Eliminating Feruchemy's Diminishing Returns

[Longshot97]

Okay, quick crash course in Feruchemy. Store iron to become half as heavy for 10 minutes, tap iron to become twice as heavy for 10 minutes later on. Greater heights reached with greater compression of Investiture, though some is lost to facilitate said compression. Good? Good.

Allomantic Duralumin exists.

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Duralumin could potentially be used to gain a burst of power from other forms of Investiture as well, such as Surgebinding.^[9] Burning duralumin while also Compounding any other metal does not gain anything other than time, and is quite dangerous due to the swift effects of the duralumin.^[10]

So, extrapolating from this, A Duralumin Gnat who is also a Ferring may be able to tap their metalmind, then burn A-Duralumin for an enormous burst of instant Feruchemical power. And, if I am theorizing correctly, since it is the Duralumin provides the compression factor, nothing should be lost in the Feruchemy system. After all, A-Duralumin utilizes Investiture (never explicitly stated, but what else would it be?) to release all Allomantic potential in a single action.

For Vin and Elend, this meant controlling Hemalurgic constructs. For Wax and Dumad, this meant enormously powerful Steelpushes. We have also seen A-Duralumin cave in human skulls, completely suppress a human's emotions, and stop time itself.

What would this mean for Feruchemy? Well, not much, beyond a more efficient expression of Investiture, but hey, every little bit helps. This would make Duralumin a more useful metal for Twinborn, even if Mistings will have to cope. This also furthers my mission in showcasing the utility of every Allomantic metal, even the less obviously useful ones.

Except Aluminum. That will never change.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Longshot97 said:

Okay, quick crash course in Feruchemy. Store iron to become half as heavy for 10 minutes, tap iron to become twice as heavy for 10 minutes later on.

Not quite. 10 Minutes at half-weight would equal 10 minutes at 150% weight (not double weight). WoB:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body toward that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

1 hour ago, Longshot97 said:

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Duralumin could potentially be used to gain a burst of power from other forms of Investiture as well, such as Surgebinding.^[9] Burning duralumin while also Compounding any other metal does not gain anything other than time, and is quite dangerous due to the swift effects of the duralumin.^[10]

So, extrapolating from this, A Duralumin Gnat who is also a Ferring may be able to tap their metalmind, then burn A-Duralumin for an enormous burst of instant Feruchemical power.

No. Tapping a metal mind is regular feruchemy. The reason why Duralumin can impact Compounding specifically, is because when a twinborn Compounds, they are burning a metalmind Allomantically (not "Tapping" - "Burning") - and Durlumin is able to release all of the potential of an Allomantic source in a single burst. Burning Durlumin would not effect Tapping - and even if they somehow found a way to hack it to effect Tapping a Metalmind, it would be the same as what Feruchemy can already accomplish by compressing the storage to release the entire amount at one time.

Spoiler

 

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Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and I'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

 

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Questioner

What happens if you burn duralumin while Compounding?

Brandon Sanderson

Duralumin while Compounding. So, what duralumin does is it burns out of all of your metal in one burst. So it doesn't necessarily gain you power, it makes it all happen at the same time. The same thing would happen.

Questioner

Could you turn into a baby?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you could totally turn into a baby. That is within the power of using that, doing <health wrong>, yeah you could totally... You'd be really dangerous.

Questioner

But it wouldn't really do much?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh it would have explosive... it does things really fast. That's what it does. Yes you could achieve very powerful sudden effects through that. It'd be scary. Controlling it can be dangerous, regardless of which metal you use.

 

Hope that helps

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

Okay, quick crash course in Feruchemy. Store iron to become half as heavy for 10 minutes, tap iron to become twice as heavy for 10 minutes later on. Greater heights reached with greater compression of Investiture, though some is lost to facilitate said compression. Good? Good.

Allomantic Duralumin exists.

So, extrapolating from this, A Duralumin Gnat who is also a Ferring may be able to tap their metalmind, then burn A-Duralumin for an enormous burst of instant Feruchemical power. And, if I am theorizing correctly, since it is the Duralumin provides the compression factor, nothing should be lost in the Feruchemy system. After all, A-Duralumin utilizes Investiture (never explicitly stated, but what else would it be?) to release all Allomantic potential in a single action.

