Spiritual Modifications and Genetics

[Trusk'our he/him]

It's interesting to see that even temporary changes made to the Spiritweb can leave permanent changes to the Spiritwebs of a person's offspring.

For example, we see this in the Koloss-blooded, where they retain a portion of their Koloss parent's strength, toughness, and altered genetic makeup.

Listeners and Singers are capable of doing something similar with humans, being able to produce half human and half Listener/Singer children.

Spoiler

White Sand vol.1 release party - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Questioner

I really like how you have different fingernails. *inaudible* Because I barely noticed, rereading for Stormlight, you've got the He--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Herdazians. 

Questioner

Herdazians.

Brandon Sanderson

That's because Herdazians are-- have Parshendi blood. Parshmen blood. They're one of the halv-- they're one of the mixed breeds. Horneaters *inaudible* too.

Questioner

Horneaters, um.. they're not *inaudible* with Parshendi are they?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they are.

Questioner

That's where they get the red hair then.

Brandon Sanderson

That's where they get the red hair. And they actually can-- they call them Horneaters because they eat shell, and they actually can metabolize it which humans can't. Yeah. They've actually got, actually-- they've actually got different teeth than humans have.

Spoiler

General Reddit 2015 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

HorseCannon

I didn't realize Horneaters had parshmen blood, didn't even realize that was possible. How closely are humans and parshmen related, do they have a common ancestor? Or is one an artificially created version of the other?

Brandon Sanderson

There was intermixing long ago. Horneaters and Herdazians are both a result. (Signs of this are the stone carapace on Herdazian fingernails and the Horneater extra jaw pieces--in the back of the mouth--for breaking shells.)

Humans and parshmen don't have a common ancestor. And as a side note, both of these strains of humanoids predate the ascension of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium.

ccstat

Are there Aimian-Human hybrids as well? (Either type of Aimian) If so, are the Thaylen people one of these?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Blightsong

*via private message*

Some of us believe that you are saying that humans and listeners existed pre-Shattering while some of us believe that you are saying that Horneaters and Herdazians existed pre-Shattering (you have mentioned that humans had been on Roshar since before the Shattering recently). What were you trying to say here?

Brandon Sanderson

Humans (other than those on Yolen) existed pre-Shattering, as did parshmen.

Additionally, a Listener's or a Singer's Form is very similar to what Hemalurgy does, but in a more natural fashion.

Spoiler

Berlin signing - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Questioner

What happens in cosmere terms with Parshendi? Like, they Connect to a spren. And then, by it do they change their Identity, or what?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Basically what's happening is, that symbiosis has a similar effect to Hemalurgy, but not so nasty. And it's being reflected there in the Physical Realm.

I think, therefore, that if a Listener or Singer had a different Form "equipped" that their offspring with a human would have effects from that Form, similar to how different Hemalurgic constructs should have different effects on their offspring. This could be part of why Horneaters and Herdazians have such different ethnicities (though it could also be due to more mundane reasons, such as being separate long enough to make distinct changes to their gene pools).

As a side note, another interesting way that changes to the Spiritweb have been seen effecting offspring is due to Lighteyes; their Radiant ancestors had eyes that were only temporarily lightened, yet their children have a more permanent eye color change.

[Walter The Moral]

I don't think many Singers would choose to have children outside of Mateform though, as they wouldn't have any want to when not in Mateform.

[bmcclure7]

18 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

It's interesting to see that even temporary changes made to the Spiritweb can leave permanent changes to the Spiritwebs of a person's offspring.

For example, we see this in the Koloss-blooded, where they retain a portion of their Koloss parent's strength, toughness, and altered genetic makeup.

Listeners and Singers are capable of doing something similar with humans, being able to produce half human and half Listener/Singer children.

  Reveal hidden contents

White Sand vol.1 release party - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Questioner

I really like how you have different fingernails. *inaudible* Because I barely noticed, rereading for Stormlight, you've got the He--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Herdazians. 

Questioner

Herdazians.

