Hmmm lies Posted November 10 Report Share Posted November 10 I was thinking about how 17 people killed Adonalsium, and how they did it. Although it is true they had the most powerful weapons in existence, Adonalsium was most likely the most Invested being in the Cosmere. Now it is possible the Dawnshards are more powerful, but there is still one confusing thing. All of the Shards seem to have access to Fortune, or the ability to see the future, or possible outcomes at least. So by that logic, shouldn't Adonalsium have had incredibly powerful access to Fortune, and could therefore foresee the Shards coming to kill him? I suppose there are 3 possibilities No matter what happened, the Shattering, or something even worse to Adonalsium would happen The Shards got access to Fortune somehow Or, I think the most interesting, Adonalsium foresaw the Shattering, and let it happen I figure the last theory is unlikely, the Shards most likely knew about his access to Fortune, and would have planned accordingly, and some things Hoid say make it seem like Adonalsium was not happy with the whole thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted November 10 Report Share Posted November 10 43 minutes ago, Hmmm lies said: I was thinking about how 17 people killed Adonalsium, and how they did it. Although it is true they had the most powerful weapons in existence, Adonalsium was most likely the most Invested being in the Cosmere. Now it is possible the Dawnshards are more powerful, but there is still one confusing thing. All of the Shards seem to have access to Fortune, or the ability to see the future, or possible outcomes at least. So by that logic, shouldn't Adonalsium have had incredibly powerful access to Fortune, and could therefore foresee the Shards coming to kill him? I suppose there are 3 possibilities No matter what happened, the Shattering, or something even worse to Adonalsium would happen The Shards got access to Fortune somehow Or, I think the most interesting, Adonalsium foresaw the Shattering, and let it happen I figure the last theory is unlikely, the Shards most likely knew about his access to Fortune, and would have planned accordingly, and some things Hoid say make it seem like Adonalsium was not happy with the whole thing. "The Shards" didn't exist before the Shattering. They were just people back then. I call them the 17, or original Vessels. Because Shards didn't exist before, the rules which bind them might not apply to Adonalsium at all - Adonalsium might be some kind of force, not entity, have no Vessel, no sentience or no will, no access to future vision - everything is on the table as we basically know nothing at this moment. Dawnshards may not have existed back then either - there are WoBs talking about the weapon used to kill Adonalsium, which was destroyed in the process, but remains of it still exists - strongly hinting that pre-Shattering Dawnshards were different in some way that current ones. Dawnshards themselves are useless on their own, I wouldn't call them "the most powerful weapons in existence". They're like A-dualumin on the Shardic level, they need some other invested art to work at full potential. That being said, who told you that Adonalsium has to be good with the future sight? We have examples of Shards who aren't particularly good with it, like Ruin and Honor, maybe Adonalsium wasn't that good as well. Additionally it took a mere human with imperfect future vision to cloud Odium's sight and prevent him from seeing his own demise - Shardic future vision is very limited and easily disrupted, it shows possibilities, not certain futures - the same might apply to Adonalsium. It's not that hard to get access to Fortune - everyone has a little access to their own Fortune. If the 17 had access to Dawnshard with some invested art, then why couldn’t they be able to manipulate Fortune, or peer directly into SR to see the future? To add more, does Sazed have double the future sight as normal Shards? It doesn't seem that way, he was blinded by Autonomy without any troubles, and the Intent of Shard plays a big role in determining which Shard is good or bad at predicting the future. Harmony might be bad at this because of his Intent, Adonalsium might be bad at it for multiple reasons (maybe he had a bad day at work). Another possibility is that something bad happened to Adonalsium, he might have gone insane, or otherwise unable to act in certain ways (maybe he always was like that), which forced the 17 to Shatter him, or at least make them believe this was the right choice to make. Tress spoilers: Spoiler After all they said "it's for your own good" to Adonalsium, believing it was necessary to Shatter him. This also implies that Adonalsium was a sentient entity, not a mindless force. Tress ch 56: Quote “So far as I can tell,” he said, his voice growing very soft. “I’m sorry, Tress. I can’t let you face the Sorceress. I can’t. For your own good, you see.” Ah, those words. I’ve heard those words. I’ve said those words. The words that proclaim, in bald-faced arrogance, “I don’t trust you to make your own decisions.” The words we pretend will soften the blow, yet instead layer condescension on top of already existent pain. Like dirt on a corpse. Oh yes. I’ve said those words. I said them with sixteen other people, in fact. WoBs: Spoiler Questioner Did Hoid think of the Shattering as necessary? Brandon Sanderson *pause* Kind of. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Spoiler Jeremy (paraphrased) When Honor speaks of his inability to see the future, he likens it to a shattering window. Is this related to the fact that in the not-too-distant future, he himself will be splintered? Or is it more a matter of Intent; e.g., Cultivation (and Preservation?) is geared toward future development, whereas Honor is geared toward current behavior. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) This is not related to his impending Splintering, it is a matter of differing Intents. When Worlds Collide 2014 (Aug. 9, 2014) Spoiler Chaos I asked Brandon to write in my book something about that opposing force. Brandon Sanderson There was a weapon created by the opposition of Adonalsium. Words of Radiance release party (March 3, 2014) Spoiler imriel452 My request for Brandon was "for information on the current status of the weapon that was used to kill Adonalsium, including the current possessor". Brandon Sanderson The weapon was expended, and no longer exists in its original form. General Signed Books 2016 (Feb. 25, 2016) Spoiler Valhalla So, you talked about a weapon made by the enemies of Adonalsium, and you said it doesn't exist in it's original form. Do any remnants of it still exist in the Physical Realm? