First re-read of Stormlight Archive, Way of Kings, Part I

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

It is the Cognitive Aspect of the Sun and since it is a representation if the Idea of Sun it does not move.

Source? We don't know what the Sun in the Shadesmare is.

12 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Chapter 6

The only thing that sticks out to me from this chapter is the reference to Dalinar. The bridge crew tells Kal he's “the most honorable Shardbearer” and that he's sad to have “never broken his word”. Interesting that that's the reputation he has, 5 years after Gavilar's death. Nothing about being a drunk, or wild on the battlefield, or anything like that.

I agree, not being known for having the whole city burned to the ground, or being drunk all the time after that is a weird thing. But he was honorable even as Blackthorn - when he recruited Teleb he promised him not to pillage his hometown, which he kept even if Sadeas and their troops weren't so happy about it. Bridgecrews also have different priorities, for them it's important he doesn't use people to carry bridges.

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Source? We don't know what the Sun in the Shadesmare is.

Am I imagining things again? I could swear something like that was mentioned, but I'll have to wait to look it up tonight. (Mistborn Spoilers)

Spoiler

Off the top of my head, I thought it was mentioned in Secret History, but it might have been Kelsier's thoughts, not confirmed "fact."

And being one "thing" does not exempt multiple layers, such as it's possible connection to the Beyond.

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Treamayne

[alder24]

34 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Am I imagining things again? I could swear something like that was mentioned, but I'll have to wait to look it up tonight. (Mistborn Spoilers)

  Hide contents

Off the top of my head, I thought it was mentioned in Secret History, but it might have been Kelsier's thoughts, not confirmed "fact."

And being one "thing" does not exempt multiple layers, such as it's possible connection to the Beyond.

 

I'm quite sure it was never said that the CR sun is the PR sun - it wouldn't make sense, there is an area in CR where the PR sun is represented  and that's on the same plane that the ground in Shadesmare is. The sun is a physical, cosmic body, it would be like a moon or other planets - they all have a presence in CR (like a land or designated area), but they aren't hovering on the sky. 

Edit: The sun is SR, SH ch 2-1:

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“It’s not the world of the dead. It’s the world of the mind. Men—all things, truly—are like a ray of light. The floor is the Physical Realm, where that light pools. The sun is the Spiritual Realm, where it begins. This Realm, the Cognitive Realm, is the space between where that beam stretches.”

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by alder24

[Treamayne]

@FellowshipOfTheTables - sorry to derail your thread train

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

I'm quite sure it was never said that the CR sun is the PR sun - it wouldn't make sense, there is an area in CR where the PR sun is represented  and that's on the same plane that the ground in Shadesmare is. The sun is a physical, cosmic body, it would be like a moon or other planets - they all have a presence in CR (like a land or designated area), but they aren't hovering on the sky.

I didn't say it was the physical sun - I said I thought it was a cognitive representation of the sun (as in beings - human or other - expect a sun so their shadesmar represents the distant beyond as a sun-like unmoving point in the sky). I agree each star has it's own Shadesmar.

Quote

 Edit: The sun is SR, SH ch 2-1:

Quote

“It’s not the world of the dead. It’s the world of the mind. Men—all things, truly—are like a ray of light. The floor is the Physical Realm, where that light pools. The sun is the Spiritual Realm, where it begins. This Realm, the Cognitive Realm, is the space between where that beam stretches.”

 

No, that's a metaphor (you missed part of the quote):

Spoiler

Kelsier sighed. “Then why was he able to come to the world of the dead?”

“It’s not the world of the dead. It’s the world of the mind. Men—all things, truly—are like a ray of light. The floor is the Physical Realm, where that light pools. The sun is the Spiritual Realm, where it begins. This Realm, the Cognitive Realm, is the space between where that beam stretches.”

The metaphor barely made any sense to him. 

These are the parts I was thinking of:

Spoiler

MSH Ch 3-2

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The farther he penetrated onto this island, the darker it became. Ruin was covering up that tiny sun, and Kelsier began to miss even the faint glow that had permeated the phantom mists in the city. Soon he was traveling in what seemed like twilight.

MSH Ch 5-1

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He’d hoped to have the sun back once Ruin vanished from the sky, but after walking far enough out, he seemed to leave his world behind—and the sun with it. The sky here was nothing but empty blackness.

 

If the visible representation of the Sun in Shadesmar were actually the SR or Beyond, it should be visible everywhere in Shadesmar, not just at the planet, since the SR and Beyond also Connect everywhere, including the space between planets and solar systems. Kelsier sees the sun fade as he penetrates the "island" of Lake Luthadel's cognitive aspect, and it fades and is left behind once he enters the space between worlds at the edge of Scadrial's Shadesmar.

