I think Elhokar is a radiant

[Arondell]

I think the final verdict on Elhokar is still to come.  It all depends on how he reacts to events after the real assassination attempt.  Admitting openly that he knows he needs to be a better king, Kaladin saving him despite his dislike, and being under the care of Lopen's mother and away from his normal position of authority might change his perspective and understanding of how he should behave.

 

SImply having a good example like his uncle around obviously wasn't enough.  I would hope that he might turn his life around in the wake of these events.  Then again it could end up all going over his head an he could remain the rather childish paranoid man he became in the wake of his fathers death.

[king of nowhere]

Elhokar I feel is a different matter. He has had the opportunity to be a better person. He only had to ask, he only had to seek counsel, he only had to try, but he didn't.

Well, actually he did try. He said it in his rant to kaladin. he tried to be wise and listen to counsel, and ended up being manipulated by roshone and sadeas. he then tried to make himself the decisions, but they were bad ones. he tried to be merciful and people took advantage of him. he tried to be severe, and made a mess of it. Elokar tried, it's just that he really isn't king material.

just having someone show you how it is done is not enough to learn the real thing. my mother and brother have been trying to teach me to iron since i was a teen, and I've been living alone for four years so i was forced to practice ironing, but I'm still no better than I was the first time i tried, and the best thing i can accomplish is to move the wrinkles around without adding new ones. they keep being baffled because i follow all their advice and still can't do it. so, i can't learn ironing, even if i try. elokar can't be a good king, even if he tries. The right decision would be to abdicate, but alethi culture say that people are put in their position by god, and if god deemed elokar fit to be a king, how can elokar disagree?

Edited September 9, 2014 by king of nowhere

[hoser]

Well, actually he did try. He said it in his rant to kaladin. he tried to be wise and listen to counsel, and ended up being manipulated by roshone and sadeas. he then tried to make himself the decisions, but they were bad ones. he tried to be merciful and people took advantage of him. he tried to be severe, and made a mess of it. Elokar tried, it's just that he really isn't king material.

just having someone show you how it is done is not enough to learn the real thing. my mother and brother have been trying to teach me to iron since i was a teen, and I've been living alone for four years so i was forced to practice ironing, but I'm still no better than I was the first time i tried, and the best thing i can accomplish is to move the wrinkles around without adding new ones. they keep being baffled because i follow all their advice and still can't do it. so, i can't learn ironing, even if i try. elokar can't be a good king, even if he tries. The right decision would be to abdicate, but alethi culture say that people are put in their position by god, and if god deemed elokar fit to be a king, how can elokar disagree?

Maybe it's impossible, but it's not clear to me. 

 

I think his actions have failed because his intention is to preserve and he is operating from a sense of entitlement.  To act properly, he needs a positive vision.  Preserving is not really positive.  If only there were a book that could help kings rule in a positive manner. 

 

As it stands, he has essentially abdicated to Dalinar, who has had more of a positive vision due to the in-world WoK and his visions.  But Dalinar now has responsibilities for the Radiants and the whole world.  I could see Elhokar having the book read to him and taking guidance from Kaladin and Dalinar to become a better leader and possibly even a Radiant. 

 

Kaladin's next challenges are likely to revolve around leadership, so if he is in contact w/Elhokar, it would fit his further development as a Windrunner.  While Kaladin is likely to spend the next book in Alethkar, the Oathgate could be opened and Elhokar could (and probably should) travel there.  In an odd way, Elhokar knows that he can absolutely trust Kaladin.  If Elhokar starts shaping up, Kaladin could more easily support him. 

Edited September 9, 2014 by hoser

[maxal]

I think the final verdict on Elhokar is still to come.  It all depends on how he reacts to events after the real assassination attempt.  Admitting openly that he knows he needs to be a better king, Kaladin saving him despite his dislike, and being under the care of Lopen's mother and away from his normal position of authority might change his perspective and understanding of how he should behave.

 

SImply having a good example like his uncle around obviously wasn't enough.  I would hope that he might turn his life around in the wake of these events.  Then again it could end up all going over his head an he could remain the rather childish paranoid man he became in the wake of his fathers death.

 

Perhaps he'll end up being a better person, but he will never be a good king. Perhaps he could do in a time of peace, but while his country is facing a Desolation?

 

 

Well, actually he did try. He said it in his rant to kaladin. he tried to be wise and listen to counsel, and ended up being manipulated by roshone and sadeas. he then tried to make himself the decisions, but they were bad ones. he tried to be merciful and people took advantage of him. he tried to be severe, and made a mess of it. Elokar tried, it's just that he really isn't king material.

just having someone show you how it is done is not enough to learn the real thing. my mother and brother have been trying to teach me to iron since i was a teen, and I've been living alone for four years so i was forced to practice ironing, but I'm still no better than I was the first time i tried, and the best thing i can accomplish is to move the wrinkles around without adding new ones. they keep being baffled because i follow all their advice and still can't do it. so, i can't learn ironing, even if i try. elokar can't be a good king, even if he tries. The right decision would be to abdicate, but alethi culture say that people are put in their position by god, and if god deemed elokar fit to be a king, how can elokar disagree?

