Implications of the father machine

[trav]

Its rather silly that a single artificially created machine was able to annihilate a planets worth of souls in an instant.
We have millennia spanning battles of gods and yet none have come up with something similar?

I really dislike that Brandon made this theoretically possible WMD.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, trav said:

Its rather silly that a single artificially created machine was able to annihilate a planets worth of souls in an instant.
We have millennia spanning battles of gods and yet none have come up with something similar?

I really dislike that Brandon made this theoretically possible WMD.

Well the thing on Ashyn happened, which is still called "the burning planet", Dawnshards are out there in Cosmere, Nightblood is killing Vessels (Endowment was involved in his creation) - the Father Machine isn't that far off. And I doubt this can be replicated somewhere else because this was made possible directly by what Virtuosity did.

Spoiler

[...]

Argent

Interesting! Very interesting! That's what I was hoping you would answer. Because Awakening is such a cool term for Awakening an object, right!

One notable difference between the father machine and Nightblood other than them using different magic systems to be Awakened is that the Machine was able to somehow draw people's souls at a distance, which seems EXTREMELY broken to me.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. I had to let... This is going to be a pretty special circumstance for this book. But yes. It is pretty broken. You wouldn't want this to be... this could be very dangerous in the wrong hands. Don't expect this to be very commonly used in the Cosmere.

Argent

Was that a side effect of the magic system that was used to Awaken the machine, or was there something else going on?

Brandon Sanderson

This is a side effect of what Virtuosity did and the bit of Virtuosity in all the people allowing the Machine to have enough of a plausible Connection to them to draw upon them.

Argent

Ok. Interesting. I will think about this while I pass the ball back to Matt.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. This is me pushing just a little bit hard on the boundaries of what is possible. It is possible, but it it is pushing further than I normally would on the bounds of what that can do.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

Shards like Ruin and Odium are quite limited in what they can do. Ruin was constantly opposed by Preservation, every action of his was being stopped and he couldn't move without getting Atium back (which would allow him to destroy Scadrial). If he tried to make and use such a machine, Preservation's power would simply stop him.

Odium is on the other hand bound by Honor's chains, preventing him from even using his powers on most individuals. He is trapped on Braize and has limited access to Roshar. Moreover he doesn't want to destroy it or kill its people, he wants to rule over them and use them as his army. The Father machine wouldn't help him. Plus there is both Cultivation and remains of Honor on Roshar.

Autonomy also wants to control other planets, not to destroy them. If she wants to destroy, she has a highly advanced army of the Man of Gold and Red, ready to invade any planet of her choosing. She doesn't need such a machine.

 

But yes, the Father Machine is broken (which I like a bit).

[trav]

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

Dawnshards

Things capable of destroying god and planets.

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

Nightblood is killing Vessels

A Vessel is still just a human and Nightblood needs to be weilded. It does not act on its own like the Father Machine does. Nor does Nightblood have the ability to suck in souls from afar.

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

Shards like Ruin and Odium

The point is that it was not done by Shards. It was done by humans. Ruin could directly influence humans. Harmony does as well. It is very strange that entities that should be highly cosmere aware are not able to steer their followers into the right directions to create other forms of WMDs. The fight between Ruin and Preservation was mostly done by Scadrians.

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

he wants to rule over them and use them as his army

No need for that when he has access to machined that are easily able to kill the followers of his enemy shard.

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

Autonomy also wants to control other planets, not to destroy them

No one is talking about destroying the planet. The easiest way to bring a planet under control is to eradicate the inhabitants and repopulate it with people loyal to you.

 

In the WOB you posted Brandon even admits that things like that, even if they push the boundaries, are possible. She should have never gone there.

[alder24]

3 hours ago, trav said:

Things capable of destroying god and planets.

Yes, the Father Machine destroyed a planet too.

3 hours ago, trav said:

A Vessel is still just a human

Woah! No. A Vessel is not a human, they are no longer a human. A Vessel is the mind of a Shard - something much greater than a mere human.

Spoiler

Questioner

I wanted to ask, is the Shardbearer [Vessel] of Odium a human?

Brandon Sanderson

Not any longer.

Questioner

Ok, that's... I didn't expect that one.

Brandon Sanderson

 But what the answer to your question you really want to know is, was he originally human?

Questioner

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That's a good question! But I don't think he counts anymore.

Footnote: Rayse is the Vessel of Odium
Kraków signing (March 21, 2017)

 

3 hours ago, trav said:

Nightblood needs to be weilded. It does not act on its own like the Father Machine does.

Nightblood's ability to consume investiture doesn't require a person to wield him, it's because he is a sword and was Awakened in a specific way. Nightblood acts on his own - when sheathed. He is sentient, he thinks, he has a will of his own - unlike the Father Machine. 

But yes, I get your point. The Father Machine consumes at a distance unlike Nightblood. 

3 hours ago, trav said:

The point is that it was not done by Shards. It was done by humans.

Because Shards might not know it's possible or because they didn't want to do that. It's too much, nobody wants to destroy a whole planet like that. Ruin wants to do it himself, to enjoy this moment and have satisfaction, plus he needed people to find Atium - he couldn't do it himself. 