So, not stated, only implied and I'm sorry I overstated.

It may not matter, but please note that the Sun in Scadrial's Shadesmar looks different than the one in Roshar's Shadesmar (or at least the sky around them - ash-covered small distant sun on one, sun framed by very straight road-like clouds in the other). We can't tell if there is a size difference based on the descriptions given.

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I didn't say it was the physical sun - I said I thought it was a cognitive representation of the sun (as in beings - human or other - expect a sun so their shadesmar represents the distant beyond as a sun-like unmoving point in the sky). I agree each star has it's own Shadesmar.

I get that. What I wanted to say is that's not how celestial bodies manifest in CR. Those are places, stars too, they manifest as an area in CR. Moons don't appear as glowing orbs in the sky in CR, they are actual lands you can go to and visit - the more people think about them, the bigger those lands in CR are. 

Spoiler

[...]

Questioner

Okay. So the Cognitive Realm, in Shadesmar... It's kind of the... Any kind of sentient or cognitive life-- that's what is building Shadesmar? So like anything where there's blackness... is like... condensed or--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. Particularly if no one's thinking about it. If people are thinking about it - like, for instance, an island in the ocean that was scoured of all life and even bacteria would still manifest in Shadesmar on that planet because people are aware of it and things like this. But one on the other side of the planet, that no one ever knew about it, probably wouldn't.

Questioner

So that same island, if people just stopped thinking about it or like stopped being aware of its presence, would it...

Brandon Sanderson

It could slowly vanish, yes. And so-- But that's more of a thought experiment. You're never gonna have a planet that that happens to, you know cause-- but thought experiment wise, yes, that would eventually kind of get consumed by Shadesmar and vanish. The same thing would happen to a planet that you strip the atmosphere from--all the bacteria and life dies on it--you know, slowly going to vanish. But a moon will still manifest because people are thinking about it. It'll just not-- it won't-- it'll be hokey, it'll be weird--the moon will be. Like you might find a little patch that represents the moon. Something like that.

Questioner

That's interesting.

Brandon Sanderson

You're not gonna find the full landscape of the moon until people start visiting it. And it's gonna grow on Shadesmar.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

 

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

No, that's a metaphor (you missed part of the quote):

Thanks. I've missed that.

Still, I find this metaphor to be very close to reality - the land Kelsier was walking on is a reflection of the PR, what he is experiencing is CR, so why couldn't the sun be a representation of SR?

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

These are the parts I was thinking of:

  Reveal hidden contents

MSH Ch 3-2

Quote

The farther he penetrated onto this island, the darker it became. Ruin was covering up that tiny sun, and Kelsier began to miss even the faint glow that had permeated the phantom mists in the city. Soon he was traveling in what seemed like twilight.

MSH Ch 5-1

Quote

He’d hoped to have the sun back once Ruin vanished from the sky, but after walking far enough out, he seemed to leave his world behind—and the sun with it. The sky here was nothing but empty blackness.

 

If the visible representation of the Sun in Shadesmar were actually the SR or Beyond, it should be visible everywhere in Shadesmar, not just at the planet, since the SR and Beyond also Connect everywhere, including the space between planets and solar systems.

Fair, but maybe the sun appears in places highly invested, where Shards reside? 

 

What I wanted to say (before I misread the quote) is that we don't know what the sun in CR really is, we have no information about it and we cannot claim for sure that it is one thing excluding others. We don't know. We can only speculate.

[FellowshipOfTheTables]

Chapter 7

It’s interesting that, in her youth, Shallan’s father forbade her to spend time with Parshmen. Wonder if he knew something that most people didn’t??

I also find it interesting that there’s a mention that the Devotaries tried to reconcile with Jasnah. Like, I wonder what that was about. My impression was that they didn’t do anything in particular to make her mad, she just didn’t like them. So, what, they just tried to make her like them again?

I can’t remember, did we ever learn where Shallan’s father got a Soulcaster? IIRC, when she learns about the Ghostbloods, she assumes he got it from them, but I can’t remember if that was confirmed.

Hmm, those Palanaeum doors are super interesting. I don’t remember ever coming back to learn more about what this “chart” is on them. Part of the diagram, maybe?

Wow, that first flash of memories, including the mention of her shardblade. I got chills! 

I love the overall description of her drawing, it seems like Brandon had a lot of fun with it.

This description of Shallan using the souls of people as a medium makes me wonder if her drawing ability is partly connected with her Surgebinding. So much of Brandon’s magic has to do with the soul. She also mentions how important it is to get the eyes right - and people’s eyes are the one thing that a shardblade burns out, when separating the soul from the body. In fact, the eyes and their connection to the soul seem like a recurring theme throughout the series.

