How many Kholin Radiants is too many?

[Fifth]

The Kholin family already has three confirmed  radiants (Jasnah, Dalinar, Renarin) , with a reasonable case to me made for up to four more all carrying the same last name in Elhokar, Adolin, Navani & Shallan if the marriage goes through. That's a Whopping total of Seven should they all swear the oaths.

 

Now I do know that some of these are a stretch, but quite solid cases can be made for all. The question is does anyone think this is a problem?

 

Something to keep in mind also is that it appears that some orders of  spren (eg: Wyndle) are able to choose their "human" based on attributes other then personality/traits as was shown with Lift so a Spren choosing someone like Elhokar is perfectly possible should they decide a person in a position of power is needed (Presumably guiding their selected human towards a Radiant's path).

 

Should you have solid arguments as to why any of these could NOT be a Radiant i'm interested to hear it.

 

[Dhavaer]

If Navani turns out to be a Willshaper, I would give a great deal to see Jasnah's face when she finds out that her mother can now follow her even into Shadesmar.

[Left he/him]

I would say that 3 is the correct number. I'm opposed to Adolin being a Radiant, I would rather him and Navani continue learning about Fabriels and finding super awesome ways of using them. Fabriel tank or fighter plane anyone?

[Quiver he/him]

Part of the problem, for me, is that we only have one representative of each Radiant. If there were, say, a half-dozen Dustbringers and Adolin was just one of the crowd, I wouldn't mind so much... but the way the series seems to be shaping at the moment is one Radient Main Character per Order, and if that's the case, I would really rather hope that we see a bit more diversity. More-or-less everyone from the same family becoming Radients strikes me as being a bit too similar to the magic bloodline-deal most fantasy stories do with regards kingsmanship, not to mention looking uncomfortably like nepotism.

Granted, that could be an interesting plot line, if the other nobles start to realise how "oddly convenient" it is that it's only the Kholin family who get these super powers, but still...

 

I'd also kind of hope that not every hero in this series is going to become a Radient, simply because I like the idea of someone who is brave and heroic enough to face the Voidbringers without being able to fly, or cause mind explosions, or whatever... basically, I want someone to show that you don't have to be a Radient to be awesome, and you don't have to have super powers to be a hero.

 

Which is also why I have my personal theory that Elhokar should be Honor's Champion as part of his character arc, but that's a different topic entirely.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

See this topic for similar discussions. 

 

I personally have no problem with the Kholin's becoming Radiants en masse or through marriage. 

 

I will say that I don't think Navani or Elhokar will end up becoming one. 

 

I'm tempted to say, "given an epic of this scope and scale, there will inevitably be betrayal from someone within the closest circle that will lead to all sorts of havoc, which in this case would be the Kholin family", but given that Brandon loves to turn fantasy tropes on their head, he may have considered that a trope which he wants to confound in the Stormlight Archive. That, though there may be incompetence's, on a whole the Kholin family is loyal, honorable, and will remain true to one another. IF that is the case, I think Navani will stay with fabrials and Elhokar will be learning to king better, though there are cases to be made for both of them. 

 

IF Brandon decides that is not a trope that he wants to play with, then I would say look out for Elhokar turning to the "dark side" for quick and easy power (a.k.a. Odium & Voidbinding) as he sees all those around him who were already "better" at what they do, become even greater through their use of Stormlight, and further outshine him. If this is the case, then we'll have a very dark period of the Stormlight Archive where Elhokar does take the power of the kingship in his hands, in a very Alethi manner, and turns the Alethi kingdom against the fledgling Knights Radiant, giving them yet another thing against which they must fight. 

Edited September 10, 2014 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Slater he/him]

Depends I guess, honestly Adolin is looking pretty possible as well as maybe Elhokar. Bu I really doubt Navani and even if Shallan marries in I wouldnt quite count her as a Kholin. That said five Kholin Radiants is quite alot but honesly I'll wait and see.