 

You make good points. I do agree with. Elhokar cannot be the king Alethkar needs, right now.

 

They need a king who would be capable of leading the armies: Elhokar will never be that person as he is not brave. He acts bravely and recklessly when there is nothing at stake just to show of (like during the chamsfield hunt when he dares his uncle to race him), but as soon as things start to get real: he whimpers away helplessly. He will never be the man behind which the armies will unite themselves. As he cannot be this person, he will never manage to gain sufficient respect to lead effectively, not in a time of gruesome war where lifes are at stake.

 

They need a king who could inspire them to better themselves, to fight for a higher cause then their own personal profit. Elhokar is not an inspiring person. He does not have the personality for it.

 

Best he can hope to achieve, as a king, is to be a passable one in time of peace, which is not likely to happen any time soon.

 

He needs to abdicate or die. Plain and simple

[Shardcellist]

 

I think Adolin must have a good part of natural talent to reach the level he currently is at.., but it is quite clear he worked very hard to perfect his skill. Dalinar comments on it in WoK, stating how hard Adolin had been practicing to be the duelist he now is.

This.

I am reminded of Waxillium. Miles comments on how he was "naturally gifted," which he probably was, but he had also just spend twenty years or so in the Roughs. Shooting for a living, you might say.

On the same note, Adolin probably is inherently talented, able to reach levels the average Shardbearer could only dream of. However, as Dalinar mentions, dueling is his life. He probably is in the practice arena every day. Natural talent is nothing without practice. (Like Shallan and her pictures, or Kaladin and the spear, also almost inhumanely skilled in their areas. Hmmmm...)

 

 

Kaladin's next challenges are likely to revolve around leadership, so if he is in contact w/Elhokar, it would fit his further development as a Windrunner.  While Kaladin is likely to spend the next book in Alethkar, the Oathgate could be opened and Elhokar could (and probably should) travel there.  In an odd way, Elhokar knows that he can absolutely trust Kaladin.  If Elhokar starts shaping up, Kaladin could more easily support him. 

This is a very interesting point, and could make a fantastic plot line. As of now (end of WOR), I feel Kaladin is like Ham as far as leadership goes; fantastic with a small group that he gets to know really well, but terrible at a higher level.

 

 

He needs to abdicate or die. Plain and simple.

Ouch! You, my friend, would make an excellent Skybreaker (in an Incompetence-Is-Illegal, Nalan sort of way), or a Dustbringer (some think they are the ones that do the... less-tasteful...things that others can't/won't.

Nalan stepped up towards Elhokar, Honorblade gleaming in his hand. "So, what about that Roshone incident now?"

 

 

 

I think Elhokar may have once been able to be a Surgebinder (he seemed to see Cryptics, which could fit in a hiding-truth-from-myself-and-others complex I can definitely see him having. I mean, in the beginning of TWOK, Shallan's goal was literally to steal the most powerful artifact she knew of from the most powerful woman she knew of, all while pretending to be her ward. Not exactly Radiant quality, but by the end of that book she gave up her family in order to save the world. (sort of.)

[Arondell]

 Elhokar will never be that person as he is not brave. He acts bravely and recklessly when there is nothing at stake just to show of (like during the chamsfield hunt when he dares his uncle to race him), but as soon as things start to get real: he whimpers away helplessly.

 

Errr...Your refering to that scene in the chasm fiend hunt?  The same one when he charged the Chasm Fiend on foot after he fell from his horse?  That was foolish perhaps but I don't think it showed a lack of courage.  He certainly didn't "whimper away helplessly" when a creature capable of smashing him flat, even with shardplate, showed up.

 

 

Elhokar’s Shardblade reformed in his hands, and he charged toward the monster’s chest, his cracked shoulder leaking Stormlight. He got close and swung at the beast’s torso, cutting free a piece of chitin—like a person’s hair or nails, it could be cut by a Blade. Then Elhokar slammed his weapon into the monster’s breast, seeking its heart.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 207). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

Elhokar has exhibited, paranoia, jealousy, and poor judgement as king.  I don't think you can honestly say he has shown any particular lack of courage.

[maxal]

This.

I am reminded of Waxillium. Miles comments on how he was "naturally gifted," which he probably was, but he had also just spend twenty years or so in the Roughs. Shooting for a living, you might say.

On the same note, Adolin probably is inherently talented, able to reach levels the average Shardbearer could only dream of. However, as Dalinar mentions, dueling is his life. He probably is in the practice arena every day. Natural talent is nothing without practice. (Like Shallan and her pictures, or Kaladin and the spear, also almost inhumanely skilled in their areas. Hmmmm...)

 

According to Renarin, Adolin started learning the sword at the age of six, which is unusual. He comments over the fact his brother is somewhat "different" in that matter or this is how I read it. Therefore, we can conclude Adolin probably did practice nearly everyday of his life to reach his current level. That is about 16 years of intensive training and this is quite a bit more than the four intense years Kaladin spent on learning the spear. However, I do believe mastering the sword is much more difficult than mastering the spear as Kaladin inherently suck with the sword to begin with while he was good from the start with the spear.

 

As for Shallan, she did spend her entire teenage years drawing, everyday, intensively, so yeah, I can believe she is this good now.

