I think Elhokar is a radiant

[kaellok he/him]

Urghhh, I strongly disagree with this.  I don't think that Szeth made the easy choices. In fact, I feel that we've been shown the exact opposite in the books - Szeth hates himself for what he has done, and at the end of WoR he's pretty much on the brink of insanity. As Szeth himself says in his conversation with Nalan, he has destroyed himself.

 

Yet Szeth followed the Shinovar tradition - Shinovar law - because that's what he believed was the right and honorable thing to do.

 

If we are defining morals as what a person believes is right (I was introduced to this definition by moogle, over here http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/17226-theory-to-explain-darknesss-actions/page-3), then Szeth's moral fiber probably surpasses that of anyone who we've seen so far. 

 

Limiting my response, in part to keep this from becoming a Szeth thread.  Basically, we see from Szeth's PoV that he knows what he is doing is evil and wrong, but he that doesn't stop him.  He breaks the law (murder is against the law in, at least, Alethkar, Jah Keved, and that one nation Lift is in whose name I can never remember, but that never stops him) of other nations rather than breaking the one of his own.  There is a certain strength in that, but Szeth also very much does not seem to think that what he is doing is right and/or honorable, and so it can hardly be seen as moral.  He is the crying assassin, who weeps as he slays his victims.  He is the Assassin in White, who has instilled such dread in some nations that entire governments shut down. And he hates himself for what he's done.

 

I don't see how you can hate yourself for your actions and still see them as right, just, honorable, or moral.  Sure, sometimes you only have the choice between two bad options--but, usually in those cases you don't murder hundreds just to avoid breaking a law or tradition.  The hard choice would have been for Szeth to do the right thing--not to keep to just upholding one law of the Shin over everything else.  Hell, after the first fight with Kaladin, he even had sufficient proof or evidence of vindication, but he chose to believe Mr T's lie (Szeth's mental state notwithstanding, that was still the easy choice, to just go with what someone else tells him, rather than thinking for himself).

 

Compared with this, Elhokar is very much a right honorable chap.  Even though he acts without thinking, that can be fixed by teaching him how to think.  He eventually seems to see that he's made mistakes, and by the end of WoR it's clear (to me) that he's willing to actually change.  Szeth, on the other hand, knows exactly how terrible each thing he is doing--but does it anyway, just because it's easier than going against what his people said. 

 

 

As I said, not all orders are honorable, but they certainly all are inspirational, in their own personal way. Lightweavers have little honor in them, so it is logical they wouldn't care much about it. Bondsmith and Skybreakers have a lot of honor, so they care a lot about it.

I disagree, and think you have it backwards.  By definition, all Orders will be Honorable, right?  They all have spren that are at least partly from Honor right? (even if some are mixed Cultivation).  But they don't have to be inspirational, even though I very much think that that was a great part of the traditional role of Radiants.

 

I also very much disagree that Lightweavers have little honor in them.  This thought seems to be because lying and deception is okay to them, which is understandable; but look at the specific actions they take.  Even while lying, Shallan isn't needlessly placing others in harm's way.  She acts in ways that could endanger herself to help protect others (such as the woman whose identity she stole to sneak into Amaram's room), and keeps her word when given (to the deserters) even though she had no reason to do so.  Hell, she even keeps her word to Sebariel about earning every one of the spheres she's charging him based on an agreement that she made up on the spot.

 

The Order I struggle to see Honor in the most is the Skybreakers, especially if their Ideal really is "I will obey the law above all else."  If the law is dishonorable, then upholding it would be, too, right?  And yet, would they be honorable for upholding the law if they were sworn to do so?  It's all a bit maddening.

Edited October 6, 2014 by kaellok

[Moogle]

I don't see how you can hate yourself for your actions and still see them as right, just, honorable, or moral.  Sure, sometimes you only have the choice between two bad options--but, usually in those cases you don't murder hundreds just to avoid breaking a law or tradition.  The hard choice would have been for Szeth to do the right thing--not to keep to just upholding one law of the Shin over everything else.  Hell, after the first fight with Kaladin, he even had sufficient proof or evidence of vindication, but he chose to believe Mr T's lie (Szeth's mental state notwithstanding, that was still the easy choice, to just go with what someone else tells him, rather than thinking for himself).