 

I think at least part of it depends on application of importance. We know for sure that Renarin and Jasnah are gonna be POV books in the back half so they will probably survive past the time skip, and while Jasnah will probably be important throughout maybe Renarin wont really step into the true center stage till after one of the others, (Dalinar or Adolin most likely) Is gone. If that happened then I think it'll work fine.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Slater130

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I say bring em all on board IF..... big IF..... there are a lot more Radiants popping up soon. If there are dozens of Radiants in each Order within the next few books, I have no problem with the whole family being Radiants. After all, they are one of the most significant groups even disregarding their powers. You might be able to make a good case for them having more than average attention from spren, whether it be because of the significance put on them by others somehow or just because they are situationally obligated by their rank to be talented or strong in certain areas. 

If none of that is true though, yeah, like 4 is good. Hahahaha.

[TheBrian]

Most real world societies are ruled by Oligarchies, because (in addition to nepotism) people with the most resources are able to give their children the best education and have social connections to help them out early in their careers.

 

Keeping that in mind, try thinking things through from the point of view of a spren looking for a human to bond with.  Obviously, you need someone compatible with the attribute of honor you represent.  But beyond that, what makes a good fit?  Someone trained in war, maybe, considering the desolation is coming?  Someone with connections to existing Knights so that everyone can work together as a team instead of as individuals scattered across the continent?  Someone already in a position of leadership, so that no time needs to be wasted building an army?

 

The Kholin family is a gold mine for spren looking to make Knights.  They are respected leaders trained in war and actually adhere to a code of conduct (unlike the other nobles).  The spren aren't choosing at random, so it isn't realistic for us to expect new Knights to be random.

[king of nowhere]

 More-or-less everyone from the same family becoming Radients strikes me as being a bit too similar to the magic bloodline-deal most fantasy stories do with regards kingsmanship, not to mention looking uncomfortably like nepotism.

Well, unless one order of radiants bonded democracyspren, that's not gonna stop them

 

Anyway, I'd say it depends on several factors. one is, are the spren thinking like thebrain suggested? in which case, them focusing on the kholin family would make perfect sense. how manny radiants are there? if there are dozens of radiants for every order it is no so singular anymore that there are half a dozen in the same family. How well can sanderson justify it? that is the more important question.

 

By the way, I know full well the cases for adolin and elokar possibly being on their way to becoming radiants, but I never heard anything about navani. Is there something solid there?

[Kal973]

Dalinar, Jasnah and Renarin are radiants.

Maybe Adolin will become one (I hope he will revive his shardblade to do so).

 

See this topic for similar discussions. 

 

IF Brandon decides that is not a trope that he wants to play with, then I would say look out for Elhokar turning to the "dark side" for quick and easy power (a.k.a. Odium & Voidbinding) as he sees all those around him who were already "better" at what they do, become even greater through their use of Stormlight, and further outshine him. If this is the case, then we'll have a very dark period of the Stormlight Archive where Elhokar does take the power of the kingship in his hands, in a very Alethi manner, and turns the Alethi kingdom against the fledgling Knights Radiant, giving them yet another thing against which they must fight. 

I agree with this theory.

I don't think that Navani will become a KR but who knows ?

 

The Kholin family is a gold mine for spren looking to make Knights.  They are respected leaders trained in war and actually adhere to a code of conduct (unlike the other nobles).  The spren aren't choosing at random, so it isn't realistic for us to expect new Knights to be random.

I agree that the spren have high advantages in taking their bonds Inside the Kholin family given their position.

It will be easier for the spren  to have the KR take the lead of Alethkar and fight the Voidbringers efficiently, if they bond with the few humans who already are in charge in the Alethi society first.

And the throne belongs to the Kholin... 

