How to defend against shard plate, shard blades, wind runners, ect.

[Voidus]

It's my understanding that Szeth is Truthless of his own free will, bound only by his honor and not by any magic. Unless the existence of a KR happens to be the requirement to free Szeth from that bond, I don't see Kaladin simply being a KR "freeing" Szeth from being Truthless.

That's exactly what I'm hoping for, otherwise I can't see how they're both going to be alive for the rest of the series, we know that Szeth gets his own book at some point and I think Szeth will have to arrive and attempt to kill Dalinar some time in the next book and we also know that Dalinar gets his own book so he obviously survives, this means that either Szeths orders are changed or he no longer follows them, there is also something obviously goingg on with him having KR powers so I think that somehow the appearance of Kaladin will free him from being Truthless somehow.

[Windrunner he/him]

Could Szeth be stopped or captured? We know that Dalinar will be defended by Adolin, one of the best duelists in the world who also has Shardplate, Kaladin who has the same power set as Szeth and may be potentially stronger then him, as well as Kaladin's crack bridge team guard. If Kaladin gets the Basic Lashing figured out by the time Szeth attacks I think they have a real chance of winning. Kaladin at least also understands how Szeth's powers work, and knows to try to deprive him of Stormlight, something none of Szeth's other targets knew about. If they can stall long enough for Szeth to run out of Stormlight they may have a chance of capturing him.

Also, is it possible that if Szeth feels that he will be throwing his life away by attacking, that he will feel honor-bound not to? I guess it really depends. We know he hasn't been able to be foolhardy in the past, but I'm not sure that he would be able to disobey his primary orders in favor of his safety.

Whatever happens, I think we can expect it to occur near the beginning, as we know that Szeth and Shallan and Jasnah are all departing for the Shattered Plains at the same time, and at Jasnah and Shallan will be at or near their destination at the opening of Stormlight 2.

Edit:

I just realized Reader made the same point about Adolin as I did, and Kurkistan is right, it depends if Adolin is ready to go or not. Kaladin could potentially buy Adolin some time to get his Plate on. Good news is it isn't difficult for Adolin to summon his Blade even if it is unwieldy.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Windrunner

[Voidus]

Problem is that you could only capture him if he ran out of stormlight, if it just came to a duel with him vs. Adolin the only way it could end is with one of them dead, Shadrblade do nothing to living flesh other than kill someone or paralyze a limb forever, so unless they want to make him a paraplegic he does have to die.

That is a good point about if there was a Windrunner there whether he would be able to attack since he could potentially die. Even a direct order cannot make him directly threaten his life, so possibly he just wouldn't attack.

So I'll add that to my list of hopeful outcomes, he doesn't attack at all or he is released from being Truthless are I think the most likely outcomes.

[Aiken Frost he/him]

Problem is that you could only capture him if he ran out of stormlight, if it just came to a duel with him vs. Adolin the only way it could end is with one of them dead, Shadrblade do nothing to living flesh other than kill someone or paralyze a limb forever, so unless they want to make him a paraplegic he does have to die.

That is a good point about if there was a Windrunner there whether he would be able to attack since he could potentially die. Even a direct order cannot make him directly threaten his life, so possibly he just wouldn't attack.

So I'll add that to my list of hopeful outcomes, he doesn't attack at all or he is released from being Truthless are I think the most likely outcomes.

They could just crush a few limbs with shardplate-powered punches and kicks... Nothing a surgebinder couldn't regenerate.

[Voidus]

They could just crush a few limbs with shardplate-powered punches and kicks... Nothing a surgebinder couldn't regenerate.

But to regenerate he'd have to be given stormlight again which kinda starts the problem all over again, although I suppose you could make some kind of Windrunner proof cell, walls that were thicker than a shardblade so he couldn't just cut through them and a door of the same (although then I'm not sure how you'd open it... door made of shardplate? so that he couldn't lash it out.

[hoser he/him]

I've been looking forward to seeing how Brandon will handle Szeth attempting (and presumably failing) to assassinate Dalinar as well. Szeth has orders to do it "quickly" and "brutally". The "brutally", I assume to mean publicly and with as much collateral damage as possible. The public aspect allows one to assemble whatever tag team is required to fight him.

Kaladin is now the head of Dalinar's bodyguards. He has quite a few assets, if he can put them together.