For Vin and Elend, this meant controlling Hemalurgic constructs. For Wax and Dumad, this meant enormously powerful Steelpushes. We have also seen A-Duralumin cave in human skulls, completely suppress a human's emotions, and stop time itself.

What would this mean for Feruchemy? Well, not much, beyond a more efficient expression of Investiture, but hey, every little bit helps. This would make Duralumin a more useful metal for Twinborn, even if Mistings will have to cope. This also furthers my mission in showcasing the utility of every Allomantic metal, even the less obviously useful ones.

Yes, that's a popular but very reasonable theory. You word it very nicely. I agree. I believe that you can burn A-duralumin to supercharge Feruchemy. A-duralumin isn't limited to Allomancy, you can affect other invested arts with it, like Surgebinding, I see no reason why it wouldn't work with Feruchemy. Essentially you need to burn A-duralumin with another kind of kinetic investiture to supercharge it. Tapping or storing metalminds is a form of kinetic investiture. It wouldn't work with storing as there are upper limits of how much you can store.

But this can be very dangerous. You are tapping everything without losses in a single moment. If you tap for example F-steel with A-duralumin, you would burn in the atmosphere immediately after making a single step. And you can't control it. It could be useful in some very specific situations, not with every metal. Using small metalminds is advisable.

Spoiler

Paladin Brewer

If a person had the power of Mistborn and other powers like Surges, could he use duralumin to power the Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible.

Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Thoughtful Spurts

If there's really no upper limit to Feruchemy for practical reasons* , why didn't Sazed just fill steel at ridiculous levels for a few minutes in [Well of Ascension], and then go back to running instead of leaving his steelminds there? Say, being some 100,000 times slower than he would normally be for about a minute. Meaning that a Feruchemist should be able to fill a given metalmind in very short periods of time if you fill at a high enough rate.

*(yes, you have the limit of how much you can store in a given metalmind and for how many metalminds you can carry on your person, but those are probably too high to really be taken into account in more "normal" circumstances)

Brandon Sanderson

The low end is bounded. You can pull out tons--but in filling, you can only go so far. I didn't ever explicitly talk about this in the series, but the implications are there. Not all have the same bounds, but in your example, the body just can't slow beyond a certain point. Think of it this way--you can only fill a weight metalmind with as much weight as you have to give. So you can become very, very light--but you only add to a time for doubling your weight. You can't make yourself 100,000 times slower and gain 100,000 times multiplication. You can give up all of your normal speed, and so when you tap that speed out you are at 200% for an equal period. (And that's a theoretical maximum; realistically, you can only go to down around 75% slower or the like.)

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

What happens if you burn duralumin while Compounding?

Brandon Sanderson

Duralumin while Compounding. So, what duralumin does is it burns out of all of your metal in one burst. So it doesn't necessarily gain you power, it makes it all happen at the same time. The same thing would happen.

Questioner

Could you turn into a baby?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you could totally turn into a baby. That is within the power of using that, doing <health wrong>, yeah you could totally... You'd be really dangerous.

Questioner

But it wouldn't really do much?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh it would have explosive... it does things really fast. That's what it does. Yes you could achieve very powerful sudden effects through that. It'd be scary. Controlling it can be dangerous, regardless of which metal you use.

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

 

10 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

Except Aluminum. That will never change.

You underestimate the power of A-aluminum. In the most extreme applications, you can cleanse your soul from unwanted effects of investiture, or your body from impurities, which is quite powerful and handy.

Spoiler

Douglas

What benefit does an aluminum savant get? Yes, I know this would normally never happen because aluminum burns itself up. Suppose a mad scientist with a willing Mistborn test subject shoved a feeding tube down the Mistborn's throat to pump in a continuous stream of aluminum, replenishing it steadily so there's always a new unburned supply. Add another tube to pump out excess water if necessary. What would he discover? Alternatively, what would Sazed with his Shard-granted knowledge know?

Brandon Sanderson

Ha, that IS a little silly of a method. However, on the extreme end of aluminum, I have in the notes the possibility of cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other Investitures. You'd get really good at this, and maybe even be able to cleanse the body of other impurities.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 27, 2012)

Threnody spoilers:

Spoiler

Kurkistan

If you're on Threnody and you get withered by a shade, are you better off burning Allomantic aluminum, or tapping Feruchemical gold?