 

I have somehow a hard time picturing Elhokar doing the same to master any skill... The guy does not seem very to know much about perseverance. He tries one way, it does not work right away: he quits and so on.

 

 

This is a very interesting point, and could make a fantastic plot line. As of now (end of WOR), I feel Kaladin is like Ham as far as leadership goes; fantastic with a small group that he gets to know really well, but terrible at a higher level.

 

Totally agree. I mentioned in another thread how I believe Kal's leadership will not be applied at a large scale, but over small groups... I do not see him take Dalinar's place, for example. Kal does not get the big picture and to centered on protecting his small group of people to take decision that would affect many and could possibly put some into danger.

 

 

Ouch! You, my friend, would make an excellent Skybreaker (in an Incompetence-Is-Illegal, Nalan sort of way), or a Dustbringer (some think they are the ones that do the... less-tasteful...things that others can't/won't.

Nalan stepped up towards Elhokar, Honorblade gleaming in his hand. "So, what about that Roshone incident now?"

 

Or a Willshaper as I, once I get a bone, never give up

 

 

I think Elhokar may have once been able to be a Surgebinder (he seemed to see Cryptics, which could fit in a hiding-truth-from-myself-and-others complex I can definitely see him having. I mean, in the beginning of TWOK, Shallan's goal was literally to steal the most powerful artifact she knew of from the most powerful woman she knew of, all while pretending to be her ward. Not exactly Radiant quality, but by the end of that book she gave up her family in order to save the world. (sort of.)

 

Yeah but the main difference between Shallan, Kaladin and Elhokar is that the former two have a talent: Shallan is amazing at drawing and Kaladin is amazing with the spear. However, talent only bring you so far: you need to work to perfect your skill which is exactly what both Shallan and Kaladin are doing. Heck, we could even throw Adolin into the lot even if he has not presented any sign of becoming a Radiant: he does share some similitude with the ones we do have. Elhokar has no visible talent, worst, he does seem like the kind of guy who never works very hard at anything. Whereas it is true he may have been born with the proper quality set, he did not work them up, which makes him unworthy or unsuitable to a Radiant.

 

 

Errr...Your refering to that scene in the chasm fiend hunt?  The same one when he charged the Chasm Fiend on foot after he fell from his horse?  That was foolish perhaps but I don't think it showed a lack of courage.  He certainly didn't "whimper away helplessly" when a creature capable of smashing him flat, even with shardplate, showed up.

 

OK all right. He did not whimpered in that scene , I seemed to recall he did, but I guess I was wrong ... but he did whimpered when the Assassin came back... Being scared of Assassin is no excuse, Dalinar, Adolin or Kaladin would have never whimpered in front of something that scares them: they would have attack. Elhokar just cannot face his fears. I guess he was just not scare of a chasmfield, not to mention he purposely caused the death of fifty men with his folly...

 

 

Elhokar has exhibited, paranoia, jealousy, and poor judgement as king.  I don't think you can honestly say he has shown any particular lack of courage.

 

He did, when the Assasin comes back... If I recall it right, he did not offer to fight it: he was on the verge of tears

[kaellok]

He did, when the Assasin comes back... If I recall it right, he did not offer to fight it: he was on the verge of tears

Important to note that Elhokar has a fear of the Assassin in White that goes well into the irrational.  Focusing on one aspect, where multiple people point out he's crazy, to show a lack of courage is perhaps not entirely fair to Elhokar (which, if you're not feeling like being fair to him, since he's a spoiled, whiny, self-righteous and utterly incompetent brat, is, itself, more than fair).  

[maxal]

Important to note that Elhokar has a fear of the Assassin in White that goes well into the irrational.  Focusing on one aspect, where multiple people point out he's crazy, to show a lack of courage is perhaps not entirely fair to Elhokar (which, if you're not feeling like being fair to him, since he's a spoiled, whiny, self-righteous and utterly incompetent brat, is, itself, more than fair).  

 

Perhaps you are right and I am being unfair,    but I keep trying to imagine what Dalinar, Kaladin or Adolin would have done in his place... None would have backed away. It is why I am being so hard on him: I feel like he should have taken this opportunity to face his fear.

[WeiryWriter]

Perhaps you are right and I am being unfair,    but I keep trying to imagine what Dalinar, Kaladin or Adolin would have done in his place... None would have backed away. It is why I am being so hard on him: I feel like he should have taken this opportunity to face his fear.

 

But Elhokar *isn't* Dalinar, Adolin or Kaladin, he's Elhokar.  It is not fair to him think otherwise.  Think about things from his perspective, the Assassin in White killed his father, who was in full shardplate at the time, who was also a very skilled fighter (probably significantly better than Elhokar is) but he died anyway.  The Assassin in White has also just finished a world tour of assassination fostering an environment of fear for the world leaders of Roshar, not just Elhokar.  Him being terrified out of his mind is completely understandable, it's possible Szeth saying he was there for Dalinar and not for him did not even register.  "Taking the opportunity to face his fear" is understandable request when it is something like spiders, the dark, or enclosed spaces, not when it is a regicidal maniac who has already taken out your father, who was a much better man then you are.

