red can also mean corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere. So, I would call Odium's real color gold, because you're going to see red when Odium is corrupting other things, so...

Questioner

It's not necessarily on Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not necessarily Odium. [...] So red just kind of means corruption. I've talked about that before, so. Not necessarily, not definitive, yeah.

[...]
ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

1 hour ago, Rynon2112 said:

The mixtures of Light so far have followed normal colour theory and so VL was not originally Odium's Investiture. Blue and red make purple. Ba-Ado-Mishram gave VL to the Singers and I think it is simple corrupted SL and that is why Venli can use both ST and VL to power her abilities.

It's not red, it's not corrupted. But BAM supplying Singers with Voidlight was something new, that happened only during the False Desolation, not earlier as far as we know. Odium on the other hand was able to do that much earlier, during Desolations. OB ch 80:

Quote

"Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her."

Venli can use Voidlight because she has a Voidspren imprisoned in her gemheart. This isn't something that happened before. 

 

Voidlight is pure light. It isn't a combination of two lights, it isn't corrupted. This is proven by its spectrum measured by Navani, RoW ch 65:

Quote

Next, she used a diamond infused with Stormlight instead of a candle. It worked the same, splitting into components of light, but with a larger band of blue. Voidlight did the same, though the band of violet was enormous, and the other colors mere blips. That was strange, as her research indicated different colors of light should only make bands brighter or weaker, not increase their size.
The most interesting result happened when she tried the experiment on the Towerlight Raboniel had collected. It wasn’t Stormlight or Lifelight, but a combination of the two. When she tried the prism experiment with this light, two separate rainbows of colors—distinct from one another—split out of the prism

Voidlight is pure light of Odium. It's not corrupted, it's not a combination of two lights. It resonates with Odium's pure tone as well. RoW confirmed it. It's not golden, true, but black-violet still appears deep within Odium.

[AquaRegia he/him]

I have just a few observations.

1) There are 16 shards.  In order for each one to have a single distinct and characteristic color for its Investiture (and YatNP implies some may have two), Brandon will necessarily have to look outside our traditional ROYGBIV set of color names.  I like the "stygian violet" he's invented for Odium.

2)  I do not think it is a coincidence that Roshar has three moons - one green, one blue, and one violet.  We know these moons are not natural, and their orbits are not stable over astronomical times.  I doubt that WaT will shed any more light (see what I did there?) on the mystery of Roshar's moons, but I very much hope they will become important in the second SA series.

[Quantus he/him]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Axon said:

I have just a few observations.

1) There are 16 shards.  In order for each one to have a single distinct and characteristic color for its Investiture (and YatNP implies some may have two), Brandon will necessarily have to look outside our traditional ROYGBIV set of color names.  I like the "stygian violet" he's invented for Odium.

2)  I do not think it is a coincidence that Roshar has three moons - one green, one blue, and one violet.  We know these moons are not natural, and their orbits are not stable over astronomical times.  I doubt that WaT will shed any more light (see what I did there?) on the mystery of Roshar's moons, but I very much hope they will become important in the second SA series.

Fwiw, Stygian colors are a real thing, they are the non-"real" colors our eyes see in afterimages.  Not coincidentally, Stygian Violet is probably produced from staring at bright gold for too long if Stygian Blue comes from Yellow.

• Quote

  [From Wikipedia]

  Stygian colors: these are simultaneously dark and impossibly saturated. For example, to see "stygian blue": staring at bright yellow causes a dark blue afterimage, then on looking at black, the blue is seen as blue against the black, also as dark as the black. The color is not possible to achieve through normal vision, because the lack of incident light (in the black) prevents saturation of the blue/yellow chromatic signal (the blue appearance).

   

 

Quote

 

TheFoxQR

"Voidlight" (hasn't been named, I know) has been described as black with some violet to it. Is this because it's actually absorbing light-gold from all light hitting it?

Brandon Sanderson

I do call it Voidlight in the new book, so you can certainly call it that.

I'm more trying to describe the phenomenon of Stygian colors, which is how I imagine Voidlight. But your explanation probably has some plausible science to it as well.

General Reddit 2019 (Aug. 11, 2019)

 

 

[Rynon2112]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Voidlight is pure light. It isn't a combination of two lights, it isn't corrupted. This is proven by its spectrum measured by Navani, RoW ch 65:

I never said Voidlight was a combination of various lights. Or is the combination of 2 lights or Investitures the same as a corrupting one? That's not what I have understood until now. That would mean Navani was corrupting Stormlight when mixing it with Voidlight but there is no red in it. Same with Towerlight, no red. I think corrupted investiture would behave as a single light and would act as so when checked with the test Navani performed

[ScavellTane]

Im now wondering if "Passion" has something to do with Odiums interaction with Ambition.

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Rynon2112 said:

I never said Voidlight was a combination of various lights. Or is the combination of 2 lights or Investitures the same as a corrupting one? That's not what I have understood until now. That would mean Navani was corrupting Stormlight when mixing it with Voidlight but there is no red in it. Same with Towerlight, no red. I think corrupted investiture would behave as a single light and would act as so when checked with the test Navani performed

Corruption is mixing of Shards' powers which changed things:

Spoiler

Blightsong

How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren that people would feel are corrupted. But that's corruption where the mixing of different Shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, what they're meaning is the mixing of Shards' powers.

Blightsong

So is there a mixing of Shards' powers happening with Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

*smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it.

Blightsong

Ok, uhhh, so something similar is happening with Gavilar's sphere, right?

Brandon Sanderson

*contemplative silence* RAFO.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

I would say corrupted investiture isn't the same as mixing Investiture like Navani and Raboniel did. They did it by aligning tones of both investitures, which brought them together in harmony. Corruption is more like what happened with Unmaking the Sibling - forcefully pushing foreign investiture until it forces changes. But this is not something we have a clear and definite answer.

[Duxredux he/him]

One option. I haven't been keeping track of the colors, but it seems like the gold associated with Odium generally is in visions where Odium is intentionally making an appearance. What if the color is a facade designed to promote respect? Presumably Rayse is lying at some level when he chooses to appear as a venerable and elderly man or Singer depending on his audience, so why not the color as well?

Mistborn spoiler:

Spoiler

For example, it seems less tricky to present a false color than for Ruin to mimic Preservation's Mist Spirit Allomantic pulse signature fooling Vin's Seeking. Same with Ruin speaking in the Well of Ascension.

In essence, Voidlight is the true Investiture color, gold is the Passion propaganda color. The main issue with this is that this requires that WoB on how Odium's true color is gold without explaining Voidlight to be a bit misleading.