*laughter*

[clarification on the question]

Brandon Sanderson

They would both work pretty well. I would say if you burned aluminum, that would kind of have the effect that you are wanting it to have, which is the effect-- negating and sucking out, so that's probably safer. But the gold would work, too.

Kurkistan

So would it be fair to describe withering as a kind of cancerous Forging-

Brandon Sanderson

Sure.

Kurkistan

That just kind of slowly takes over your soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Sure.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

[Longshot97]

On 11/13/2023 at 7:57 AM, alder24 said:

But this can be very dangerous. You are tapping everything without losses in a single moment. If you tap for example F-steel with A-duralumin, you would burn in the atmosphere immediately after making a single step. And you can't control it. It could be useful in some very specific situations, not with every metal. Using small metalminds is advisable.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten to include this in my first post. So, easiest way to solve this would be to shift an appropriate amount of power into an extra metalmind. There are WoBs of this being done at very efficient rates.

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Lightning

If you have a metalmind, you have, like, weight stored in it, and you want to transfer it to a different metalmind, can you just transfer it directly? Or does it pass into you, and then you lose some of the power, and then it goes...

Brandon Sanderson

You don't have to draw it completely out. You are gonna lose a little in the transfer. But it's not as much as you probably think. You can kind of do a little hack thing where it goes through.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

Some would be lost, but this means that you can select how much to put in a particular metalmind, then Duralumin-tap to summon all of it.

On 11/12/2023 at 10:30 PM, Treamayne said:

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Duralumin could potentially be used to gain a burst of power from other forms of Investiture as well, such as Surgebinding.^[9] Burning duralumin while also Compounding any other metal does not gain anything other than time, and is quite dangerous due to the swift effects of the duralumin.^[10]

No. Tapping a metal mind is regular feruchemy. The reason why Duralumin can impact Compounding specifically, is because when a twinborn Compounds, they are burning a metalmind Allomantically (not "Tapping" - "Burning") - and Durlumin is able to release all of the potential of an Allomantic source in a single burst. Burning Durlumin would not effect Tapping - and even if they somehow found a way to hack it to effect Tapping a Metalmind, it would be the same as what Feruchemy can already accomplish by compressing the storage to release the entire amount at one time.

So, this is in reference to the Coppermind excerpt above. However, I direct you the WoB cited in the passage above.

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Paladin Brewer

If a person had the power of Mistborn and other powers like Surges, could he use duralumin to power the Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible.

Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)

So, this clearly states that Duralumin can affect other Invested Arts, which could theoretically translate to Feruchemy.

On 11/13/2023 at 7:57 AM, alder24 said:

You underestimate the power of A-aluminum. In the most extreme applications, you can cleanse your soul from unwanted effects of investiture, or your body from impurities, which is quite powerful and handy.

Thank god, someone else recognizes this. I agree, I think A-Aluminum has great cosmerological implications. However, I find it extremely annoying that Aluminum destroys itself as an Allomantic reserve when burned. 

I've always wondered: could A-Aluminum prevent Emotional Allomancy? What about Atium shadows? Could Aluminum briefly disrupt those? How about time bubbles? Could you free yourself from their influence? Such fun to consider.

[Treamayne]

27 minutes ago, Longshot97 said:

So, this is in reference to the Coppermind excerpt above. However, I direct you the WoB cited in the passage above.

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Paladin Brewer

If a person had the power of Mistborn and other powers like Surges, could he use duralumin to power the Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible.

Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)

So, this clearly states that Duralumin can affect other Invested Arts, which could theoretically translate to Feruchemy.

Understood, but you ignored the final point I worked up to:

On 11/12/2023 at 11:30 PM, Treamayne said:

effect Tapping a Metalmind, it would be the same as what Feruchemy can already accomplish by compressing the storage to release the entire amount at one time.