Moreover as per WoB it requires special circumstances, Virtuosity did that - it may mean she Splintered herself, leaving the world devoid of Shardic oversight (for the same reason Nightmares are so susceptible to perception, unlike Spren or even Seon) or she did something more during her Splintering or before. It's not just about Connection. The point being you can't do the same in other places, because the Father Machine worked due to special circumstances that existed on Komashi because of what Virtuosity did. There may be other places like Komashi, but the only one I can think of is Threnody (and there is a mysterious Evil who consumed the entire continent worth of people, which sounds similar to what the Father Machine did).

Additionally the Father Machine didn't kill everybody on the planet, a group of nomadic people survived it and recreated civilization.

Spoiler

ArgentSun

The way Painter transforms nightmares into other things is reminiscent of the way spren are affected by perception - only much more extreme. Is perception (and the way the world is set up) the only important factor here, or is Painter using Investiture too somehow?

Brandon Sanderson

What's going on here is not Painter using Investiture really. It's the fact that the nightmares have less control over them from another source. Spren have an oversight from Honor, Cultivation, and Odium, and this is kind of leaving them less at the whims of other people's perception. The nightmares do not have that. I'm not going to say they don't have it at all, but Painter is not using Investiture, but the nightmares are specifically more susceptible to what's going on. So for instance, a good way to answer this is if he went and did this for a spren he would not have the same level of power.

Secret Project #3 Reveal and Livestream (March 22, 2022)

 

3 hours ago, trav said:

Ruin could directly influence humans. Harmony does as well. It is very strange that entities that should be highly cosmere aware are not able to steer their followers into the right directions to create other forms of WMDs.

Autonomy did that... 

Being highly Cosmere aware doesn't mean being all knowing. Shards aren't omniscient. They don't know everything. Harmony didn't know what Trellium was at first, Harmony didn't know how Paalm hid from him, Harmony didn't know what Trellium inserted into Harmonium would do. He didn't even know what yield the Set bomb would have if detonated - he suggested it might have ignited the atmosphere, which is a ridiculous claim (a reference to the Trinity test). Just because something is possible doesn't mean Shards know about it. Both Nightblood and the Father Machine were created because of mistakes their creators made. 

3 hours ago, trav said:

No need for that when he has access to machined that are easily able to kill the followers of his enemy shard.

Again, that's not possible just like that. Secondly Odium didn't want to do that, he wanted all Honor/Cultivation followers to turn to him, to serve him and form his army - killing them is a waste of resources. Odium wants to be the only god of Cosmere, he wants to be worshiped, he wants to free people from other gods, not kill them all. Desolations weren't in his plan. 

Edit: What would Odium achieve by killing everyone on Roshar? Nothing. He would still be bound to the system by Honor, unable to kill Cultivation and wouldn't be able to change this anymore. He needs Honor's followers like Dalinar so they can release him from Roshar. 

3 hours ago, trav said:

No one is talking about destroying the planet. The easiest way to bring a planet under control is to eradicate the inhabitants and repopulate it with people loyal to you.

No. That's not bringing the planet under your control. Shards don't want to kill everybody on a planet. Repopulating a planet would require a massive amount of resources, draining the economy of other planets, not to mention it would take centuries - Scadrial still hasn't reached its pre-Catacendre levels of population, it's not even close to it. Nuking a planet into oblivion isn't any solution unless you want to get rid of it entirely - Autonomy wanted to destroy Scadrial because it threatened Taldain's position as the most technologically advanced force in Cosmere. She tried and failed.

3 hours ago, trav said:

In the WOB you posted Brandon even admits that things like that, even if they push the boundaries, are possible. She should have never gone there.

Once more, Shard's aren't omniscient, just because something is possible doesn't mean Shards know about it. 

 

I'm not trying to argue that the Father Machine is not broken, but that there are some other limiting factors, which is why it happened only once. A Bondsmith unchained is still more broken than the Father Machine. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by alder24

[Hatman he/him]

On 11/23/2023 at 10:10 AM, alder24 said:

Dawnshards are out there in Cosmere, Nightblood is killing Vessels (Endowment was involved in his creation) - the Father Machine isn't that far off.

I think earlier today I read a WOB from earlier this week saying that Nightblood is not a Dawnshard. 

[alder24]

13 minutes ago, Hatman said:

I think earlier today I read a WOB from earlier this week saying that Nightblood is not a Dawnshard. 

Yes, but that's not what I've said. 

[Hatman he/him]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, but that's not what I've said. 

I just want it to be clear since, while you did not say that explicitly, I thought you might be implying it. 

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

Nightblood acts on his own - when sheathed. He is sentient, he thinks, he has a will of his own - unlike the Father Machine. 

While the nightmares/shadows of the scholars claimed that the father machine had no desires, Hoid that they were slightly wrong. 

[trav]

On 11/24/2023 at 2:36 PM, alder24 said:

I'm not trying to argue that the Father Machine is not broken

The problem is that it is possible at all. Limitations or not.