[king of nowhere]

we all know that szeth slaughtered  a room with three shardbearers and dozens of soldiers with half-shards in it with barely any effort. elokar knew it as well. I'd call his reaction much more rational than that of the others, if not for the simple fact that you can't outrun szeth unless you are a windrunner yourself. Anyway, being terrified by szeth is nothing if not acceptable. I would not call anyone a coward for that.

[maxal]

we all know that szeth slaughtered  a room with three shardbearers and dozens of soldiers with half-shards in it with barely any effort. elokar knew it as well. I'd call his reaction much more rational than that of the others, if not for the simple fact that you can't outrun szeth unless you are a windrunner yourself. Anyway, being terrified by szeth is nothing if not acceptable. I would not call anyone a coward for that.

 

Yeah, but a Radiant should be more than that. I do not mind Elhokar behaving the way he did and I will not put past him. What bothers me is to think he may get away with behaving this way AND become a Radiant. That is my whole issue with Elhokar. He does not behave like a Radiant, not at all. The fact he could be one just makes the bile rise in my stomach.

 

This is just another example as to how unsuited I think he is to be a Radiant. If it weren't for the symbolheads he claims he is seeing, nobody would ever take him for a proto-radiant. The fact he so clearly isn't one makes me strongly think what he is seeing is not order related, but something else.

Edited September 11, 2014 by maxal

[Moogle]

Only one order - the Dustbringers - really symbolizes bravery, though the top half of the orders (Stonewards to Dustbringers) certainly demand it from their members. The bottom orders don't really demand bravery, and in fact the Elsecallers are opposed to it, idealizing caution.

 

I'm not opposed to Elhokar being a possible Radiant, I'm opposed to the general name of the "Knights" Radiant. 3/4 of them (not sure on exact number) were not fighters, to go by Jasnah. Every single one we've seen thus far has been unusually combat-ready relative to this ratio, and so I think we've so far been presented a biased view of what most Knights were supposed to be like. I certainly hope not every Knight was super brave.

[kaellok]

Perhaps you are right and I am being unfair,    but I keep trying to imagine what Dalinar, Kaladin or Adolin would have done in his place... None would have backed away. It is why I am being so hard on him: I feel like he should have taken this opportunity to face his fear.

Like I said, you don't have to be fair to him if you don't want to, but you should know when you're being unfair    I don't like the guy, but find it important to give credit to where it's due.

 

Personally, I find the thought of Szeth as a Radiant far more distasteful than Elhokar.  I also have concerns with Skybreakers in general, and modern-day Skybreakers in particular, so that's just one of my hangups (that has been addressed in at least a couple of the Skybreaker/Szeth threads and doesn't need to be rehashed here.  Just bringing up this thread to show that the Orders of the Radiants are rather drastically different from some others, even if they all share a common goal.)

 

And you are absolutely correct that the only reason people think that Elhokar may be a proto-Radiant is due to the spren he saw (whether they were Radiantspren or Odiumspren is up for debate, but not, I think, that he saw spren.)  The same can be said of Eshonai--if she hadn't seen the comet-shaped spren, would there be such a consensus that she is likely to be a Willshaper?  Without the spren, would there have been so many questions asked and answered regarding Parshendi Radiants?

 

The biggest thing that I have to give Elhokar is the same thing that Kaladin does, finally, at the end--Elhokar tries.  Sure, he's failed at everything, but that doesn't stop him from trying.  Maybe that quality is what attracted spren to come to him in the first place; it's certainly worthy of recognition and even respect.

Edited September 11, 2014 by kaellok

[maxal]

Only one order - the Dustbringers - really symbolizes bravery, though the top half of the orders (Stonewards to Dustbringers) certainly demand it from their members. The bottom orders don't really demand bravery, and in fact the Elsecallers are opposed to it, idealizing caution.

 

I'm not opposed to Elhokar being a possible Radiant, I'm opposed to the general name of the "Knights" Radiant. 3/4 of them (not sure on exact number) were not fighters, to go by Jasnah. Every single one we've seen thus far has been unusually combat-ready relative to this ratio, and so I think we've so far been presented a biased view of what most Knights were supposed to be like. I certainly hope not every Knight was super brave.

 

I answered you about the 3/4 part of your argumentation in another thread... Do you have evidence you it? Because I seem to recall Jasnah saying as many scholars as warriors... There is also the fact I do not give too much credence to Jasnah's finding as she is working with incomplete information and she may be biased towards putting more scholars then they really were. I somehow doubt only one fourth of the Radiants, in a context of war, were indeed warriors...

 

 

Like I said, you don't have to be fair to him if you don't want to, but you should know when you're being unfair    I don't like the guy, but find it important to give credit to where it's due.

 

He just makes the bile rise up in my stomach and to think he may be a Radiant... I just don't understand why he has so much support for becoming one...

 

 

 

Personally, I find the thought of Szeth as a Radiant far more distasteful than Elhokar.  I also have concerns with Skybreakers in general, and modern-day Skybreakers in particular, so that's just one of my hangups (that has been addressed in at least a couple of the Skybreaker/Szeth threads and doesn't need to be rehashed here.  Just bringing up this thread to show that the Orders of the Radiants are rather drastically different from some others, even if they all share a common goal.)