Spoiler

WoBs Here

 

Feruchemy has no need of Duralumin to accomplish the same effect. Duralumin Tap - release all available power in an instant. Max Compress the storage - release all power in the metal mind in an instant. The effects would be the same, or so similar as to be indistinguishable outside of laboratory testing and measuring. The power loss to Feruchemical compression tapping is exhibitied in less proportionate time. Durlumin compresses all Kinetic investiture into the smallest available time. (they are probably operating on the same fundamental realmatics). 

[Longshot97]

34 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Feruchemy has no need of Duralumin to accomplish the same effect. Duralumin Tap - release all available power in an instant. Max Compress the storage - release all power in the metal mind in an instant. The effects would be the same, or so similar as to be indistinguishable outside of laboratory testing and measuring. The power loss to Feruchemical compression tapping is exhibitied in less proportionate time. Durlumin compresses all Kinetic investiture into the smallest available time. (they are probably operating on the same fundamental realmatics). 

You are absolutely correct, I should have addressed this. A Feruchemist is capable of expressing the entirety of a metalmind's stored attribute within a second or so. This grants them an immense surge of power, such as ungodly strength, bewildering speed, or temporary immortality. The issue I am addressing is the power lost.

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Brandon Sanderson

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10 min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body toward that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

The issue is that in order to express more than 150% of a given attribute, some Feruchemical reserves must be sacrificed for the sake of greater power. These are the "diminishing returns" I cited in the title of this post. Now, I think this can be avoided with Allomantic Duralumin, which supercharges Invested Arts (an oversimplification, but a fairly accurate one) in order to compress Feruchemical attributes. The outside manifestation of Investiture should prevent the loss of Feruchemical reserves while still achieving the same hypercharged effect.

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

You are absolutely correct, I should have addressed this. A Feruchemist is capable of expressing the entirety of a metalmind's stored attribute within a second or so. This grants them an immense surge of power, such as ungodly strength, bewildering speed, or temporary immortality. The issue I am addressing is the power lost.

The issue is that in order to express more than 150% of a given attribute, some Feruchemical reserves must be sacrificed for the sake of greater power. These are the "diminishing returns" I cited in the title of this post. Now, I think this can be avoided with Allomantic Duralumin, which supercharges Invested Arts (an oversimplification, but a fairly accurate one) in order to compress Feruchemical attributes. The outside manifestation of Investiture should prevent the loss of Feruchemical reserves while still achieving the same hypercharged effect.

Understood last time as well, again, please read my post rather than skimming it.

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Understood, but you ignored the final point I worked up to:

Feruchemy has no need of Duralumin to accomplish the same effect. Duralumin Tap - release all available power in an instant. Max Compress the storage - release all power in the metal mind in an instant. The effects would be the same, or so similar as to be indistinguishable outside of laboratory testing and measuring. The power loss to Feruchemical compression tapping is exhibitied in less proportionate time. Durlumin compresses all Kinetic investiture into the smallest available time. (they are probably operating on the same fundamental realmatics). 

Your WoB, reduced:

7 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10 min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly.

Duralumin cannot restore the time lost by compression - since you also lose time because you have compressed the effect. Duralumin cannot make the 200% happen for the full 30 minutes it should last because Duralumin is always "everything right now." So, again, how does that differ from what Ferchemists can already accomplish? Maybe (using the WoB example) they get 510% for a few seconds instead of only 500%. . . which circles back to the point above:

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

so similar as to be indistinguishable outside of laboratory testing and measuring.

I understand you really want to explore what other forms of Kinetic investiture Duralumin could effect - I'm simply saying that Feruchemy is not one of the Manifestations of Investiture that can gain much from Duralumin that it cannot already produce. I would expect some surges to be similar (SA Spoilers)

Spoiler

For example, what could duralumin + gravitation have done in the WoK prelude that wasn't already done by Szeth using all his remaining Stormlight on multiple lashings to make the balcony fall.

Here's another WoB that may apply:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Some combinations, like some abilities themselves, aren't really that useful.

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

could A-Aluminum prevent Emotional Allomancy?

It depends. If it can severe the Connection between you and a Soother/Rioter, then it can, if not I would expect it to free you out of their influence only in the moment of burning, which still can be useful and if done precisely, it can shield you from duralumin powered emotional Allomancy. Maybe it could even severe the connection that controls you if you have 4 spikes and someone Hemalurgically controls you. It's hard to say but I can see it working like that.