 

I get the feeling this is slightly off-topic, but I'd use Taravangian as an example of someone hating themself but acting as "rightly" as he can. The actions he takes makes him think of himself as a "monster", but ultimately he's doing everything he is to save the world - how could he just stand around and let everything he knows be destroyed?

 

Szeth is a more questionable example. I won't bother defending him, except to say that Shin culture is more than a little cultish and he was more than a little brainwashed and abused. Everything he's been raised to believe has forced him into following his honor, which means obeying his masters. If we brought, say, a person from the Dark Ages, they wouldn't spontaneously develop our modern morals. He's still a horrible person by our standards, but it's hardly his fault. If his leaders didn't lie to him and abuse him, he'd be a great person in fact.

 

You seem to be arguing a lot that people's morality should be based on how they feel (ie. Szeth feels bad about killing people, so he should stop). But this is precisely what many moral codes are against: you're supposed to ignore how you feel in many cases. If you're angry, you're supposed to prevent yourself from lashing out and attacking people. If you're sad and hate doing something, you're supposed to do it anyways because that's your duty in Shin culture.

 

The Order I struggle to see Honor in the most is the Skybreakers, especially if their Ideal really is "I will obey the law above all else."  If the law is dishonorable, then upholding it would be, too, right?  And yet, would they be honorable for upholding the law if they were sworn to do so?  It's all a bit maddening.

 

What does it mean for a law to be "dishonorable"? I suspect this is the part where your thoughts would differ from a typical Skybreaker.

[Twenty@20 he/him]

The question of Szeth's morality is a fascinating one. I heartily thank Mr. Sanderson for creating Szeth. In discussing whether Szeth's action are morally right or wrong, it is us who are being challenged to rise above viewing people in superficial ways.

Regarding Szeth we have to remember that he comes from a non- military society, where most probably violence is abhored and soldiers r looked down upon. Now in such a society he punished for a crime, which I will not bring into discussion here, and how. He is turned into a soldier and made a Truthless. Truthless, from what I understood, is another way of saying that you no longer have free will. So Szeth's will is taken away but his conscience is mostly intact(he knows he is wrong to go about murdering people). And to top it all he is turned into a weapon of mass destruction(but only a weapon since he has no free will) with the idea that the more he is forced to kill, the more he suffers. As a side note, I wonder how the Shin developed such a method of punishment.

Szeth on his part, tries not disclosed the fact that he has a shardblade to his owners but he is discovered. So his killings begin. He walks on sacred stone. He has no way out for he has been bound to obey. He has to blaspheme against his society's culture because not to do so means he is rejecting his society's law. Such tragic ironies.

Let me also point out Szeth with his shardblade could at anytime decided to go on his own forsaking his Truthless state if only to satisfy his conscience. That he choose not to do so at great cost of his conscience and his sanity, to follow the laws of a society which had abandoned him, points only to his sense of honour, however misplaced it might be from someone else's perspective.

As a tangent, I would like to point out that in people in our world have committed suicide in the name of honour and even killed for it. While it is easy to say that these people have a misguided sense of honor, for these people honor and morality have different connotations shaped by their society. Sounds familiar to Szeth? While all cultures have a basic policy of not murdering others,Szeth's example only shows other compulsions trump this basic and ideally inviolable principle.

Only one problem that I have with the story line is the redemption of Szeth by Nalan which rewards him for following the law while papering over the fact that he killed people. This seems to hint at the subtle moral degradation of Nalan and is in line with his actions elsewhere

Over the course of the two books it is clear that the concept of Honor has being degraded in Roshar and Szeth is an example of that. Perhaps Odium has a role in that..

That's it. Sorry for the long rambling post. Long time lurker. Feel free to comment on my thoughts. P.S. I will be busy till the end of next month, so please don't mind if I reply infrequently..

Edited October 6, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Moogle]

Only one problem that I have with the story line is the redemption of Szeth by Nalan which rewards him for following the law while papering over the fact that he killed people. This seems to hint at the subtle moral degradation of Nalan and is in line with his actions elsewhere

Over the course of the two books it is clear that the concept of Honor has being degraded in Roshar and Szeth is an example of that. Perhaps Odium has a role in that..