Brandon Sanderson

That's because Herdazians are-- have Parshendi blood. Parshmen blood. They're one of the halv-- they're one of the mixed breeds. Horneaters *inaudible* too.

Questioner

Horneaters, um.. they're not *inaudible* with Parshendi are they?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they are.

Questioner

That's where they get the red hair then.

Brandon Sanderson

That's where they get the red hair. And they actually can-- they call them Horneaters because they eat shell, and they actually can metabolize it which humans can't. Yeah. They've actually got, actually-- they've actually got different teeth than humans have.

  Reveal hidden contents

General Reddit 2015 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

HorseCannon

I didn't realize Horneaters had parshmen blood, didn't even realize that was possible. How closely are humans and parshmen related, do they have a common ancestor? Or is one an artificially created version of the other?

Brandon Sanderson

There was intermixing long ago. Horneaters and Herdazians are both a result. (Signs of this are the stone carapace on Herdazian fingernails and the Horneater extra jaw pieces--in the back of the mouth--for breaking shells.)

Humans and parshmen don't have a common ancestor. And as a side note, both of these strains of humanoids predate the ascension of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium.

ccstat

Are there Aimian-Human hybrids as well? (Either type of Aimian) If so, are the Thaylen people one of these?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Blightsong

*via private message*

Some of us believe that you are saying that humans and listeners existed pre-Shattering while some of us believe that you are saying that Horneaters and Herdazians existed pre-Shattering (you have mentioned that humans had been on Roshar since before the Shattering recently). What were you trying to say here?

Brandon Sanderson

Humans (other than those on Yolen) existed pre-Shattering, as did parshmen.

Additionally, a Listener's or a Singer's Form is very similar to what Hemalurgy does, but in a more natural fashion.

  Reveal hidden contents

Berlin signing - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Questioner

What happens in cosmere terms with Parshendi? Like, they Connect to a spren. And then, by it do they change their Identity, or what?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Basically what's happening is, that symbiosis has a similar effect to Hemalurgy, but not so nasty. And it's being reflected there in the Physical Realm.

I think, therefore, that if a Listener or Singer had a different Form "equipped" that their offspring with a human would have effects from that Form, similar to how different Hemalurgic constructs should have different effects on their offspring. This could be part of why Horneaters and Herdazians have such different ethnicities (though it could also be due to more mundane reasons, such as being separate long enough to make distinct changes to their gene pools).

As a side note, another interesting way that changes to the Spiritweb have been seen effecting offspring is due to Lighteyes; their Radiant ancestors had eyes that were only temporarily lightened, yet their children have a more permanent eye color change.

Impossible only mate for and slave form can breed all others are infertile so far at least.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Impossible only mate for and slave form can breed all others are infertile so far at least.  

Mateform is specialized for procreation, but it and Slaveform do not seem to be the only Forms capable of doing so.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3400

RenegadeShroom

You said earlier that Parshendi are primarily asexual, does that extend to all Listeners -- parshmen, and those descended from Listeners, like Horneaters and Herdazians -- or is it just the Parshendi?

Brandon Sanderson

Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform. Horneaters and Herdazians are not, as a rule, though there are higher instances of asexuality among them.

uchoo786

I was actually wondering about how Parshmen would reproduce if they are only in slaveform? I thought one had to be in mateform in order to reproduce?

Also, could Horneaters and Herdazians change forms as well?

Brandon Sanderson

For the first, mateform is not the only form capable of producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. The forms are specializations.

For the second, RAFO.

 

[bmcclure7]

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Mateform is specialized for procreation, but it and Slaveform do not seem to be the only Forms capable of doing so.

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3400

RenegadeShroom

You said earlier that Parshendi are primarily asexual, does that extend to all Listeners -- parshmen, and those descended from Listeners, like Horneaters and Herdazians -- or is it just the Parshendi?

Brandon Sanderson

Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform. Horneaters and Herdazians are not, as a rule, though there are higher instances of asexuality among them.

uchoo786

I was actually wondering about how Parshmen would reproduce if they are only in slaveform? I thought one had to be in mateform in order to reproduce?