 

A few months ago, I would have agreed with you. I have however started to review my opinion of Szeth. He is a guy who puts the law above anything else. He got stuck into a situation where whatever he did, he ended breaking a law. A horrible dilemma for a proto-Radiant.

 

 

And you are absolutely correct that the only reason people think that Elhokar may be a proto-Radiant is due to the spren he saw (whether they were Radiantspren or Odiumspren is up for debate, but not, I think, that he saw spren.)  The same can be said of Eshonai--if she hadn't seen the comet-shaped spren, would there be such a consensus that she is likely to be a Willshaper?  Without the spren, would there have been so many questions asked and answered regarding Parshendi Radiants?

 

The biggest thing that I have to give Elhokar is the same thing that Kaladin does, finally, at the end--Elhokar tries.  Sure, he's failed at everything, but that doesn't stop him from trying.  Maybe that quality is what attracted spren to come to him in the first place; it's certainly worthy of recognition and even respect.

 

About Eshonai, we have a WoB stating the comet-like spren is related to one of the order. I guess this is a pretty strong argument for Eshonai making it to Radianhood. That and the fact she is scheduled for a flashback book and she was described as the Explorer. Without those elements, I guess that no, we wouldn't be talking about her in such way.

 

Kaladin tries to protect people, the Windrunners first attribute. Whereas it is true Elhokar is trying to be a good king, he is not trying to be a better person or to live by some Radiant associated motto. Not everyone that is trying in life has to be a Radiant and that may be broken as to be a Radiant...

[kreeble]

To be fair, we also (to my knowledge) haven't had any POV's from Elkohar, nor has he had as much "screen time" as the other main characters in character development scenes. So while we get to see Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar go through trying situations both from outside and inside their heads, all we get is a relatively minor slice of Elkohar solely from others point of view. Furthermore, most of these characters are ones which have their own prejudices towards him: Dalinar's views about Elkohar are colored by his comparison to Gavilar, Kaladin's by his hatred of lighteyes, etc. So I don't think its necessarily fair to say that Elkohar is completely without talent, simply because we haven't really been given a chance to see him in a situation where he might be able to display a talent in a way that would be remarked on by another character.

 

Re: Elkohar and his knowledge of Szeth. During the fight in Ch. 33, Elokohar leaves with Renarin and the guards right after Szeth shows up. 3.5 pages go by (in the hardback) before Szeth reveals he is there for Dalinar. When Kaladin shows up post-fall in the next chapter, this happens:

"He wants to claim me," Elkohar said. His back was to them, and Kaladin could make out a cup in his hand. He downed the contents, then immediately refilled it from a jug. Deep violet wine. Elkohar's hand was trembling as he poured.

Kaladin met Dalinar's eyes. The highprince had heard. This Szeth had not come for the kind, but Dalinar.

Dalinar didn't say anything to correct the king, so Kaladin didn't either.

 

So Elkohar has no idea that Szeth isn't after him, and its somewhat unfair to hold his mistake against him, given everything else that others have said already.

 

 

 

(Also, hooray for first "substantive" post! Been lurking here for a while now!)

[maxal]

To be fair, we also (to my knowledge) haven't had any POV's from Elkohar, nor has he had as much "screen time" as the other main characters in character development scenes. So while we get to see Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar go through trying situations both from outside and inside their heads, all we get is a relatively minor slice of Elkohar solely from others point of view. Furthermore, most of these characters are ones which have their own prejudices towards him: Dalinar's views about Elkohar are colored by his comparison to Gavilar, Kaladin's by his hatred of lighteyes, etc. So I don't think its necessarily fair to say that Elkohar is completely without talent, simply because we haven't really been given a chance to see him in a situation where he might be able to display a talent in a way that would be remarked on by another character.

 

I don't entirely agree....

 

Dalinar's vision of Elhokar is incredibly positive: he sees him as a great man and a strong king. The guilt he feels towards losing his brother has made him blind to his nephew's failings: he forgives Elhokar everything and he never helds a grudge against him, even when he does deserve it.

 

I would not say Kaladin's vision of Elhokar is tainted by his hatred of lighteyes. On his first encounter with the king, his initials thoughts were that he couldn't believe the king would be so whiny and held so little control over his gathering. Hatred had not come yet into play. Kal is used to be ordered around: he is a darkeye, so I do trust this particular judgement of his. Elhokar is not in control, worst, he whines through the whole thing.

 

We must also not dismiss Navani's vision of her own son, whom she loves dearly. Despite this, she is amongst the first to claim how weak and useless as a king her son is. When they are getting ready for the 4 on 1 duel, she talks to Adolin, warning him and imploring him to be careful all the while saying they could not trust Elhokar so much as her son was temperamental.... meaning that even if he likes a plan, even if he commits to it, he may fail in the end just because he feels like having a tantrum, which ultimately, he did.