[rbnguevara]

It is highly unlikely that Navani will become a radiant.  It should be expected at this point that of the remaining blood kholins all have strong potential to become a KR of one order or another(this has many topics of its own with a substantial amount of evidence to back it up). I would expect Adolin to become a KR and probably die off but not before marrying Shallan. Elhokar is a fruit case in my opinion and also could become a KR and probably die as well. We already know there were many of the bridge 4 soldiers in WOR that started to glow during the battle at the SP so it would seem to me that in the next few books we will see a dramatic increase in the number of KR. With the order of the KR official re-established I bet the stormfather resends his ban on Honor Spren from coming to the physical realm. I will eventually post in detail why I feel this way but not until we get closer to Stones Un-Hallowed being released.

[Guest]

Personally, I do not count Navani or Shallan as Kohlins. They have no Kohlin blood and their ties are through marriage only. That being said, I do not think Navani will become a Radiant. There is no case to be made here and I do not feel it. I think Navani will most likely remain a secondary character, a side-kick to help others grow.

 

I think the case for Adolin becoming a Radiant is the strongest. The clues are lining themselves quite well: he has the attributes, he has the talent, he has lost the Thrill, he bonded a Rhysadium, he talks to his blade as if it were a living thing and there is just this quality about him, this strong desire to do what is right even if consequences are disastrous which mirrors quite well Kal's desire to protect people at all cost. I do think he is Radiant material, but I get the feeling his path will be rather bumpy. I do not see him going bad or anything, just very angsty. There is also the fact we are still missing a representative of the Dustbringer order. We have no flashback character planned for that order, we have nothing. We need something and who would make a better Dustbringer than Adolin? We need someone who is major enough to bring light into the order. I know these are more factual arguments, but I doubt Brandon would just write of an entire order from his book and he did claim we have met all the principal members of each order.

 

I think the case for Elhokar is weaker. He does not have the personality, he does not have any visible talent and he just does not exhibit any of the strong traits we have seen driving the others. The only, only argument for Elhokar are the sprens he claims he is seeing. Sprens. Numerous. Sprens do not come in number to bond human, they come in group of one. The fact he is seeing multiple is abnormal and very unlike the Radiants we have seen. They are akin to cryptics, but Pattern clearly stated only one of his kind came to bond a human, so another cryptic is doubtful at this point in time. I am thinking Elhokar will be the Kohlin that goes bad. He'll be tempted to take the easy way out, to go to the end without stepping foot onto the journey. It would fit his character as he does come out as the guy who never makes any effort. I think he may make everyone believe he is a Radiant, when in fact he is something else.

 

For me, Elhokar would be one too many. Four is enough. Adolin just needs to be a Radiant. He screams Radiant. Just my two cents anyway.

[Fifth]

 

 

By the way, I know full well the cases for adolin and elokar possibly being on their way to becoming radiants, but I never heard anything about navani. Is there something solid there?

 

No there is nothing SOLID but I do think there is "potential" for her to become a Edgedancer (loving/Healing), I mean lets face it Lifts not going to be leading the order.... she is however the least likely IMO to become a Radiant from those I listed.

[Arondell]

I did think it was interesting how the opening to the Navani point of view put a heavy emphasis on describing how much Navani valued order.

[Moogle]

I did think it was interesting how the opening to the Navani point of view put a heavy emphasis on describing how much Navani valued order.

 

I'm not sure this implies she'll be a Skybreaker, though. She has a few things going for her - she likes order, she's carefully kept things legal (stayed faithful to Gavilar, told Dalinar there's no law against their union and that she's checked), but this isn't quite the impression of the order I got from Nalan, Szeth, and the epigraphs. I can't quite imagine Navani with a sword to the throat of a bandit, demanding he surrender himself to justice. I can't imagine her swearing to put the law above all else, though the Words express a thought, so for her it could be putting order above all else, and I could see her doing that.

 

I guess it depends on how much variation there is in the orders. Could there be a Windrunner scientist, seeking to protect everyone from a deadly disease and directing research efforts? Again, this does not quite fit my mental model of the order, but we have Jasnah saying 3/4 of the Knights Radiant were not fighters. If such Windrunners can exist, perhaps a Skybreaker organizer-bureaucrat who organizes camps and makes sure everyone is doing their job and all the correct rules are followed/paperwork is filled out could work. But having the Surge of Division seems to imply they're about punishing wrongdoers, and are more oriented towards that...