10 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

What about Atium shadows? Could Aluminum briefly disrupt those?

No, I don't think so. Atium Shadows are glimpses from the SR. 

10 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

How about time bubbles? Could you free yourself from their influence?

I don't think so either. They seem to affect the area around you, the spacetime itself, not you directly.

 

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Feruchemy has no need of Duralumin to accomplish the same effect.

A Nicroburst can boost Feruchemy. duralumin can do the same. It's not about diminishing returns and compression of attributes, it's about kinetic investiture, and tapping metalminds is kinetic investiture

Spoiler

Questioner

Nicrosil and chromium, do those have any interaction with people using Feruchemy, or other Investiture in general? Leechers or Nicrobursts.

Brandon Sanderson

Could you use those on Feruchemists? You should be able to, yes.

Questioner

Would that only work while they're tapping it?

Brandon Sanderson

If it's active Investiture, probably yes. You'd probably need it to be kinetic Investiture in order for them to do anything about it.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Duralumin cannot restore the time lost by compression - since you also lose time because you have compressed the effect. Duralumin cannot make the 200% happen for the full 30 minutes it should last because Duralumin is always "everything right now." So, again, how does that differ from what Ferchemists can already accomplish? Maybe (using the WoB example) they get 510% for a few seconds instead of only 500%. . . which circles back to the point above:

It's not about it. Without diminishing returns, a Feruchemist, who theoretically stored 100% of an attribute for 1 minute, would be able to tap 800% of it in a single second. But with diminishing returns some of this power is used to compress the attribute, thus he could only get 600% in a single second - the rest is lost to compression. Duralumin provides the energy for compression - you use it and it compresses all of your attributes into a single second of use - thus all of 800% you could get, as there is no diminishing returns, no part of your attribute is used for compression. That's what this is all about. You can get all of your attributes in a single moment, without losing anything to compression - it's not about time.

Diminishing returns are getting larger the more attribute you compress. I've done some estimates using this WoB data as starting points. If you store 50% for 60 min, you can tap for 3 min to get 300% - 20 times of time reduction for 4 times of the attribute gained. Without diminishing returns you would get 300% for 7.5 minutes (the numbers in the previous paragraph are based on those estimates). The more you compress, the more you lose. With each increase in compression you lose more than half of the time you could tap it. At first it's just 5 minutes, but with 350% your time is 3.7x shorter than what you would get without compression, with 400% it's 6x shorter and more and more with every additional compression. Of course this WoB was just an example that Brandon came up with, not real numbers, my estimates are also more like a guess, always taking less than a half of the time with every increase, but the trend continues. And when we're talking about timescales of "tapping everything in a single moment", which is the timescale of A-duralumin as well, the loss to compression is very significant. This loss can be prevented with F-duralumin. Thus you can squeeze several more compressions without actually losing any attribute to facilitate those compressions.

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's not about it. Without diminishing returns, a Feruchemist, who theoretically stored 100% of an attribute for 1 minute, would be able to tap 800% of it in a single second. But with diminishing returns some of this power is used to compress the attribute, thus he could only get 600% in a single second - the rest is lost to compression. Duralumin provides the energy for compression - you use it and it compresses all of your attributes into a single second of use - thus all of 800% you could get, as there is no diminishing returns, no part of your attribute is used for compression. That's what this is all about. You can get all of your attributes in a single moment, without losing anything to compression - it's not about time.

Diminishing returns are getting larger the more attribute you compress. I've done some estimates using this WoB data as starting points. If you store 50% for 60 min, you can tap for 3 min to get 300% - 20 times of time reduction for 4 times of the attribute gained. Without diminishing returns you would get 300% for 7.5 minutes (the numbers in the previous paragraph are based on those estimates). The more you compress, the more you lose. With each increase in compression you lose more than half of the time you could tap it. At first it's just 5 minutes, but with 350% your time is 3.7x shorter than what you would get without compression, with 400% it's 6x shorter and more and more with every additional compression. Of course this WoB was just an example that Brandon came up with, not real numbers, my estimates are also more like a guess, always taking less than a half of the time with every increase, but the trend continues. And when we're talking about timescales of "tapping everything in a single moment", which is the timescale of A-duralumin as well, the loss to compression is very significant. This loss can be prevented with F-duralumin. Thus you can squeeze several more compressions without actually losing any attribute to facilitate those compressions.