 

Elhokar has had opportunity to shine. There was the chasmfield hunt where he behave like a complete idiot and this caused the death of his men. There was the whole trying to take over Sadeas ordeal to which he offered no suggestions, no comments, no insights. This was a golden opportunity for him to show what he is made of as he dealt with a dissident member of his court. He chose to do nothing about it except letting his uncle have his way, which ultimately has provoke Adolin's fall from grace. There was also the attack of the Assassin in White where he behave quite un-Radiant-like. Whereas it is true only one order had bravery as their attribute, none of the others we have met have coward in such way when facing an ordeal. Some got scare, some got worried, but they never, never lost it. Also, when Dalinar and co went to find Urithiru, he has another golden opportunity to lead effectively as he was away from Dalinar. What did he chose to do instead? Getting drunk. Really.

 

It could be he has a hidden talent somewhere, but it is his overall behavior that prompts me to say he does not fit the mold of a Radiant. Whatever hardship he has to face, he does so by whining, drinking and just not acting. As I said earlier, if it weren't for the symbol heads he is seeing, who would call him a proto-radiant? Who? Raise your hands?

 

 

 

Re: Elkohar and his knowledge of Szeth. During the fight in Ch. 33, Elokohar leaves with Renarin and the guards right after Szeth shows up. 3.5 pages go by (in the hardback) before Szeth reveals he is there for Dalinar. When Kaladin shows up post-fall in the next chapter, this happens:

So Elkohar has no idea that Szeth isn't after him, and its somewhat unfair to hold his mistake against him, given everything else that others have said already.

 

Ok you are right about that one. I wonder why they refused to tell him....

[Zea mays]

What's interesting is that later in the book, when

Elhokar comes to speak to Kaladin he says something like "even the Assassin in white, when he finally came, only went after Dalinar, not me" (not exact quote). I wonder if he came to that conclusion on his own, or maybe... Maybe Adolin had a private conversation with him before he placed himself in jail. We never see those two together afterwards, and suddenly the king seems humbler and less self assured.

Just idle speculation on my part.

[maxal]

What's interesting is that later in the book, when

Elhokar comes to speak to Kaladin he says something like "even the Assassin in white, when he finally came, only went after Dalinar, not me" (not exact quote). I wonder if he came to that conclusion on his own, or maybe... Maybe Adolin had a private conversation with him before he placed himself in jail. We never see those two together afterwards, and suddenly the king seems humbler and less self assured.

Just idle speculation on my part.

 

He has been dreading the Assassin and when he realizes he wants nothing to do with him, instead of being relived, he starts pouting... Really.

 

Could be Adolin told him, however when he decided to go into jail, there were a lot of angry shouts, so I guess Adolin did not went in quietly or that his family opposed themselves quite violently to the idea. Adolin being as stubborn as Dalinar got his way. I have, however, wondered where the heck was Adolin in the room, after the duel, when Elhokar wants to have Kal executed... Dalinar was there, but why was Adolin not there as well? Where had he gone to? Perhaps in a burst of angry shouting he told the truth to the king, but frankly I am clueless as to what their relationship is. In WoK, when Adolin speaks up in their small group of people, he gets a reproachful glance from Elhokar, so I'm prone to thinking Elhokar still thinks of his cousins as kids much younger than him and that Adolin still thinks of the king as the much older cousin. They don't seem to have bonded a lot during their childhood.

[Zea mays]

I always thought Adolin was recovering from the duel, having his shardplate removed, etc. Dalinar could have just said "I will deal with this" and given him a stern look, and that would be that. Obviously, later he was not entirely satisfied with how his father dealt with things.

Think about something else Elhokar says to Kaladin in the barracks "Everyone loves you". Whom does he mean by "everyone"? The bridgemen? No, they don't matter to Elohkar. He's talking about members of his own family. Dalinar still treats Elohkar as a child who needs guidance, but he respects and listens to this younger dark-eyed (ex-)slave. Ouch! Renarin went out of his way to be placed within his squad, and Adolin even threw himself in jail for him.

It's little wonder Ellie' is feeling a bit jealous and insecure these days.

Just during typing this it occurred to me that there might be one other person who could have secretly influenced Elhokar's thinking: Wit could have told him a story...

[Slater]

 

 

 

Ok you are right about that one. I wonder why they refused to tell him....

"Hey Elhokar you know how you have massive self esteem and adequacy issues? Yeah well get this, you're also basically  the ONLY world leader who actually isn't important enough to assassinate. That'll help your sense of self worth right?"

 

There is no possible way him finding out just how little he actually matters in the eyes of the rest of the world could help in anyway. Even if he suspects it himself (which he probably does going by his talk with Kal) having it thrown in his face that he is literally not important enough to kill could only end horribly.

[maxal]

I always thought Adolin was recovering from the duel, having his shardplate removed, etc. Dalinar could have just said "I will deal with this" and given him a stern look, and that would be that. Obviously, later he was not entirely satisfied with how his father dealt with things.

 

His shardplate was already removed... Kal and Renarin got him out of it in the arena right before he got his boon. I just wonder why it took three days before deciding on imprisoning himself. He was obviously upset about the ordeal, so I do wonder why he didn't burst in on the king and Dalinar to make his point being heard. Wouldn't be the first time he talks back to Dalinar in inappropriate moments...