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Valhalla Have we seen any of those remnants on-screen? Brandon Sanderson *pause* RAFO. In current continuity (and people would know this), Hoid's immortality comes from this. People who have read Dragonsteel know that. Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018) As a bonus, this wasn't the first time someone tried to kill Adonalsium, so Adonalsium allowing Shattering to happen is less likely (sad as I like this idea): Spoiler imriel452 Tell me something about the cosmere that has not been previously mentioned. Brandon Sanderson Long ago there was a plot to destroy Adonalsium. It failed. General Signed Books 2015 (Jan. 7, 2015) 1 hour ago, Hmmm lies said: and some things Hoid say make it seem like Adonalsium was not happy with the whole thing. Which things? Quotes please? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hmmm lies Posted November 10 Author Report Share Posted November 10 I was actually referring to the same Tress quote, as well as this here also from Tress, mentioning that the plot was secret (not as much evidence). Quote That is probably the craziest, most reckless thing I've ever heard someone say—and I was literally part of a secret plot to kill God. It's implied that Hoid said the first quote when Adonalsium was about to die (or to his CS, assuming he has one), and I doubt Hoid would say that if Adonalsium already knew. I like the idea of him being insane, that would likely mess with Fortune, or at least cause him to not act on it properly. Interesting about someone trying to destroy him before, it could still be that he thought the Vessels would do better with the power, I do want to know more about this now. We only have confirmation on two Invested Arts prior to the Shattering, Lightweaving and microkinesis, but it is possible and likely that there are more, so the Vessels having access to Fortune is a very viable theory. I just also came up with an idea, what if the Dawnshards as they worked in the past were used somehow to channel the power from Adonalsium into the Vessels, considering the way they absorb Investiture (No more merit to this theory then any other though, we just don't know enough). I suppose one question is did the people attempting to kill Adonalsium the first time use the Dawnshards as they existed then, or some other way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ookla the Sibling Posted November 11 Report Share Posted November 11 6 hours ago, alder24 said: As a bonus, this wasn't the first time someone tried to kill Adonalsium, so Adonalsium allowing Shattering to happen is less likely (sad as I like this idea): I still think this is entirely possible and might even be made more meaningful by this WoB. Imagine if someone/someones tried to kill/destroy Adonalsium and failed. Adonalsium prevented them and considered themself completely justified. But then Adonalsium realized that they were wrong, and that they had to die, so the next time someone tried to kill them, they let it happen. Seems cool to me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted November 11 Report Share Posted November 11 14 hours ago, Hmmm lies said: It's implied that Hoid said the first quote when Adonalsium was about to die (or to his CS, assuming he has one), and I doubt Hoid would say that if Adonalsium already knew. I think they said "It's for your own good" not to Adonalsium, but to themselves, because they wanted to justify what they were doing, they wanted not to feel the guilt, because they wanted to assure themselves they were doing the right thing despite feeling that this isn't right. Even if they believed it was necessary, especially then, many of them might feel guilty and they just wanted to ease their conscience. 14 hours ago, Hmmm lies said: it could still be that he thought the Vessels would do better with the power, Yeah, no, I doubt that 14 hours ago, Hmmm lies said: what if the Dawnshards as they worked in the past were used somehow to channel the power from Adonalsium into the Vessels, considering the way they absorb Investiture (No more merit to this theory then any other though, we just don't know enough). I don't think so, Hoid was offered a Shard, but rejected it. The Shattering happened, Adonalsium was Shattered into 16 pieces, and the original Vessels new more or less what to expect and which one to pick up. It was a more or less regular type of Ascending, powers of Shards dropped and people picked them up, just like Vin, Sazed or Taravangian. But we know too little about it to know for sure. Spoiler senjox We've seen in both Secret History and RoW that a Shard's power has a will of its own and can "reject" a vessel if it's not adequate (like Preservation with Kelsier) and "tempt" if it is (like Odium with Taravangian). Does that mean that the first sixteen that Ascended needed to be fit for their respective shards? Brandon Sanderson Yes. To an extent, yes. It was a little easier back then, but yes. *Thinks for a while* Yes. So, why am I hesitating on this? Not all of the sixteen could've taken any one of the sixteen. So not all the Vessels could take any of the sixteen. But the flexibility of which ones they could've taken, was much greater than you're perhaps anticipating right now. There were certain Shards that they had, they deliberately had a person pick up, that they thought would be a better controller of that Shard, if that makes sense. Rather than picking the person who is the best match. So, there you go. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) 8 hours ago, The Sibling said: I still think this is entirely possible and might even be made more meaningful by this WoB. Imagine if someone/someones tried to kill/destroy Adonalsium and failed. Adonalsium prevented them and considered themself completely justified. But then Adonalsium realized that they were wrong, and that they had to die, so the next time someone tried to kill them, they let it happen. Seems cool to me. You're right, that makes sense. Good point. Thanks, looks like this theory is back on the menu. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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