Also, could Horneaters and Herdazians change forms as well?

Brandon Sanderson

For the first, mateform is not the only form capable of producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. The forms are specializations.

For the second, RAFO.

 

 They must be rare indeed as so far every form we have seen is specifically said to be infertile.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

 They must be rare indeed as so far every form we have seen is specifically said to be infertile.  

I do not recall that ever having been stated, only that those Forms do not provide a sex drive for the Singers/Listeners, meaning they don't use those Forms to procreate.

[bmcclure7]

9 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I do not recall that ever having been stated, only that those Forms do not provide a sex drive for the Singers/Listeners, meaning they don't use those Forms to procreate.

I pretty sure Brandon confirmed that malen and femalen were both infertile as well as have no sex drive. How ever I don't really see a difference either way.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I pretty sure Brandon confirmed that malen and femalen were both infertile as well as have no sex drive. How ever I don't really see a difference either way.  

The earlier WoB I provided earlier seems to conflict with this idea.

I would need more evidence to be convinced otherwise, but I don't see any point in arguing further if neither of us can find any more WoBs on the subject.

[alder24]

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I pretty sure Brandon confirmed that malen and femalen were both infertile as well as have no sex drive. How ever I don't really see a difference either way.  

Malen and femalen are said to be asexual but I can't find anything about them being infertile. The WoB @Trusk'our provided earlier is strong evidence that not only mateform is capable of reproduction, others simply don't have any urge to it.

Spoiler

ladyknightradiant

Have we seen all four of the genders for the Parshendi?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. 

ladyknightradiant

So it's more than just malen and femalen?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, male and female. So, basically, in my original notes I was trying to decide if I should call them [something else?] but they-- eventually we ended up-- It's basically, they have a male neuter and female neuter, and then a male and a female. So yes, there are four genders. [...] And, if you can't tell, the malen and femalen are both asexual, completely.

Footnote: Of note, but irrelevant to this entry, is that the questioner, ladyknightradiant, is the one who put together the Where's My Chull? children's book for Brandon. You can find the full illustrations here.
Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

 

[bmcclure7]

On 12/4/2023 at 9:58 AM, alder24 said:

Malen and femalen are said to be asexual but I can't find anything about them being infertile. The WoB @Trusk'our provided earlier is strong evidence that not only mateform is capable of reproduction, others simply don't have any urge to it.

  Hide contents

ladyknightradiant

Have we seen all four of the genders for the Parshendi?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. 

ladyknightradiant

So it's more than just malen and femalen?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, male and female. So, basically, in my original notes I was trying to decide if I should call them [something else?] but they-- eventually we ended up-- It's basically, they have a male neuter and female neuter, and then a male and a female. So yes, there are four genders. [...] And, if you can't tell, the malen and femalen are both asexual, completely.

Footnote: Of note, but irrelevant to this entry, is that the questioner, ladyknightradiant, is the one who put together the Where's My Chull? children's book for Brandon. You can find the full illustrations here.
Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

 

 

neu·ter

/ˈno͞odər/

 

verb

past tense: neutered; past participle: neutered

1. castrate or spay (a domestic animal).

 

 

 

 That sounds like They're infertile. 

 

 He also says that they're "completely" asexual that sounds like more than just not having a sex drive.

 Honestly that was the wob I was thinking of when he called them infertile it seems pretty clear to me. 

[alder24]

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

eu·ter

/ˈno͞odər/

verb

past tense: neutered; past participle: neutered

1. castrate or spay (a domestic animal).

    

 That sounds like They're infertile. 

 He also says that they're "completely" asexual that sounds like more than just not having a sex drive.

 Honestly that was the wob I was thinking of when he called them infertile it seems pretty clear to me. 

Once again this, more recent WoB:

Spoiler

RenegadeShroom

You said earlier that Parshendi are primarily asexual, does that extend to all Listeners -- parshmen, and those descended from Listeners, like Horneaters and Herdazians -- or is it just the Parshendi?