 

 

Think about something else Elhokar says to Kaladin in the barracks "Everyone loves you". Whom does he mean by "everyone"? The bridgemen? No, they don't matter to Elohkar. He's talking about members of his own family. Dalinar still treats Elohkar as a child who needs guidance, but he respects and listens to this younger dark-eyed (ex-)slave. Ouch! Renarin went out of his way to be placed within his squad, and Adolin even threw himself in jail for him.

It's little wonder Ellie' is feeling a bit jealous and insecure these days.

 

For me, this scene was classic childish Elhokar having a tantrum.. Oh look at that, my uncle seem to respect more this new kid then me: I am so jealous, I will thus pout. This is a very extremely childish reaction he is having, one you would expect from a kid under the age of 12. The fact he never grew out of this sort of behavior (as most kids will eventually stop being pouty and realize that other people having worth does not diminish theirs) is telling onto how immature he is and how unwilling he is to actually change. Most people who grow into adulthood while retaining those childish instincts will realize their are being childish and will try to work on themselves. Not Elhokar. At his age, he should have gone through the mental process of trying to better himself: he is almost thirty!

 

Dalinar respects Kal because Kal is worthy of this respect. Even Adolin who does not trust Kal is able to see that and does not get jealous at all: he gets suspicious. Renarin asked to be place into Kal's squad mostly because they only did patrol as opposed to actual fighting. Besides, Renaris is what 10 years younger than Elhokar, I have a hard time seeing Elhokar being jealous of Kal because Renarin likes him....

 

My point is Elhokar has always been insecure. There is nothing new, but he has grown into his adult years without ever trying to actually work on himself, which is quite unlike the behavior of most young persons. The fact he does not try, the fact his reaction to everything he finds hard is to back away, pout, whine, drink or get jealous tells me he certainly is no Radiant. Even if he does admit to his failings, he does so in a manner that indicates how jealous he is of Kal... and of probably anyone for that matter.

 

And before someone says it, no Elhokar does not try. He tried to be a good king, but he never understood he was the problem and the thing he had to work on was himself. So no, he never tried to be a better person, he never tried to let go of his childish behaviors, instead he digs himself into them even deeper.

[maxal]

Just during typing this it occurred to me that there might be one other person who could have secretly influenced Elhokar's thinking: Wit could have told him a story...

 

Forgot to answer this one.... Wit's interest in people has nothing to do with anything. It does not mean anything special, one way or another. Besides, we know Elhokar likes Wit, not that Wit like Elhokar...

[kaellok]

Forgot to answer this one.... Wit's interest in people has nothing to do with anything. It does not mean anything special, one way or another. Besides, we know Elhokar likes Wit, not that Wit like Elhokar...

Since Wit is Hoid, and Hoid is there to meddle, if Hoid is showing sustained interest in a person it is for a specific reason--that interest is of note.  It doesn't necessarily mean that the person is good, or special, but that they have the capability of being important to Hoid's plans.  We can speculate all we want on why Hoid is showing interest (maybe it's to keep Elhokar from being worse!  Maybe it's to make sure he makes a decision poor to Roshar but good for Hoid! Who knows?), but in every other instance of Hoid showing interest in someone they had an important role to play.  This happened in Mistborn, Warbreaker, WoK, and WoR (I was Cosmere unaware when I read Elantris last and don't remember him, but I imagine that it would be the same).

 

Then again, he could have also been keeping his role as Wit to gain access to the Kholins, and Elhokar himself is unimportant to the plans.  While very possible, it just doesn't seem right to me.

 

 

My point is Elhokar has always been insecure. There is nothing new, but he has grown into his adult years without ever trying to actually work on himself, which is quite unlike the behavior of most young persons. The fact he does not try, the fact his reaction to everything he finds hard is to back away, pout, whine, drink or get jealous tells me he certainly is no Radiant. Even if he does admit to his failings, he does so in a manner that indicates how jealous he is of Kal... and of probably anyone for that matter.

 

And before someone says it, no Elhokar does not try. He tried to be a good king, but he never understood he was the problem and the thing he had to work on was himself. So no, he never tried to be a better person, he never tried to let go of his childish behaviors, instead he digs himself into them even deeper.

That bolded sentence hits the nail on the head.  Everyone in his family has been more successful, arguably more important, than him--even though he was the heir to the throne and later the king.  He is the average son in a family that is incredibly above average in intelligence and skill.  And his family doesn't seem to have helped the matter any, but rather helped to encourage his immaturity.  Then, Gavilar dies and he's suddenly thrust into being the King long before he's actually prepared or ready, or before Alethkar itself is ready, and immediately has to deal with High Princes who have spent literally decades in the game of brutal politics and warfare. 

 

Dalinar himself tells us that Elhokar managed to hold the nation together, and that's worthy of a lot in and of itself.  He's still a bad, immature king that hasn't grown up the way he should have.  And maybe he isn't, today, material worthy of being a Radiant.  This doesn't mean that he's wholly and entirely awful and without any worth or that he will always have nothing to offer.  It just means that he never grew up, because he was never forced to do so.  Growing up and maturing isn't something that just spontaneously happens--it has to be encouraged.  Birds know that there's a time when the babies have to leave the nest and fly on their own, but Elhokar has been stuck in that nest for far too long.  I think that we'll see a lot of really good changes in him after spending time with Lopen's mom.

