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Is it possible for a Cognitive Shadow to become solid, and if so, how much investiture would it take?


Ookla of Ravens

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I wonder why ...

I think Kelsier had to be stapled on, and the Heralds achieved something similar with their connection to honor. The fused would count, maybe, but both of those are from shards directly.

Ishar was trying to bring spren into the physical realm, so expect connection to be the limiting factor, not investiture

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15 minutes ago, TheRavenHasLanded said:

Just a thought i had.

Solid like a Shardblade or solid like a physical body? A Shardblade might be possible (if they don't have a physical body already), because CS (Kelsier) can form a Nahel Bond like a spren, but a body, well it depends - Heralds have it, Returned have it, others too. Kelsier doesn't because his Connection to PR is broken, he can't manifest his body there. If Kelsier bonds somebody, he will gain some Connection to PR, and this might allow him to manifest as a Shardblade, just like spren on Roshar - at least that's my opinion.

Spoiler

Blightsong

Could Kelsier theoretically bond with someone on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

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11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Solid like a Shardblade or solid like a physical body? A Shardblade might be possible (if they don't have a physical body already), because CS (Kelsier) can form a Nahel Bond like a spren, but a body, well it depends - Heralds have it, Returned have it, others too. Kelsier doesn't because his Connection to PR is broken, he can't manifest his body there. If Kelsier bonds somebody, he will gain some Connection to PR, and this might allow him to manifest as a Shardblade, just like spren on Roshar - at least that's my opinion.

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Blightsong

Could Kelsier theoretically bond with someone on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

Returned are just put back into their original bodies, I think. or at least the one case where we get a description of the process happening that was the case; suppose it could be different if the original body was completely destroyed. Heralds are a better example, but they are roped up in the oathpact, which involves 2 shards and more than enough investiture to build them new bodies every time they reincarnate.

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20 minutes ago, TheRavenHasLanded said:

a physical body.

Then you're looking at what Ishar is doing, which didn't end well for spren. They can't manifest a physical body themselves, they need something like a will of a Shard to do that - that's why Returned have their bodies (Endowment stampled them back into it), that's why Heralds have them (Oathpact is involved). But they can't just make one themselves - Fused had to possess a body, Kelsier too, they can't just make it. Cognitive Shadow's Connection to PR is broken when they die and they need something else to recreate that, Shards do that for them, but they can't do it on their own.

They would have to have a looot of Investiture to recreate/manifest their physical body, if they're like Kelsier, but they don't have their original body around - so much that they simply can't do it just like that (and they would still need to Connect themselves to PR and that's even harder, it probably won't just happen with enough Investiture, they need Bondsmithing).

Spoiler

Questioner

With regards to certain experiments, would it be fair to say Ishar and a certain Scadrian have similar goals? 

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitation noises* I don't know that I would say that 100%. The certain Scadrian you reference has been able to achieve the goals that he wants. Let's see if I can circumlocute this: there's a certain set of bones floating around that already has a Connection to this individual, which was useful in achieving what he wanted to do, which is not a luxury that Ishar has. 

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Would Kelsier be able to Return to the Physical Realm in the same way that Vasher did?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Mmmm… which time? Let me parse this question. Could a Shard with a great deal of Investiture take his Cognitive Shadow and staple it to a body, or indeed recreate (which is usually what happens) an entirely new body for him? Yes, that could happen. It would need, really, the will of a Shard and the desire to do so, but that could happen.

He couldn’t do it himself, though; because you could also have been asking: “return to the Physical Realm,” pop through; ‘cause Vasher popped through a perpendicualrity to get onto Roshar, which is another way he returned to the Physical Realm. I didn’t think that’s what you were asking, but sometimes, once in a while, you’re asking multiple things at once to be tricksy.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

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22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Then you're looking at what Ishar is doing, which didn't end well for spren. They can't manifest a physical body themselves, they need something like a will of a Shard to do that - that's why Returned have their bodies (Endowment stampled them back into it), that's why Heralds have them (Oathpact is involved). But they can't just make one themselves - Fused had to possess a body, Kelsier too, they can't just make it. Cognitive Shadow's Connection to PR is broken when they die and they need something else to recreate that, Shards do that for them, but they can't do it on their own.

