The Honourblades came from Spren

[Khyrindor he/him]

So I was WoB hunting on Theoryland, and came upon this very nice one about Honourblades and Hoid:

 

 

LANCE ALVEIN

Can you confirm if the scene with Taln at the end of Way of Kings is entirely in Hoid's perspective? There was some discussion that it might not be, since Taln's honourblade was called a shardblade.

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

That entire scene is in Hoid's POV, and the reason for it being called a shardblade is because honourblades are shardblades.

 

 

Now, we know that the Shardblades come from Spren, but also that the Spren that are Splinters of Honour copied the Heralds to make the KR. This means that there were the Spren before the Spren... 

 

We also know (but I can't find the WoB) that there were Adonalsium Spren left over on Roshar. (If anyone puts it up on here, I'll add it.) My theory is that Honour used them to make the Honourblades. 

 

Also, the fact that Hoid makes the distinction with this makes it important and quite resolute. Anyway, pretty straightforward. Thoughts?

Edited August 31, 2014 by Khyrindor

[Terisen he/him]

Well, I wouldn't call it a "spren".  When Kaladin is holding the Honorblade and talking to Syl, she specifically says it's not a spren.

 

"What about this?" he asked, looking over the thin, silvery weapon.  An unornamented Blade.  That was supposed to be odd.  "It doesn't scream when I hold it."

"That's because it's not a spren," Syl said softly.

 

Now, granted, Syl doesn't know everything.  But she is able to identify other things as spren accurately (like the red spren nobody could initially see). 

 

However, I think if you look at the Blades in a larger scheme, you might be on to something.  They called Shardblades, after all.  They're made from spren, which are splinters.  Or, in other terms, "shards" of a shard.  Perhaps, as you say, the Honorblades are splinters of Adonalsium.  

 

My gut feel, however, is that the Honorblades are specific splinters of Honor and/or Cultivation, different from spren (like how other splinters aren't spren), but still parts of a shard.  Hence how the Honorblades are still Shardblades.  The whole "all squares are rectangles but all rectangles aren't squares" argument.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Terisen

[Khyrindor he/him]

Only dead Shardblades would scream, so that just means that the Adonalsium Spren aren't dead. Though you got me on Syl saying that. Mind you a God Spren does sound like something that mini Spren would like to copy. 

[Haradion Drogon]

Since Spen are splinters, perhaps Honourblades are not Spren - but Splinters?
I'd buy that they were Adonalsium Spren - arpart from the fact that They appear to confer Honour's magic system upon the holder, suggesting to me a closer relation to Honour than Adonalsium.

[Curiosity he/him]

No, I think that they're Splinter-sized chunks of Honor's Investiture that aren't alive. They were specifically made to confer Surgebinding powers upon their bearers.

[Shardlet he/him]

I agree with Curiosity.  I think Syl is reliable on this one.  I definitely think spren are splinters, but not all splinters are necessarily spren (even on Roshar).  Also, as a note, the Ado-spren WoB was from the Seattle signing in Sept. of 2013.

[Unite Them he/him]

The reason that each of the KR orders have two types of surge-binding is because one comes from Honor and one from Cultivation.  That is my thought. 

If I had to guess the Windrunner power of Adhesion is of Cultivation and Gravitation is of Honor.

[Yata he/him]

The reason that each of the KR orders have two types of surge-binding is because one comes from Honor and one from Cultivation.  That is my thought. 

If I had to guess the Windrunner power of Adhesion is of Cultivation and Gravitation is of Honor.

Your idea is very nice, but unlikely can't be true

But if this was true (and it can't) in your Specific example: Adesion come from Honor and Gravitation come from Cultivation 

Edited November 13, 2015 by Yata

[Voidus]

Well of the three known current types of Shardblades (Sprenblades, Honourblades and Nightblood) only one is confirmed to be a spren, one is specifically stated by a knowledgable character to not be a spren and one is at best technically similar to a spren.
So saying that Honourblades = Shardblades implies that Honourblades=Spren is not very well substantiated.
I also doubt that Honour could compel an AdonalsiumSpren to help him.

[Yata he/him]

Well of the three known current types of Shardblades (Sprenblades, Honourblades and Nightblood) only one is confirmed to be a spren, one is specifically stated by a knowledgable character to not be a spren and one is at best technically similar to a spren.

So saying that Honourblades = Shardblades implies that Honourblades=Spren is not very well substantiated.

I also doubt that Honour could compel an AdonalsiumSpren to help him.

I think in the same way.

At the moment I would say that the Honorblade may be very powerfull Fabrial but without know how the "Surge-Fabrial" works its useless to propose something like that.

[Rockbud he/him]

I'd roll with the idea of them being splinters, but the missing part is the sentience part which is either part of the definition, or confirmed to manifest if the splinters are left ungoverned. I can't remember the details exactly.

An interesting counter to this would be to say the Heralds represent more than just humans chosen to be Heralds and hold the blades. Maybe there's a deeper connection/design surrounding the blades and the Heralds than between a spren and radiant (a spren has its own sentience, and its suspected they can bond more than one radiant during their "life").

I'm sure someone has a more thought out theory surrounding the origin of he Heralds that works better...

[SirTraconus]

I'd roll with the idea of them being splinters, but the missing part is the sentience part which is either part of the definition, or confirmed to manifest if the splinters are left ungoverned. I can't remember the details exactly.