That's it. Sorry for the long rambling post. Long time lurker. Feel free to comment on my thoughts. P.S. I will be busy till the end of next month, so please don't mind if I reply infrequently..

 

Your post was well-thought out. I do have issue with this particular part, though.

 

If Szeth has, as you say, been punished by having his free will removed, then he is simply a weapon. He has to do what he is told. In that regard, Nalan may be placing all blame for the murders at Szeth's master's feet.  My line of thinking here is that you don't jail a sword used to kill someone, so why would you jail Szeth?

 

(Note that I do still find Szeth repugnant in more than a few ways. He's still interesting, though, and I'm definitely warming up to him after analyzing his fight scenes and seeing how he fights intelligently. I'm eager to see what he does when he doesn't have a bloodthirsty master. All signs point towards him being a pretty okay guy when he doesn't have to follow horrible orders.)

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Your post was well-thought out. I do have issue with this particular part, though.

 

If Szeth has, as you say, been punished by having his free will removed, then he is simply a weapon. He has to do what he is told. In that regard, Nalan may be placing all blame for the murders at Szeth's master's feet.  My line of thinking here is that you don't jail a sword used to kill someone, so why would you jail Szeth?

 

(Note that I do still find Szeth repugnant in more than a few ways. He's still interesting, though, and I'm definitely warming up to him after analyzing his fight scenes and seeing how he fights intelligently. I'm eager to see what he does when he doesn't have a bloodthirsty master. All signs point towards him being a pretty okay guy when he doesn't have to follow horrible orders.)

 

He is indeed a fascinating character. 

 

I would agree with you both a little bit about Szeth's nature. His free will was removed insofar as he is deemed Truthless, the moment that it is revealed that he should not have been punished in such a way however (Kaladin's surgebinding), Szeth's mind snaps, because the reality is that he isn't Truthless despite being named so by Shin society. If he is not Truthless, then he is in fact guilty of his crimes. The Shin leadership are culpable as well, just as cult leader would be charged with the murders committed by his/her followers (Manson I'm looking at you), but they didn't actually commit the crimes that Szeth does. 

 

Another interesting question about culpability that we see regarding Szeth, he is very obviously mad/crazy/out of his gourd in his scene with Taravangian as well as the final battles with Dalinar and the Alethi. Is he responsible for his crimes while mad? Not fit to stand trial (by anyone's standards)?

 

He seems to regain sanity at the end, and allows Kaladin to kill him, to end his own threat and his mental suffering. Nalan's "saving" of Szeth just seems cruel at this point in his narrative. 

[Moogle]

He seems to regain sanity at the end, and allows Kaladin to kill him, to end his own threat and his mental suffering. Nalan's "saving" of Szeth just seems cruel at this point in his narrative. 

 

It might be cruel in a way, but Nalan does ask Szeth if he'd prefer to be dead. Szeth originally warned his people about the Voidbringers, so it makes sense he'd want to help against them. I'm not sure if Szeth wants revenge on the Shin leadership (he hates killing, so I imagine not?). I think bringing Szeth back could relieve Szeth's guilt in some way, so perhaps it's more of a kindness than a cruelty. We'll just have to see in Stones Unhallowed.

[Guest]

I disagree, and think you have it backwards.  By definition, all Orders will be Honorable, right?  They all have spren that are at least partly from Honor right? (even if some are mixed Cultivation).  But they don't have to be inspirational, even though I very much think that that was a great part of the traditional role of Radiants.

 

I also very much disagree that Lightweavers have little honor in them.  This thought seems to be because lying and deception is okay to them, which is understandable; but look at the specific actions they take.  Even while lying, Shallan isn't needlessly placing others in harm's way.  She acts in ways that could endanger herself to help protect others (such as the woman whose identity she stole to sneak into Amaram's room), and keeps her word when given (to the deserters) even though she had no reason to do so.  Hell, she even keeps her word to Sebariel about earning every one of the spheres she's charging him based on an agreement that she made up on the spot.