 

I can't argue with the justice glyph she drew for Sadeas. That's pretty strong foreshadowing for Navani being a Skybreaker.

 

(Originally I wrote this post trying to argue Navani was completely unlikely to be a Skybreaker. I have since managed to convince myself that the chances are pretty darn high - all these arguments I tried to put against her I realized were bad, and when I removed them all I was left with was a post arguing mostly for her being a Skybreaker. Oops.)

Edited September 11, 2014 by Moogle

[Guest]

No there is nothing SOLID but I do think there is "potential" for her to become a Edgedancer (loving/Healing), I mean lets face it Lifts not going to be leading the order.... she is however the least likely IMO to become a Radiant from those I listed.

 

Edgedancer are deadly warriors... I somehow cannot picture Navani as such.

 

 

I'm not sure this implies she'll be a Skybreaker, though. She has a few things going for her - she likes order, she's carefully kept things legal (stayed faithful to Gavilar, told Dalinar there's no law against their union and that she's checked), but this isn't quite the impression of the order I got from Nalan, Szeth, and the epigraphs. I can't quite imagine Navani with a sword to the throat of a bandit, demanding he surrender himself to justice. I can't imagine her swearing to put the law above all else, though the Words express a thought, so for her it could be putting order above all else, and I could see her doing that.

 

I agree. I feel just the same. My impressions have always been that the order to the right side of the chart were more battle oriented then the left side. My views of the Skybreakers fit yours quite well, so in this you are not alone.

 

 

I guess it depends on how much variation there is in the orders. Could there be a Windrunner scientist, seeking to protect everyone from a deadly disease and directing research efforts? Again, this does not quite fit my mental model of the order, but we have Jasnah saying 3/4 of the Knights Radiant were not fighters. If such Windrunners can exist, perhaps a Skybreaker organizer-bureaucrat who organizes camps and makes sure everyone is doing their job and all the correct rules are followed/paperwork is filled out could work. But having the Surge of Division seems to imply they're about punishing wrongdoers, and are more oriented towards that...

 

Did Jasnah really say 3/4? It is seems quite high and I wouldn't put too much faith in Jasnah's finding in the matter. She is working with incomplete information and she may biased towards falsely increasing the percentage of scholar oriented Radiants. I guess it could be there are scholar within the fighting order, just like there may be fighters in the scholar ones, however, I do not really picture Navani into any. Same as with Elhokar, Navani just does not exhibit any of the strong traits all Radiants have shown so far. She is a great person, but it does not mean she will be a Radiant.

[Moogle]

My impressions have always been that the order to the right side of the chart were more battle oriented then the left side.

 

Maybe? The Edgedancers could go either way, in my opinion. Regrowth, I think, lends them more to a non-combat role, but the epigraphs say they were renowned for their deadliness at the same time they claim they were eloquent. I'd almost guess the divide is more of a diagonal. Stonewards-Edgedancers are more combat-oriented, Truthwatchers - Willshapers being less combat oriented.

 

Did Jasnah really say 3/4? It is seems quite high and I wouldn't put too much faith in Jasnah's finding in the matter. She is working with incomplete information and she may biased towards falsely increasing the percentage of scholar oriented Radiants. I guess it could be there are scholar within the fighting order, just like there may be fighters in the scholar ones, however, I do not really picture Navani into any. Same as with Elhokar, Navani just does not exhibit any of the strong traits all Radiants have shown so far. She is a great person, but it does not mean she will be a Radiant.

 

Here's Jasnah:

Shallan looked up from poking at the pattern spren. “There were women among the Knights Radiant?”