Understood. I think we are interpreting the same data differently. You also seem to put far more weight on non-canon off-the-cuff examples than I do.  Here's the WoB in full (since only part was quoted before):

Spoiler

Sporkify

This is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

Footnote: This question was asked when fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy had only been seen in Rashek. As such, the term compounding is used purely to reference tapping at a higher rate than can be stored.
Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

So, at a Q&A brandon gives an example with random numbers to illustrate the point that Compressed F-Traits expend some of the trait to achieve the multiplicative effects. However, if you run the numbers, the off-the cuff "200% for 25 minutes" does not match what we see with either Sazed in WoA or with Wax in Era 2. So, I do not think thsoe numbers are accurate enough to extrapolate a percentage loss ratio (on what is likely to be a bell curve algorithm). 

I also cannot convince myself that an uncontrolled reaction of duralumin compressed feruchemy is worth the risk excpet possibly  in th emost extreme circumstances. You mention 600% and 800% - but your example for the later would only be 700% (where 60 seconds is 1:1 - the progression of "halves" is 30, 15, 7.5, 3.75, 1.875, 0.9375 - which rounds up to 1 second, which is X^7 where X is the compression of time and trait). Also, what circumstance for which trait would be worth compressing to a handful of seconds - when we already see that many Allomantic uses of Duralumin will kill the user when you don't have compensatory abilities for balance (see the examples here - even if the original premise of the post was jossed). So most Ferring | A-Duralumin twinborn would be crazy to try this if they expect to survive (except maybe the smallest metalminds - then the risk doesn;t seem worth the gain to me). 

It's okay to disagree. We don't have legitimate numbers yet on the ratio of power lost to ferchemical compression.

[alder24]

29 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

You also seem to put far more weight on non-canon off-the-cuff examples than I do.  Here's the WoB in full (since only part was quoted before):

  Reveal hidden contents

Sporkify

This is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

Footnote: This question was asked when fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy had only been seen in Rashek. As such, the term compounding is used purely to reference tapping at a higher rate than can be stored.
Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

So, at a Q&A brandon gives an example with random numbers to illustrate the point that Compressed F-Traits expend some of the trait to achieve the multiplicative effects. However, if you run the numbers, the off-the cuff "200% for 25 minutes" does not match what we see with either Sazed in WoA or with Wax in Era 2. So, I do not think thsoe numbers are accurate enough to extrapolate a percentage loss ratio (on what is likely to be a bell curve algorithm). 

I said it myself, this was just Brandon giving us the example, not real numbers. I've based my example on his example to show you the point here. It's not meant to be accurate or precise, it's just to show you there is something significant here to gain, more than 10% like you claimed. It seems like you've misunderstood the point of @Longshot97 who was talking about:

On 11/13/2023 at 4:00 AM, Longshot97 said:

burn A-Duralumin for an enormous burst of instant Feruchemical power. And, if I am theorizing correctly, since it is the Duralumin provides the compression factor, nothing should be lost in the Feruchemy system.

When you said:

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Duralumin cannot make the 200% happen for the full 30 minutes it should last because Duralumin is always "everything right now."

That's why I was trying to correct you and give you the example with numbers - nobody wanted to suggest that you could tap at 200% with duralumin and get 30 minutes of it, without losing 5 minutes to compression, or that duralumin isn't "everything right now". It's not about time, it's about investiture. You're losing it so it can compress the attribute, thus you have a shorter time of tapping. But with no losses, you would actually get time precisely halved with each compression, and thus, for the same time you would want to tap the compressed attribute, you would get more compressions, more power, without any loss when using duralumin. I will talk about it more further down.

27 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

You mention 600% and 800% - but your example for the later would only be 700% (where 60 seconds is 1:1 - the progression of "halves" is 30, 15, 7.5, 3.75, 1.875, 0.9375 - which rounds up to 1 second, which is X^7 where X is the compression of time and trait).