 

I also absolutely fundamentally disagree with your last sentences here--Elhokar does try.  Over and over again he tries.  He consistently chooses the wrong option, or the wrong decision, or fails--but never because he's a bad person.  It's always in the heat of the moment, or due to bad advice, and we see how he is able to gradually be shown the more correct path.  He didn't just execute Kaladin, but put him in prison; a few days later, he allowed Kaladin to be released.  A bad person would have executed Kaladin out of hand, as well as anyone who spoke out against it.  He's childish, and petulant, and needs to grow the hell up--absolutely no argument.  But he's not, for instance, Sadeas (a man who remained selfish all through his years, but matured enough to get his way by being cunning, brutal, and evil.)

Edited September 15, 2014 by kaellok

[Moogle]

 He didn't just execute Kaladin, but put him in prison; a few days later, he allowed Kaladin to be released.  A bad person would have executed Kaladin out of hand, as well as anyone who spoke out against it. 

 

Well, he did want Kaladin executed, but Dalinar stopped him. Anyone else, and Elhokar probably would not have been stopped - Dalinar is in charge, and Elhokar knows it. Of course, one could argue he was just using the argument with Dalinar as a means of testing his control, and wasn't actually interested in punishing Kaladin, but that's not what Elhokar later claims. Could be a bit of both.

 

“It’s not his skill but his discipline that is the problem!” The king folded his arms. “Execution.”

Kaladin looked up sharply.

“Don’t be ridiculous,” Dalinar said, stepping up beside Kaladin’s chair.

“It is the punishment for slandering a highlord,” Elhokar said. “It is the law.”

“You can pardon any crime, as king,” Dalinar said. “Don’t tell me you honestly want to see this man hanged after what he did today.”

“Would you stop me?” Elhokar said.

“I wouldn’t stand for it , that’s certain.” Elhokar crossed the room, stepping right up to Dalinar. For a moment, Kaladin seemed forgotten.

“Am I king?” Elhokar asked.

“Of course you are.”

“You don’t act like it. You’re going to have to decide something, Uncle. I won’t continue letting you rule, making a puppet of me.”

“I’m not—”

“I say the boy is to be executed. What do you say of that?”

“I’d say that in attempting such a thing, you’d make an enemy of me, Elhokar.” Dalinar had grown tense.

Just try to execute me . . . Kaladin thought. Just try.

The two stared at each other for a long moment. Finally, Elhokar turned away. “Prison.”

 

He does later claim he was doing it entirely because he was jealous:

The king looked to him. “I am sorry for what I did to you. I watched you fight to help Adolin, and then I saw you defend Renarin . . . and I grew jealous. There you were, such a champion, so loved. And everyone hates me. I should have gone to fight myself. “Instead, I overreacted to your challenge of Amaram. You weren’t the one who ruined our chance against Sadeas. It was me. Dalinar was right. Again. I’m so tired of him being right, and me being wrong. In light of that, I am not at all surprised that you find me a bad king.”

 

Overall, I wouldn't use this scene in support of the idea that Elhokar is "trying". It's not exactly a virtue for someone to try to get someone executed because you're jealous. It's something of a virtue to later apologize for it, but that's still not much of an endorsement of a character - just imagine saying "well, my friend murders people in fits of rage because he has no self-control, but at least he tries not to and apologizes after the fact - he's not as bad as <insert evil dictator here>".

 

Excusing it by saying it only happens "in the heat of the moment" is not something I can agree with, as Kaladin would still be dead after Elhokar cooled down. It was a huge reason I was apathetic about the end to Kaladin's arc - the book built up Elhokar as someone who should have been deposed and we were constantly hammered with that fact. That Dalinar was willing to keep him in charge is worrying, and he has a definite blind spot for Elhokar.

 

The instant Dalinar is distracted by something and can't keep an eye on Elhokar (say, a war with Taravangian that Dalinar has to run?), Elhokar goes and murders people or messes up in some other way (Moash's parents, for example). This has been happening for years without Elhokar getting better. We've seen two examples of people Elhokar has killed/would have killed - Kaladin and Moash's parents - and it just leads me to wonder how many more people were hurt by Elhokar who don't have powerful friends to protect them.

 

At some point, you have to wonder whether Elhokar is actually trying or just has fits of insecurity which make him briefly wish he could be "better". It's suspicious that he always has an excuse - it's possible he's just a genuinely incompetent and unlucky person, but it's just as likely that he's very good at rationalizing past decisions to make it seem like he was trying to do the right thing when Dalinar yells at him for doing something wrong.

 

(As a side note which is tangentially related: what on earth made Elhokar choose Aesudan? He married her before Gavilar's death, which seems fairly premature. She's basically as bad as he is, only she doesn't have Dalinar constantly stopping her from making decisions. I would love to have an Elhokar book, if only to see that romance(?) develop.)

 

Elhokar can and should be given the chance to learn to be a good person, just not at the same time as being king when his "mistakes" (if you call trying to execute people out of jealousy a "mistake") cost lives.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Moogle