Abilities:

1. He uses stormlight MUCH more effectively than Szeth*
   
2. He uses his abilities unconsciously and he will have been training and learning more about them.
   
3. Invisible spy (Syl)
   
4. He can suck up the stormlight that Szeth needs to keep going
   

Intelligence

1. He knows how infusing works and the meaning of a glowing assassin
   
2. He has seen Szeth in action (the highstorm dream)
   
3. With all the assassinations that Szeth has performed lately, Kaladin should be anticipating an attack
   
4. With his new position, he should be briefed on the other Shin "Assassin in White" exploits
   

Szeth's assets are well known, but he has weaknesses also:

1. He cannot take his own life or give up his blade: what if he has to choose between them?
   
2. He voluntarily committed the crime that brought on this punishment to damage the Voidbringers somehow. He would presumably treat stopping the Voidbringers as a higher calling again.
   
3. He hates what he is doing and is somewhat insane.
   
4. He accepts his punishment to avoid annihilation. What if he thought he would be annihilated anyway, or could avoid it otherwise?
   
5. I used to think that one couldn't imprison a Shardblade holder, but as we've seen with Elhokar, if you can control their hands the blade becomes useless.
   

If Kaladin can limit the available stormlight, Adolin might be able to hold off Szeth long enough to run him empty. Kaladin might have learned some new tricks that might impede Szeth, who won't be expecting to meet a real budding Windrunner. Without stormlight, Szeth would be effectively stranded, Adolin might be more than a match for Szeth. Given a choice of dying or giving up the Blade, Szeth would be forced to violate the terms of his punishment and might crack.

If Taln the Herald is present, I can't even imagine the unleashed awesomeness that he would bring without even considering what effect a Herald would have on poor Szeth's psyche.

Jasnah might also have some more surprises up her safehand.

I can't wait to see the epic battle that Brandon will provide us.

* Szeth vs Kaladin using stormlight

Szeth's ability to hold stormlight is described on in the prologue:

Stormlight could be held for only a short time, a few minutes at most.

Kaladin's ability, even before his second oath power-up, is much greater as described in chapter 59:

Kaladin relaxed. He was still steaming light, and-save for the call to Lopen-he'd been holding his breath for for a good quarter hour. ... he started to breathe normally. The Light didn't leave him entirely, although it escaped faster.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

yeah you can imprison somebody with a shardblade you just need to immobilize their hands, they can't use the Blade if they can't move their hands at all.

Alternatively you could dangle them from a rope attached to a very high ceiling, if they cut the rope they'll go splat, it's a little harder with Szeth because of his lashings but you could do it if you kept him from getting any Stormlight.

[Aradel he/him]

If you can deny them stormlight, they're toast in any number of ways.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Goradel's Nephew

[Voidus]

but denying them stormlight is difficult as it is quite common and portable so they will have their own, you would almost certainly have to capture him before you could do it, letting his residual stormlight drain from their body while not providing any new sources. So you'd still have to catch him first, either that or somehow drag the fight out for a good hour if Kaladins stormlight retention is anything to go by, it does seem as though Szeth can't hold it as well but still considering most of his fights last only seconds you'd still have to have some very good delaying tactics, also if he does think he is about to run out he could always just escape to find more and come back another day.

[master]

Personally I think kaladin on his own would have a decent chance of stopping szeth. szeth doesnt have plate, they both have windrunner abilities and they are both unaturally skilled at fighting. The only advantage szeth has is his blade. wuch wiukd only work if it cut kaladin. though I guess his greater experience might give him a greater advantage. note that I'm not saying that kaladin will beath szeth on his own, just that he has a chance. the probability of szeth beating is probably higher, but he still has a chance.

[Voidus]

Actually the blade could also chop through Kaladins spear like it was butter. Which would leave him without much of a weapon, I don't think Kaladin would beat him one-on-one

[master]

Actually the blade could also chop through Kaladins spear like it was butter. Which would leave him without much of a weapon, I don't think Kaladin would beat him one-on-one

I don't see why he has to use the spear to parry or block attacks. He could use lashings to fly above szeth and attack him from above. .

That said i do agree that szeth has a bigger chance of winning. But that doesn mean kal doesnt have a chance.