“A statistically appropriate number,” Jasnah said. “But don’t fear that you will soon find yourself swinging a sword, child. The archetype of Radiants on the battlefield is an exaggeration. From what I’ve read— though records are, unfortunately, untrustworthy— for every Radiant dedicated to battle, there were another three who spent their time on diplomacy, scholarship, or other ways to aid society.”

 

She herself admits the untrustworthiness, though I myself find the number makes sense for a number of reasons:

• The combat orders are more likely to have their members die in battle, leaving less relative to the other types of people in the orders. (Stonewards in particular would be vulnerable to this, I think. When your Ideals include "I will stand", you sort of have to be in ridiculously dangerous situations close to death when all else have ran or failed. High death rate.)
• The combat orders, or at least the Windrunners, are more picky (honorspren in particular are discerning, leading to there being less Windrunners relative to the other orders, I'd imagine).
• Most humans prefer to avoid physical confrontation, and for the most part the world seems to have been peaceful pre-Recreance (because humanity was united vs. Odium). Less people would be in situations where their attributes would shine forth (unless Windrunners like a lead scientist curing a disease can exist).

[Chrono she/her]

As I've mentioned in another article, you need support teams. Anyone who's played any sort of RPG that involves a party system or cooperative play knows this very well. For every DPS player, you need a Tank and a Support (generally a buffer and a healer, depending on the game). Sometimes the DPS is the Tank, but that's beside the point. In my little model that I've just created (DPS (Damage dealer) Tank (Damage absorber/glorified meatshield) Healer, and Buffer), I have one active fighter (the DPS) and three passive fighters. This fits Jasnah's model of one warrior, three noncombatants. In this situation, I would say that the Windrunner/Skybreaker/Dustbringer is my DPS, the Stoneward is my Tank, my Edgedancer/Truthwatcher is my healer, and my Buffer is any of the rest (doing little stuff like Soulcasting and other such things). 

 

However, that is all in a combat zone. So, what if they aren't in combat? The handy thing is that the Orders have Surges that can be used for mundane tasks and double for battlefield capabilities. Since three out of ten orders are almost solely combat oriented (Windrunners, Skybreakers, and Dustbringers), there's your 1/4. The rest have more support/tanking abilities. I would imagine that these would be the orders that are diplomats, ambassadors, policing forces (in the case of Skybreakers) and other such duties that Jasnah describes. 

 

Going back to the OP Question though, I'd say that 4 is the max amount of Kholin Radiants I want. You need some contrast, and I know of at least one that doesn't really fit the mold for a Radiant (I'm looking at you, Elhokar). 

[Guest]

As I've mentioned in another article, you need support teams. Anyone who's played any sort of RPG that involves a party system or cooperative play knows this very well. For every DPS player, you need a Tank and a Support (generally a buffer and a healer, depending on the game). Sometimes the DPS is the Tank, but that's beside the point. In my little model that I've just created (DPS (Damage dealer) Tank (Damage absorber/glorified meatshield) Healer, and Buffer), I have one active fighter (the DPS) and three passive fighters. This fits Jasnah's model of one warrior, three noncombatants. In this situation, I would say that the Windrunner/Skybreaker/Dustbringer is my DPS, the Stoneward is my Tank, my Edgedancer/Truthwatcher is my healer, and my Buffer is any of the rest (doing little stuff like Soulcasting and other such things). 

 

I have never played RPG so I am unfamiliar with the terms, but I get the general idea. I guess what you say makes sense. I was just being careful into putting too much faith in Jasnah words. Just because she seems sure of herself does not mean it is true.

 

 

Going back to the OP Question though, I'd say that 4 is the max amount of Kholin Radiants I want. You need some contrast, and I know of at least one that doesn't really fit the mold for a Radiant (I'm looking at you, Elhokar). 

 

You make my day just for saying this    I give you an upvote for saying Elhokar does not fit the mold of a Radiant: I have been saying the same thing in the Elhokar thread.

[Localconfusi0n]

personally I don't think it matters how many KR are in 1 family, so long as it is justifiable (they fit the mold of that order).