They would have to have a looot of Investiture to recreate/manifest their physical body, if they're like Kelsier, but they don't have their original body around - so much that they simply can't do it just like that (and they would still need to Connect themselves to PR and that's even harder, it probably won't just happen with enough Investiture, they need Bondsmithing).

  Hide contents

Questioner

With regards to certain experiments, would it be fair to say Ishar and a certain Scadrian have similar goals? 

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitation noises* I don't know that I would say that 100%. The certain Scadrian you reference has been able to achieve the goals that he wants. Let's see if I can circumlocute this: there's a certain set of bones floating around that already has a Connection to this individual, which was useful in achieving what he wanted to do, which is not a luxury that Ishar has. 

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

  Hide contents

Questioner

Would Kelsier be able to Return to the Physical Realm in the same way that Vasher did?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Mmmm… which time? Let me parse this question. Could a Shard with a great deal of Investiture take his Cognitive Shadow and staple it to a body, or indeed recreate (which is usually what happens) an entirely new body for him? Yes, that could happen. It would need, really, the will of a Shard and the desire to do so, but that could happen.

He couldn’t do it himself, though; because you could also have been asking: “return to the Physical Realm,” pop through; ‘cause Vasher popped through a perpendicualrity to get onto Roshar, which is another way he returned to the Physical Realm. I didn’t think that’s what you were asking, but sometimes, once in a while, you’re asking multiple things at once to be tricksy.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

I find it interesting that it "is usually what happens" with a whole new body being made from scratch.  We know a few ways to fabricate/appropriate the PR Meatsuit itself, I think, but that leaves Connecting as the magic sauce needed (probably Bondsmithing or Hemalurgy), or maybe a very specially prepared Awakening Command to grab the CS and pull it into a body?  Or you could try to Manifest a fresh body from/for your spirit more like spren or maybe the Heralds do, which would take a Shard's intervention, or possibly a stuffed Shardpool's worth of Investiture on par with the Well, and the Intent to get it done. 

I wonder if you can Forge a Cognitive Shadow in Shadesmar the way you can supposedly Spike them?  That might open up possibilities, maybe you can Forge the shadow to a Never-Dead  timeline, which I assume is much easier within their original lifespan than for a 1000 year old ghost (along with various other hurdles). 

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We have one more very notable case. SP spoilers, not saying which one because even hinting that this topic is relevant is a spoiler and if you know, you know.

Spoiler

Presumably Yumi was able to manifest a body without any sort of practice or training - she just did at the end if the kiss with Painter was anything to go by.

My guess is that if you have a huuuuuuge amount of Investiture and a ridiculously strong Spiritual aspect to create the body template from, then you can form the body from the Spiritual template. Humans can get away with this because their spiritual aspect is compliant with the PR, or the Radiants and Yumi just had sufficient access to Investiture to survive regardless. Notably both classes are functionally immortal even, even resisting aging.

My guess for the spren is that the template for the PR body has to come from the spren themselves - and all of the Investiture that they hold they consider to be part of themselves so all of the Investiture gets used in to creation of the body. If the body works great, if it doesn't then their life-support organs if they have any fail and they die. If you were to plug a spren transitioned to the PR into a large enough Investiture source that they could live on raw Investiture, then they could probably make the transition and live. The Heralds are directly tied to Honor's power and it's quite possible that this external source is still viewed as separate from their spiritual aspect. They subsist off of that Investiture granting them immortality separate from serial rebirth in an adult body. If that's the case, they might have been able to persist even if their body wasn't suited for life support like a Cryptic (in fact if any of them started showing their ages, they'd crumble like TLR).

I could see a Returned pulling this off in the right context so long as they had enough breaths to make to survive the transition. Perhaps they would use their Divine Breath (which is the template for their soul) to create the new body but depending on how old they are they would need at least the 5th Heightening to not crumple into dust if they were a normal human again. The Investiture for the body has to come from somewhere. Maaaybe they could get the normal Breaths to make the body but I'm not sure if that would work.

That's my 2 cents while I take a break from homework. I didn't think too hard on this, now back to data analysis.

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