I really like her description of Shallan’s letter to Jasnah as “A lie built of truths”. Such a cool concept.
 

Chapter 8

It’s so crazy that they casually use money for light. I’d be constantly losing a fortune in doing exactly what Shallan did, leaving a bunch of spheres behind by accident.

Strange collection of maps in Shallan’s father’s study - I wonder what that’s about. Her brother later says he suspects that their father was making a play to become a high prince, but that doesn’t sound right to me.

“The Secret held 10 heartbeats away”....eep. I don’t know how I didn’t realize what a big deal this was the first time.

I’ll never not giggle at a line when Shallan and Yalb are talking; She tells him Jasnah refused to take her as a ward, and he asks “What’s wrong with her?”, to which Shallan replies “Chronic competence.” Such a great answer. I love the interactions between Shallan and Yalb in general; I hope they wind up meeting again. 
 

Edited November 30, 2023 by FellowshipOfTheTables

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Chapter 7

I also find it interesting that there’s a mention that the Devotaries tried to reconcile with Jasnah. Like, I wonder what that was about. My impression was that they didn’t do anything in particular to make her mad, she just didn’t like them. So, what, they just tried to make her like them again?

Remember "reconciliation" is Shallan's term, from rumors about Jasnah, and before she learns anything about her. Jasnah herself explains this later

Spoiler

WoK Ch 33:

Spoiler

“Has he asked you to try to steal my Soulcaster yet?”

Shallan felt a sudden spike of shock. Her hand went to the pouch at her waist. Did Jasnah know? No, Shallan told herself. No, listen to the question. “He didn’t.”

“Watch,” Jasnah said, opening a book. “He will eventually. I’ve experience with his type.”

WoK Ch 48:

Quote

“It’s called the Book of Endless Pages,” Jasnah said.

“Er, I’m pretty sure it’s not endless, Brightness.” She flipped to the last page and held it up.

Jasnah smiled. “It’s a metaphor, Shallan. Many years ago, someone dear to me made a very good attempt at converting me to Vorinism. This was the method he used.”

Shallan cocked her head.

“You search for truth,” Jasnah said, “but you also hold to your faith. There is much to admire in that. Seek out the Devotary of Sincerity. They are one of the very smallest of the devotaries, but this book is their guide.”

“One with blank pages?”

“Indeed. They worship the Almighty, but are guided by the belief that there are always more answers to be found. The book cannot be filled, as there is always something to learn. This devotary is a place where one is never penalized for questions, even those challenging Vorinism’s own tenets.”

 

Jasnah's experience with devoteries is that they either try to convert her or steal the Soulcaster from the heretic (or both).

3 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

I can’t remember, did we ever learn where Shallan’s father got a Soulcaster? IIRC, when she learns about the Ghostbloods, she assumes he got it from them, but I can’t remember if that was confirmed.

Yes, many confirmations, but the most direct came from the end of WoR:

Spoiler

Ch 88

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“I should have guessed that you would turn out to be Shallan Davar,” Mraize continued. “I feel a fool for not seeing it earlier. Your family has a long history of involvement in these events.”

“I will not help you,” Shallan said.

“Curious. You should know that I have your brothers.”

She looked to him sharply.

“Your house is no more,” Mraize said. “Your family’s grounds seized by a passing army. I rescued your brothers from the chaos of the succession war, and am bringing them here. Your family, however, does owe me a debt. One Soulcaster. Broken.”

He met her eyes. “How convenient that you, by my estimations, are one, little knife.”

 

3 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Hmm, those Palanaeum doors are super interesting. I don’t remember ever coming back to learn more about what this “chart” is on them.

I don't think it is ever discussed agiain, but it was heavily implied to be the Double Eye (a pattern of lines, circles and glyphs forming a chart at the entrance of a place named after the Herald Pailiah). Thanks to the amount of time since the recreance, most would probably not recognize Radiant and Surge glyphs anymore. . .

3 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

This description of Shallan using the souls of people as a medium makes me wonder if her drawing ability is partly connected with her Surgebinding.

Yes, it is a known Lightweaver Resonance. WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Wetlander

In addition to the two abilities given by each Surge, does a Knight Radiant Order have a third blended ability, the interaction of its two given Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

Not specifically as phrased there, but each Order has quirks that are unique to it. They are magical quirks, but it's not necessarily a blend of the powers.

Wetlander

So Shallan's Memories is kind of a...

Brandon Sanderson

Is associated with her Order, yes.

Wetlander

It's not just because she had that wonderful ability, and Pattern came along and went, "Oh, I like this one!"

Brandon Sanderson

No that is not necessarily what attracted Pattern.