Edited March 31, 2012 by master

[Voidus]

Kaladin doesn't even know how to lash yet, also considering Szeth has the exact same ability and is more practised with it, he would probably outmanouever him as well. Kal is the only person who stands any chance, but it's still not good odds I think.

[Aeshdan he/him]

I hadn't considered the presence of other actors in any Szeth/Kaladin fight. Adolin might be able to even the odds, I admit, but that depends heavily on him being both on scene and "suited up" for any fight. The only reason Szeth's other target had Shardbearer guards on hand was because he was expecting Szeth, which Dalinar is not as of now.

Well, Gavilar was able to get fully prepped easily enough in the Prologue.

[Odium's_Shard]

I have come up with something that I, stupidly, have never considered, and although I'm sure it has already been thought of among the brilliants minds gathered here on this forum, I shall propose it.

What is to stop Kaladin from stealing the Light in Szeth's gems as soon as they meet. Szeth takes Light from gems. What makes gems in a Windrunner's possession different? Or aren't they? If so, it is just the first person who draws in all Stormlight around them first, presuming they can't steal it from the body itself (which has a Cognitive shield, so to speak). Perhaps the reason a gem yields Stormlight is because it can't defend itself against the invasive Cognitive presence of the Windrunner, and so its Light is 'stolen'.

[Kurkistan he/him]

I have come up with something that I, stupidly, have never considered, and although I'm sure it has already been thought of among the brilliants minds gathered here on this forum, I shall propose it.

What is to stop Kaladin from stealing the Light in Szeth's gems as soon as they meet. Szeth takes Light from gems. What makes gems in a Windrunner's possession different? Or aren't they? If so, it is just the first person who draws in all Stormlight around them first, presuming they can't steal it from the body itself (which has a Cognitive shield, so to speak). Perhaps the reason a gem yields Stormlight is because it can't defend itself against the invasive Cognitive presence of the Windrunner, and so its Light is 'stolen'.

I just laughed out loud at the thought of Szeth strolling into Dalinar's keep and immediately getting all of his stormlight stolen by Kaladin: instant KO.

I agree that a Cognitive/Spiritual shield probably keeps surgebinders from stealing each other's stormlight once it's in their bodies.

Excellent idea overall. That's the kind of thinking we need to combat the Final Desolation!

Edited March 31, 2012 by Kurkistan

[master]

Kaladin doesn't even know how to lash yet, also considering Szeth has the exact same ability and is more practised with it, he would probably outmanouever him as well. Kal is the only person who stands any chance, but it's still not good odds I think.

completely agree.

[hoser he/him]

... What makes gems in a Windrunner's possession different? Or aren't they? If so, it is just the first person who draws in all Stormlight around them first, presuming they can't steal it from the body itself (which has a Cognitive shield, so to speak). Perhaps the reason a gem yields Stormlight is because it can't defend itself against the invasive Cognitive presence of the Windrunner, and so its Light is 'stolen'.

Yes! Great questions/thoughts. It seems to me that since Kaladin draws from the spheres of other bridgemen and the gems of the Parshendi, either Kaladin or Szeth could draw upon the other's non-infused Stormlight stores (spheres carried around, for example), except as incorporated into Shardplate. I agree that they shouldn't be able to draw on each other's infused stormlight.

Following on, I've been wondering about Kaladin and Szeth lashing each other. If either of them is not infusing, it seems to me that they should be as vulnerable to being lashed as anybody else. When infused, would lashing work on them or are they invested and invulnerable to other's lashings?

What do people think?

[Kurkistan he/him]

Yes! Great questions/thoughts. It seems to me that since Kaladin draws from the spheres of other bridgemen and the gems of the Parshendi, either Kaladin or Szeth could draw upon the other's non-infused Stormlight stores (spheres carried around, for example), except as incorporated into Shardplate. I agree that they shouldn't be able to draw on each other's infused stormlight.

Following on, I've been wondering about Kaladin and Szeth lashing each other. If either of them is not infusing, it seems to me that they should be as vulnerable to being lashed as anybody else. When infused, would lashing work on them or are they invested and invulnerable to other's lashings?

What do people think?

I think they're probably invested when they are holding stormlight. On the point of infusion, I do wonder whether or not they would be able to recover the stormlight from either their own or each other's Lashings. The book describes both gems and Lashed objects as being "infused" with stormlight.