 

 

Also, as far as the 3/4 non-combatant role thing goes, that was a different time. Even assuming that this was 100% accurate I think that this will change because of the need for Knights on the battlefield

[kari-no-sugata]

I've pondered some aspects of this before, wondering if there are "network effects" in action:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7674-spren-bonding-motivations/

 

Thinking about it more recently I suspect that Galivar was becoming a Bondsmith and this in particular attracted some other spren to his family. If this is true then Dalinar actually becoming a Bondsmith should definitely influence other spren.

[Guest]

I've pondered some aspects of this before, wondering if there are "network effects" in action:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7674-spren-bonding-motivations/

 

Thinking about it more recently I suspect that Galivar was becoming a Bondsmith and this in particular attracted some other spren to his family. If this is true then Dalinar actually becoming a Bondsmith should definitely influence other spren.

 

Interesting discussion you had there in this other thread! I don't know about Galivar, I am reluctant to see him as a good person. I feel like he had a hidden agenda and that he was up to no good. However, I like the theory stating most sprens that came for bonding are strongly attached to Cultivation whereas only one spren attached to Honor came.....

 

We have not seen any Skybreaker, Stonewards nor Willshaper, although, for the last one we may have seen it, it is just not confirmed yet. It does make sense as these orders would have a stronger incentive to obey to the Stormfather and remain in the cognitive realm.

 

Strangely, the only order Cultivation oriented we have not seen are the Dustbringer... Why is that order always the odd one? Gee.

[Guest]

 

She herself admits the untrustworthiness, though I myself find the number makes sense for a number of reasons:

• The combat orders are more likely to have their members die in battle, leaving less relative to the other types of people in the orders. (Stonewards in particular would be vulnerable to this, I think. When your Ideals include "I will stand", you sort of have to be in ridiculously dangerous situations close to death when all else have ran or failed. High death rate.)
• The combat orders, or at least the Windrunners, are more picky (honorspren in particular are discerning, leading to there being less Windrunners relative to the other orders, I'd imagine).
• Most humans prefer to avoid physical confrontation, and for the most part the world seems to have been peaceful pre-Recreance (because humanity was united vs. Odium). Less people would be in situations where their attributes would shine forth (unless Windrunners like a lead scientist curing a disease can exist).

 

Thanks for fishing it out, but I still find it doubtful. It could be the Radiants post-Desolation took more scholar ways, although it is clear from Dalinar's vision they conserved the art of war. However, I have serious doubt in thinking 3/4 of the Radiants were scholar during the Desolation. It also does not quite fit the orders as a whole....

 

I think we can all agree Skybreakers, Windrunners, Dustbringers and Stonewards are massively war oriented. Edgedancers could fall either way as many probably were proficient healers while many probably were deadly warriors. Willshapers probably had their share of warriors as well and Lightweavers have been known to take up the arms at time. The only one I see as solely scholar oriented are the Truthwatchers and the Elsecallers.

 

I understand this is Jasnah assessment made from incomplete and rusty information, but I have a hard time really believing it, unless I am completely mistaken as to each order's mission.

[Localconfusi0n]

It could be that jasnah just misinterpreted the information. yes 3/4 of radiants pursue scholarship, however most of those are still fierce warriors on the battlefield. She never said they were solely scholars, just that 3/4 were scholars. 

[Guest]

It could be that jasnah just misinterpreted the information. yes 3/4 of radiants pursue scholarship, however most of those are still fierce warriors on the battlefield. She never said they were solely scholars, just that 3/4 were scholars. 

 

Good point, but still, I have a hard time picturing Dustbringers as scholars... Stonewards being resourceful could lead to a career into engineering. Skybreakers could pursue a career as a judge and/or a passive law enforcement or the just a clerk. Windrunners could lead small villages and act as mayors and such.... But Dustbringers? I guess, in time of peace, they could be the equivalent of professional sports people, but I would hardly call that a scholarly pursuit....