Brandon Sanderson

Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform. Horneaters and Herdazians are not, as a rule, though there are higher instances of asexuality among them.

uchoo786

I was actually wondering about how Parshmen would reproduce if they are only in slaveform? I thought one had to be in mateform in order to reproduce?

Also, could Horneaters and Herdazians change forms as well?

Brandon Sanderson

For the first, mateform is not the only form capable of producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. The forms are specializations.

For the second, RAFO.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 19, 2015)

You're wrong.

Edited December 6, 2023 by alder24

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Once again this, more recent WoB:

  Hide contents

RenegadeShroom

You said earlier that Parshendi are primarily asexual, does that extend to all Listeners -- parshmen, and those descended from Listeners, like Horneaters and Herdazians -- or is it just the Parshendi?

Brandon Sanderson

Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform. Horneaters and Herdazians are not, as a rule, though there are higher instances of asexuality among them.

uchoo786

I was actually wondering about how Parshmen would reproduce if they are only in slaveform? I thought one had to be in mateform in order to reproduce?

Also, could Horneaters and Herdazians change forms as well?

Brandon Sanderson

For the first, mateform is not the only form capable of producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. The forms are specializations.

For the second, RAFO.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 19, 2015)

You're wrong.

 How am I wrong?  All Brandon says is that mate form is not the only fertile  form.  Which should be obvious since slave form is fertile.   That doesn't mean that most forms are not infertile. 

 

 And even if If they were just asexual that accomplishes the same thing. Namely that they're not gonna use Most forms for breeding. 

[alder24]

19 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

How am I wrong?  All Brandon says is that mate form is not the only fertile  form.  Which should be obvious since slave form is fertile.   That doesn't mean that most forms are not infertile. 

And even if If they were just asexual that accomplishes the same thing. Namely that they're not gonna use Most forms for breeding. 

SEVERAL forms are not asexual, including Slaveform - not just Slaveform, several others as well.

Mateform is not the only form capable of reproduction any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. Literally every form is capable of swinging a sword - EVERY form can do that, but not every form wants to do that or is good at that. For those generally asexual forms that can reproduce this would mean low fertility, high chance of miscarriage, problems with child delivery and possibly no ability to breastfeed. Mateform is simply a specialized form that vastly reduces these problems. 

Being just asexual and being fully infertile are two completely different things. Infertility would debunk this theory, asexuality wouldn't. This WoB proves other forms are also fertile and there are more than 2 forms that aren't asexual. Even if you are asexual you can still want to have a child and engage in sexual reproduction. Singers don't change to Mateform just to see what will happen, they do that because they want to have a child. They had that feeling while being in a different form, they've changed because they wanted to maximize their chances. This theory is possible.

Yes, you are wrong.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

SEVERAL forms are not asexual, including Slaveform - not just Slaveform, several others as well.

Mateform is not the only form capable of reproduction any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. Literally every form is capable of swinging a sword - EVERY form can do that, but not every form wants to do that or is good at that. For those generally asexual forms that can reproduce this would mean low fertility, high chance of miscarriage, problems with child delivery and possibly no ability to breastfeed. Mateform is simply a specialized form that vastly reduces these problems. 

Being just asexual and being fully infertile are two completely different things. Infertility would debunk this theory, asexuality wouldn't. This WoB proves other forms are also fertile and there are more than 2 forms that aren't asexual. Even if you are asexual you can still want to have a child and engage in sexual reproduction. Singers don't change to Mateform just to see what will happen, they do that because they want to have a child. They had that feeling while being in a different form, they've changed because they wanted to maximize their chances. This theory is possible.

Yes, you are wrong.

 Nowhere does Brandon Sanderson say there are several others.  All he says is that there is at least one more other than mate form, Which is probably slave form (  Perhaps one or two more we haven't seen but I think that is unlikely).  All other forms other than slave form or mate form are malen and femalen which  Is neutered meaning infertile  You literally quote a wob saying this.