[Voidus]

I think in the case of stealing the others stormlight the advantage has to go to Szeth as he has the advantage of surprise, Kaladin might be able to get some from the surrounding still as Szeth would probably fight for a bit to get to them but yeah I don't think it's just going to be Szeth walks in and then announces he's going to kill Dalinar, and Kaladin steals all the stormlight while Szeth is busy monologuing

As for whether or not they can lash each other, I'm not sure but I would suspect the answer is yes. We know that they can at least do it to themselves, I think that Shardplate is particular in that it is difficult to invest in it again. We know that hemalurgic spikes could still be pushed/pulled so I think that they could probably lash eachother.

[Kurkistan he/him]

I think in the case of stealing the others stormlight the advantage has to go to Szeth as he has the advantage of surprise, Kaladin might be able to get some from the surrounding still as Szeth would probably fight for a bit to get to them but yeah I don't think it's just going to be Szeth walks in and then announces he's going to kill Dalinar, and Kaladin steals all the stormlight while Szeth is busy monologuing

As for whether or not they can lash each other, I'm not sure but I would suspect the answer is yes. We know that they can at least do it to themselves, I think that Shardplate is particular in that it is difficult to invest in it again. We know that hemalurgic spikes could still be pushed/pulled so I think that they could probably lash eachother.

Didn't Kaladin see Szeth ripping people to shreds during his vision in the Highstorm? Also, recall that Kaladin will probably get details of what exactly Szeth did during his assassination of the Alethi King, and deduce that he is a psuedo-Windrunner. Add those together with a detailed description of that one Shin who walks around in white assassinating people, and Kaladin might have a chance of seeing, recognizing, and reacting to Szeth in time.

I hadn't considered their ability to Lash themselves... Still, I think that there could be a fundamental difference between using magic on oneself and using it on another.

*Mistborn spoilers*

Hemalurgic spikes can only be Pushed/Pulled using massive expenditures of Allomancy, Duraluminum or TLR levels required. I believe that this is the case with all invested objects--with people included in that category at times, as seen in how TLR can Push on the metal in Vin's body.

Recall that, though shardblades can theoretically be Pushed/Pulled, they are invested objects and thus its very hard to do so. (Question 10)

Edited April 1, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Voidus]

Good point on the spikes, I think the problem is that they are so rarely seen outside of a body that we can't tell if it's the spikes being invested or that they are piercing the body that makes them difficult. Consider allomancy again as an example then, a misting who is burning a metal should be invested to the same extent as a Surgebinder, particularly if it is an internal metal, and yet Nicrosil can affect them, so it is definitely possible that they could affect each other.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

as far as I recall Kaladin didn't actually see Szeth in action, he just saw him standing over a couple of dead bodies.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Good point on the spikes, I think the problem is that they are so rarely seen outside of a body that we can't tell if it's the spikes being invested or that they are piercing the body that makes them difficult. Consider allomancy again as an example then, a misting who is burning a metal should be invested to the same extent as a Surgebinder, particularly if it is an internal metal, and yet Nicrosil can affect them, so it is definitely possible that they could affect each other.

You're right, we do lack clarity over whether it is the spike itself or it being embedded that hinders Allomancy. We do get indications that Hemalurgy steals investiture, though, so I tend to see the spikes themselves as invested.

I'm beginning to agree with you. I think we can see surgebinders as infused with stormlight rather than invested in any significant way.

*Warbreaker spoilers*

I doubt that an Allomancer would be able to Pull/Push on Nightblood, for instance, but an Allomancer should be able to Push/Pull on a merely awakened metal object, the Breath of which can still be retrieved. Perhaps an object is only invested if the magic is an essential part of the object in question, as opposed to a temporary characteristic.

I do wonder whether a Returned could be Soothed/Rioted--I tend to think not, due the essential nature of their Divine Breath.

as far as I recall Kaladin didn't actually see Szeth in action, he just saw him standing over a couple of dead bodies.

Ah, my mistake. Still, standing over a pile of dead bodies isn't exactly a common event in most people's lives.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Odium's_Shard]

Also, as an appendix, what is to stop Szeth from stealing Light from the gems located in Shardplate, thus rendering it useless before his Shardblade? What makes Shardplate different/special, because as we've heard from Dalinar's descriptions, there certainly is something inexplainable about some of its powers.