The divine breathes the Endowment gives the returned are splinters, and they aren't sentient. Maybe if a shard splinters on purpose the splinter doesn't gain sentience.

[Yata he/him]

The divine breathes the Endowment gives the returned are splinters, and they aren't sentient. Maybe if a shard splinters on purpose the splinter doesn't gain sentience.

But the Divine Breath is the only Splinter that aren't actually left without guidance.

 

Sometime ago, I propose in another Thread that the HonorBlade is always bond with their Herald and also if now other people are using them. The Herald may "re-call" them at will because the real bond is with the Heralds self. At that time other Sharder told me that can't be. But this may be the solution of the enigma.

The Honorblade may be Splinter of Honor gifted to the Herald and forever bonded with Them. It may be that the difference between a Human and an Herald is to be part of an "true-Honorblade-bond".

[TwelfthOfSnackTime he/him]

Could the Heralds be the Cognitive/Spiritual parts of the Splinter? Much like Atium or Lerisium was the physical part of the Shards the Honorblades could be the physical part of the Heralds. Perhaps that could be part of the reason why they are supposed to 'leave' in between desolations? 

[Rockbud he/him]

The divine breathes the Endowment gives the returned are splinters, and they aren't sentient. Maybe if a shard splinters on purpose the splinter doesn't gain sentience.

It depends how you look at it: you don't get divine breaths without the returned, so they might count as a sentient component to the splinter. Perhaps this is more like heralds and honor blades than radiants and spren.

[TwelfthOfSnackTime he/him]

It depends how you look at it: you don't get divine breaths without the returned, so they might count as a sentient component to the splinter. Perhaps this is more like heralds and honor blades than radiants and spren.

 

 

To look at it another way Divine Breaths are basically sentient Lifeless with varying commands determined by Endowment. The difference between them and regular Lifeless being basically the same as the difference between normal awakened objects and Nightblood.

In this way a Returned is a Sentient Splinter.

[Kurkistan he/him]

To look at it another way Divine Breaths are basically sentient Lifeless with varying commands determined by Endowment. The difference between them and regular Lifeless being basically the same as the difference between normal awakened objects and Nightblood.

In this way a Returned is a Sentient Splinter.

 

This is not the correct way to look at Returned, I'm afraid. Returned get their own souls back, only "augmented". Lifeless get someone else's investiture replacing their own.

[Khyrindor he/him]

Oh look, someone necro'd my thread.

 

I no longer think that the Honorblades came from Adonalsium, they were probably instead Honor and Cultivations first Investment for fighting Odium. Tanavast's Shadow mentions that the spren surprised him and copied the Herald's and their Shardblades. Also, the name Shardblade undoubtedly points to a Shard Investing, and Adonalsium was not a Shard.

 

Now, the Dawnshards however...Those I could believe were Adonalsium spren, but we have almost no information on them yet.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Khyrindor

[Yata he/him]

Now, the Dawnshards however...Those I could believe were Adonalsium spren, but we have almost no information on them yet.

I may aggre with this part but only if the Dawnshards are a subset of the Adonalsium spren, because i suppose that on Roshar may be also Adonalsium's flamespren.

I propose that the Dawnshards are a subset of the Adonalsium's spren. like the Radiant Spren are a subset of Honor&Cultivation's Spren.

 

But I had to remember you that also the name DawnSHARD point to Shard and Adonalsium was not a Shard.

[Khyrindor he/him]

But I had to remember you that also the name DawnSHARD point to Shard and Adonalsium was not a Shard.

 

Alright, good point there. Maybe it was an inworld name for something familiar, and therefore inaccurate? I don't know.

 

 

 

I may aggre with this part but only if the Dawnshards are a subset of the Adonalsium spren, because i suppose that on Roshar may be also Adonalsium's flamespren.

Why and how can you suppose that Flamespren are Adonalsium spren?

Edited November 14, 2015 by Khyrindor

[Yata he/him]

 Why and how can you suppose that Flamespren are Adonalsium spren?

Sorry I made myself unclear. I don't want to point on the Flamespren but about the "mindless spren" as a whole.

 

We know that the Listener bonded Spren before the Human arrive, this probably predate the arrive of Honor and Cultivation. Therefore with what Spren they bonded ? The Adonalsium Spren in my own opinion.

Now I dont' know if all the mindless spren aren't of Honor and Cultivation or there is some of Adonalsium and some of H&C.

To be honest i suppose that H&C give birth only to the radiant Spren but I can't prove it :S

Edited November 14, 2015 by Yata

[Rockbud he/him]

But I had to remember you that also the name DawnSHARD point to Shard and Adonalsium was not a Shard.

I like the idea Adonalsium spren were dawnshards, and maybe they're the reason shardblades are called as such: people long ago referenced non-radiant/non-heralds using shardblades (with perhaps non radiant strange powers) and said "well this guys call their blades shards, guess these sword the radiance have are shardblades too).

[Khyrindor he/him]

Yata, I'm more of the opinion that cuiscesh is Adonalsium spren, and the rest of them are just a natural part of the cognitive realm seeping into reality. Listeners can bond them to get forms, like I mentioned with creationsren on my other thread.

[Emerald101 he/him]

To give a little clarity to those speculating about Splinters: A Splinter has never been human.

[Khyrindor he/him]

Shards can directly splinter part of themselves in order to Invest. This is What Endowment does with the Diving Breaths, and what I'm presuming Honor did in creating the Honorblades.