You get 200% of your strength at 60 seconds. 100% of your base strength + 100% from metalminds. 800% for 1 second without any loss. When counting diminishing returns, you get 600%, here are numbers I've "guessed":

Spoiler

Tapping 1 minute of 100% attrubute stored with diminishing returns:

60	200%
25	300%
10	400%
3	500%
1	600%
0,3	700%
0,1	800%

Without losses:

200%	60
300%	30
400%	15
500%	7,5
600%	3,75
700%	1,875
800%	0,9375

And this was just from 1 minute of storing. Now what if you stored for 1h - that's 4 compressions lost (from tapping 8x with losses to 12x with A-duralumin). For a day? For a week? Month? More with each, more reasonably sized metalmind. Remember, I'm stopping at 1 second, A-duralumin stops at "a brief moment", just when the extreme compression of attributes stops - there would be even more to gain. And this is just from numbers which I've guessed, based on Brandon's example with random numbers, which was just meant to show his point. I'm showing my point here - you can use F-duralumin to prevent the loss of an attribute to compression, if you want to just tap everything at once, and you will get everything you've stored with no losses. That's the point of this topic. It's simply possible and you will gain something from it. 

If this is useful or safe is a completely different question.

57 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Also, what circumstance for which trait would be worth compressing to a handful of seconds - when we already see that many Allomantic uses of Duralumin will kill the user when you don't have compensatory abilities for balance (see the examples here - even if the original premise of the post was jossed). So most Ferring | A-Duralumin twinborn would be crazy to try this if they expect to survive (except maybe the smallest metalminds - then the risk doesn;t seem worth the gain to me). 

I agree, but that's not the point here. This is something that I've expressed in my first post to this topic:

On 11/13/2023 at 2:57 PM, alder24 said:

But this can be very dangerous. You are tapping everything without losses in a single moment. If you tap for example F-steel with A-duralumin, you would burn in the atmosphere immediately after making a single step. And you can't control it. It could be useful in some very specific situations, not with every metal. Using small metalminds is advisable.

Some attributes like weight, Connection, Investiture, Fortune, mental speed, determination or some senses (like smell) wouldn't be that dangerous to you, maybe even heat (if you just want to become hotter than the Sun and set everything around you on fire by sheer proximity). But others would be very dangerous to use with A-duralumin (heat too), so it's not for everyone, and you would have to find the balance yourself, with properly sized metalminds, which can store precise amount of attribute that won't harm or kill you outright, but will provide a significant boost to your power with no losses to compression (like an earlier example, even getting from tapping 8x to 12x is a big change for something like strength or speed). 

And while in Allomancy you need to burn pewter when burning steel, with Feruchemy this is less of a problem, as it helps you survive extreme amounts of attributes, like you won't collapse under your own weight, or you won't burn when tapping heat or stuff like that. You have a much easier time to find the balance needed to tap small amounts of attributes.

But again, this is still very dangerous, I’m not denying it, but there are some ways around it, there are some uses of this idea and I believe this is a very interesting combination worth exploring. A Twinborn like this would have to change the very way he stores and uses his attributes, having tens of small piercings all around his body so he can burst each of them separately whenever he needs them, without dying in an a spectacular flash of power.

[Treamayne]

40 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's why I was trying to correct you and give you the example with numbers - nobody wanted to suggest that you could tap at 200% with duralumin and get 30 minutes of it, without losing 5 minutes to compression, or that duralumin isn't "everything right now". It's not about time, it's about investiture. You're losing it so it can compress the attribute, thus you have a shorter time of tapping. But with no losses, you would actually get time precisely halved with each compression, and thus, for the same time you would want to tap the compressed attribute, you would get more compressions, more power, without any loss when using duralumin. I will talk about it more further down.

I think we are talking past each other a bit here -- my point was that Duralumin Taps are not as useful as being able to control the increment and timing. Why would you ever want to use Duralumin to tap "everything now" without controlling how much and how long? Duralumin can't affect or help the compression loss for the usefule increments of 2-3x compression where it would matter. 

46 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You get 200% of your strength at 60 seconds. 100% of your base strength + 100% from metalminds. 800% for 1 second without any loss.

Yeah - Duh Me. That's what I get for posting tired.