 

You are wrong. 

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Nowhere does Brandon Sanderson say there are several others.

Have you ever read that last WoB??? "Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform." Several, according to its dictionary definition, means “more than two but not many.” It's not just Mateform and Slaveform.

5 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

All other forms other than slave form or mate form are malen and femalen which  Is neutered meaning infertile  You literally quote a wob saying this.

Again, in the last WoB I provided (the other WoB, not the "neutered" one), which was earlier quoted by @Trusk'our, Brandon said that "Mateform is not the only form capable of [re]producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword." It's a more recent WoB - from 2015, the one mentioning "neutered" is from 2014. It directly proves that many, if not all forms are capable of reproduction, in the same way all forms are capable of swinging a sword. 

If you want to prove someone's wrong, start reading WoBs and arguments they provide. Interestingly, the second meaning of the word "neuter" is "make ineffective" - "disarmament negotiations that will neuter their military power." This fits well with the last WoB - other forms are ineffective in reproduction compared to Mateform, just like other forms are ineffective in swinging a sword compared to Warform. Why haven't you included this definition in your post as well?

[MerlinArcane]

Before we get deeply involved into an argument, does this post have a point to it apart from spreading useful information? An overarching idea or theory? 

[bmcclure7]

51 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Have you ever read that last WoB??? "Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform." Several, according to its dictionary definition, means “more than two but not many.” It's not just Mateform and Slaveform.

Again, in the last WoB I provided (the other WoB, not the "neutered" one), which was earlier quoted by @Trusk'our, Brandon said that "Mateform is not the only form capable of [re]producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword." It's a more recent WoB - from 2015, the one mentioning "neutered" is from 2014. It directly proves that many, if not all forms are capable of reproduction, in the same way all forms are capable of swinging a sword. 

If you want to prove someone's wrong, start reading WoBs and arguments they provide. Interestingly, the second meaning of the word "neuter" is "make ineffective" - "disarmament negotiations that will neuter their military power." This fits well with the last WoB - other forms are ineffective in reproduction compared to Mateform, just like other forms are ineffective in swinging a sword compared to Warform. Why haven't you included this definition in your post as well?

 Your own words are self-contradictory.

 

to be ineffected at reproducing is to be Infertile.  Just like a disarmament treaty  Makes it impossible to raise an army. 

To raise an army you need to arm it For that you need weapons without weapons your army is neutered. 

 

Without fertility Your ability to reproduce is neutered.  Hence the reason reference to reproduction means infertility. 

 

 Most forms are malen and femalen.   These forms are neutered and therefore  infertile. 

 

 I grant the waob seems to indicate that there are more than one form that can be used for reproduction but clearly they are in the extreme minority. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alder24]

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Your own words are self-contradictory.

to be ineffected at reproducing is to be Infertile.  Just like a disarmament treaty  Makes it impossible to raise an army. 

To raise an army you need to arm it For that you need weapons without weapons your army is neutered. 

Without fertility Your ability to reproduce is neutered.  Hence the reason reference to reproduction means infertility. 

Most forms are malen and femalen.   These forms are neutered and therefore  infertile. 

I grant the waob seems to indicate that there are more than one form that can be used for reproduction but clearly they are in the extreme minority. 

I see no further point to this argument and bringing up more definitions is useless. You are not willing to accept the most recent WoB on this topic, which straight up said: "Mateform is not the only form capable of [re]producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword."  This WoB clearly proves that the theory presented in this thread is possible. Let's end this here and agree to disagree.

[bmcclure7]

22 hours ago, alder24 said:

I see no further point to this argument and bringing up more definitions is useless. You are not willing to accept the most recent WoB on this topic, which straight up said: "Mateform is not the only form capable of [re]producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword."  This WoB clearly proves that the theory presented in this thread is possible. Let's end this here and agree to disagree.

All that proves is that some other form can reproduce.  Which I've allowed.  Its you who won't accept what Brandon said in very wob you're quoting.