 

The Order I struggle to see Honor in the most is the Skybreakers, especially if their Ideal really is "I will obey the law above all else."  If the law is dishonorable, then upholding it would be, too, right?  And yet, would they be honorable for upholding the law if they were sworn to do so?  It's all a bit maddening.

 

Actually, I do not think that all orders are honorable... We know some orders are nearly pure honor (Bondsmith for example). In counterpart, some orders must be nearly pure cultivation (Truthwatchers, probably).

 

I said Lightweavers are overly concerned with honor (which did not mean they are honorless, just not as regarding towards it as WIndrunners) mostly because, as you say, they do not shy from lying or deceiving to achieve their ends. They also do not condemn murder, if necessary, much like the Elsecaller, another order with a small honor percentage.

 

I believe the Skybreakers are very honorable, for all matters that concerns the law. However, there influence is limited to written law and I think you will agree with me that laws can be twisted or unjust. Laws can be made to condemn the innocent and protect the guilty. The Alethki law is a very good example of this as it allows a known traitor and a criminal such as Sadeas single-handily responsible for the slaughter of 6000 Kohlin soldiers as well as the waste of thousands of bridgemen lifes to walk free without any consequences. Skybreakers would never be able to do anything about the Sadeas of the world as the laws protect them... but the Sadeas of the world still needs to be taken down... Windrunners, Bondsmiths cannot do anything about the Sadeas of the world as their honor code forbids it.

 

This is where I believe other orders come into play. I see the Radiants as a puzzle with each order having its place and yeah, there must be an order to deal with moral issues.

[sun tzaro]

 

I'm not sure if Szeth wants revenge on the Shin leadership (he hates killing, so I imagine not?). 

 

Remember, Szeth has been twisted beyond imagining. Towards the end of WoR, he grows progressively more hateful towards the people he kills. In the confrontation on the Shattered plains, after dispatching Dalinar, Szeth was about to turn on Adolin. 

 

He says something along the lines of "What's one more death? I'll kill you on my own time." (I'd love to actually have an exact quote here, but I've lent out my copy of WoR.   )

 

Up to that point, Szeth had hated killing. He did kill indiscriminately, but only in accordance with his orders. What I got out of Szeth's dialogue in that scene was that if Szeth had actually killed Adolin, he would not absolved of that murder by his status as Truthless. 

 

 

Which means that Szeth was this close to not becoming a Skybreaker. 

 

Nalan believes Szeth is the ideal Skybreaker candidate because he follows the customs and laws of his people to the letter. If Szeth had killed Adolin, after his order of killing Dalinar was fulfilled (at that point, Dalinar's death was all but certain - he had been lashed into the sky and Kaladin had yet to arrive), Nalan would not have seen him as fit to join their ranks. 

 

Szeth is incredibly mentally unbalanced at the end of WoR. Considering how he begins blaming his victims for incompetence, and how he was about to murder of his own volition, I would not be surprised if Szeth is feeling hatred, anger, and a lust for revenge against the Shin masters who twisted him beyond comprehension..

 

I suspect that a large part of Stones Unhallowed will deal with Szeth learning to master his emotions under the tutelage of Mr. Stone cold. 

 

And, just to respond to a point on the previous page -  

 

 

Could Elhokar change in the next 10 to 40 years to truly become Radiant worthy? Yes, of course. Everyone deserves the chance to change. However, I think you are missing the main point of my argumentation... I never said Elhokar could never become this person, I am saying he is NOT this person, right now which is why I just cannot fathom why an order related spren would show any interest in him as he is NOW. Dalinar would have NEVER attracted a spren 10 years ago. He had to change to mirror the Bondsmiths ideals to do so, the same way Elhokar will have to change to mirror one of the order's ideals to attract a spren. It has not happened yet. Elhokar has not changed yet. The sprens he is seeing must thus be something else then Radiant related.

 

I see; I was indeed misunderstanding your point. Perhaps you're right, and the Spren he sees are not Radiant related. 

 

Alternatively, we do know the Elkohar's wife is mad, and that Gavilar had more than a few disturbing dealings and hidden plots. We don't know much about Elkohar; he might indeed have secrets of own. Enough to warrant a visit from the Cryptics? Maybe, maybe not.

Edited October 8, 2014 by sun tzaro