Firefight Seattle UBooks signing (Jan. 6, 2015)

Quote

Argent

There is a person on the forums who noticed that Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah seems to have a really powerful, kind of, geolocation thing going on, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on?

Brandon Sanderson

There is something supernatural going on. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at the scholar interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, in the past, and some who said they definitely are. But many, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities.

Argent

So it's definitely tied to the Orders?

Brandon Sanderson

It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... is abnormal for the Windrunners.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

 

 

[FellowshipOfTheTables]

Chapter 9

Man, this chapter. It’s not easy to get through, even knowing where the story goes from here.

The joke about learning names for Damnation, so they can chat about how much more pleasant it is than Bridge 4 was. Wow. Really dark stuff.

Syl tells Kal “You haven't spoken in days.” - ugh, what a life. And, impressive as always, Michael Kramer’s voice for Kal right after that, sounds raspy, like it hasn’t been used in a while.

According to Coppermind, the reason for Sylphrena talking about watching him fight, even though, when he first met her, she was just like a regular windspren, was that she lost most of her cognitive ability. That’s such a cool concept. Syl is just the best.

And then…she leaves. Just, ugh. Poor Kaladin. Content warning for suicidal ideation in the below text

Spoiler

It would be hard to even argue with Kal at this point about suicide not being the right option. I mean, it seems like he has no hope whatsoever, and his life is just absolute misery. Even the one bright spot in his life just left. And yet, that, in itself, is somehow inspirational. When he does start to turn things around, really, his situation doesn't change. Not for a while, anyway. But his attitude does, and, through sheer determination, eventually, things get better. It's such a wholesome story.

Chapter 10

Lirin tells Kal "The Heralds were sent to teach mankind. They led us against the Voidbringers after we were cast from heaven." This...is so messed up, in so many ways. It's really interesting to see the casual mention of a statement that's so opposite of truth, but widely accepted. I hope we actually learn more about what happened on Ashyn before the actual Voidbringers left.

Lirin gets a lot of crap, but he really does seem to love helping people, and does it well, and loves Kal, too. While I don't necessarily agree with his pacifistic stance, I can certainly respect it a lot.

Edited November 30, 2023 by FellowshipOfTheTables

[FellowshipOfTheTables]

Chapter 11

"Lordling...Leave the sandals and vest." Ugh, Gaz is such a great character to hate.

Amazing how the bridge crew considers the "Honor chasm" an honorable choice. Makes me hate Sadeas' war camp so much for what they do to these men. 

"We should all become surgeons. Every last one of us" - such a wholesome sentiment for someone about to commit suicide.

The writing in this whole freaking chapter is just so great.This? Right here? This is what makes me want to write.

Teft has arrived! Such a great reward for Kal turning back from the Honor chasm!

 

 

[alder24]

14 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

It’s interesting that, in her youth, Shallan’s father forbade her to spend time with Parshmen. Wonder if he knew something that most people didn’t??

I don't think so. They are lower than servants, lower than slaves - it's a disgrace for a noble to take an interest in them. 

14 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

I also find it interesting that there’s a mention that the Devotaries tried to reconcile with Jasnah. Like, I wonder what that was about. My impression was that they didn’t do anything in particular to make her mad, she just didn’t like them. So, what, they just tried to make her like them again?

Jasnah, a princess of the most powerful country in the world, is a devoted atheist, which doesn't look good for the Vorin church. It is a direct threat to their influence, so they tried to make peace with her, convert her back to Vorinism or at least join one Devotary and pretend to believe. WoK ch 28 Dalinar and Navani's conversation:

Quote

“She is a heretic.”
“She refused to join any of the devotaries because she did not believe in their teachings. Rather than compromise for the sake of appearances, she has been honest and has refused to make professions she does not believe. I find that a sign of honor”

 

14 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Hmm, those Palanaeum doors are super interesting. I don’t remember ever coming back to learn more about what this “chart” is on them. Part of the diagram, maybe?

Highly unlikely. The Diagram is a new thing, a few years old. Those doors are likely far older than that. Plus it would be really stupid to carve a secret Diagram on public doors. It's probably some image or text referring to Heralds.

Edited November 30, 2023 by alder24

[+Child of Hodor]

On 11/30/2023 at 7:46 AM, alder24 said:

Highly unlikely. The Diagram is a new thing, a few years old. Those doors are likely far older than that. Plus it would be really stupid to carve a secret Diagram on public doors. It's probably some image or text referring to Heralds.

Yeah, Taravangian wrote the diagram all over his room in one day when his intelligence was at a level it as never at before or since and then he had it copied into book form for him to revise on future sufficiently smart days.