Skewering an elantrino

[Alumínio he/him]

If I stab an elantrino with a nicrosil spike (steals imvestiture) what would I get? since they do not maintain investiture, they only channel the DOR

[Quantus he/him]

I think you'd pretty much only get whatever they are actively channeling at the time, so at minimum this might be the difference between an active Elantrian and a Shaod Elantrian that has no flowing Dor, and more if they are actively powering any AonDor.  

I cannot find it at the moment, but I believe there is a WOB that confirms Hemalurgy can be used to steal Kinetic Investiture if you time it correctly.  

Edited October 20, 2023 by Quantus

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Alumínio said:

If I stab an elantrino with a nicrosil spike (steals imvestiture) what would I get? since they do not maintain investiture, they only channel the DOR

Nicrosil steals a piece of a soul - that's innate investiture usually. Elantrains are quite invested, without actively channeling the Dor (that's kinetic investiture). You would get their innate investiture, and that's raw investiture keyed to Devotion mostly. It would be like stealing Preservation's fragment by a Set scientist in TLM, but from somebody much, much more invested than a regular person is. Elantrains are very invested.

If an Elantrian is actively channeling the Dor, you could steal even more from him, as you could steal that kinetic investiture as well. But Elantrians are constantly connected to the Dor, they are constantly unconsciously drawing from the Dor to be healed, stop aging, to glow and look like they do. You can steal quite a lot of raw investiture from them. 

You don't get powers from it, you don't get a spike that would make you into Elantrian, you just get raw investiture. If you want to become an Elantrian via Hemalurgy, you have to steal the Connection to Arelon (duralumin) and also the ability to go through the transformation (no idea, Atium spike maybe?) - you need two spikes.

Spoiler

mail-mi

Could you spike Elantrian-ness? Like, could you Hemalurgically spike Elantrian-ness?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically, yes.

mail-mi

Could you out of a Reod Elantrian? The zombie ones?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, yes you could.

mail-mi

You could?

Brandon Sanderson

So what you would be spiking there is their Connection to...to the planet, first. That's gonna be the big important thing. So you're going to overwrite your Connection. Um, and then you're going to....it's going to be a complicated process because you're going to have to spike the actual ability to have been transformed, that's gonna be harder.

mail-mi

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Does that make sense?

mail-mi

Yeah, so it's gonna take two spikes.

Brandon Sanderson

It's gonna take two spikes.

mail-mi

Alright.

Brandon Sanderson

And you gonna have to get the right Connection to the right place. Let's say you spike somebody from MaiPon, and then you spike an Elantrian, you're not going to be able to use it, you're not connected to the right area.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

Yumi spoilers:

Spoiler

Elantrians are more invested than Returned and even Heralds. You can steal a lot of raw investiture from them:

Spoiler

Argent

If we are looking at very highly Invested beings, we have Yumi, and we are told that she is more Invested than Elantrians, more Invested than Returned. Let's compare Yumi, Elantrians, and Heralds. Who is most Invested, who is least Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Of those, probably Heralds... The thing is, the Heralds varied. How in tune and aligned they are with their oaths, their promise... It wasn't Oaths, but they did promise certain things when they became Heralds. It was pre Knights Radiants, it's not as formalized as Oaths. How in line with the power of Honor, how in line with the kind of natural Investiture of Roshar--which is separate from Honor, Cultivation and Odium--are they, how can they draw upon that. I will call them the least of the three though.

Argent

So Heralds on the bottom, and Yumi on top, and Elantrians in the middle?

Brandon Sanderson

Yumi on top, but Yumi's very close to an Elantrian. They're within the same conversation. And most of the yoki-hijo were traditionally in the past less, they've gained Investiture over time.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

 

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I cannot find it at the moment, but I believe there is a WOB that confirms Hemalurgy can be used to steal Kinetic Investiture if you time it correctly.  

This one?

Spoiler

Questioner

With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths, when they get to the other planets?

Brandon Sanderson

So spikes rip off pieces of the soul and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul. You could maybe get a divine Breath but I haven't really decided on regular Breaths, they're kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm which is not a thing that spikes are dealing with. Divine Breath, potentially, because that's something that's actually melding onto your soul. But, you know, when you're using the Breaths they reach through to the Spiritual Realm so, maybe if you got it while the Breaths were kinetic, right, while you're using them, then you might be able to rip them off. I'm not a hundred percent certain on that one.

Bystander

There's still things to decide upon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there's still things, like I have to kind of see. My instinct says no right now. But, you know, how they interact is not something that I have-- Yeah.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

 

[Quantus he/him]

40 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 

This one?

  Hide contents

Questioner

With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths, when they get to the other planets?

Brandon Sanderson

So spikes rip off pieces of the soul and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul. You could maybe get a divine Breath but I haven't really decided on regular Breaths, they're kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm which is not a thing that spikes are dealing with. Divine Breath, potentially, because that's something that's actually melding onto your soul. But, you know, when you're using the Breaths they reach through to the Spiritual Realm so, maybe if you got it while the Breaths were kinetic, right, while you're using them, then you might be able to rip them off. I'm not a hundred percent certain on that one.

Bystander

There's still things to decide upon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there's still things, like I have to kind of see. My instinct says no right now. But, you know, how they interact is not something that I have-- Yeah.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

 

Yes, although it feels a bit at odds with this one that straight says Nicrosil Spikes steal raw Investiture like Breaths.  Same with Memories in Copper Metalminds vs Copper Spikes, Im not really clear on what the difference is (if there is one in those cases).

 

 

Spoiler

Quote

 

Pagerunner

The Hemalurgy table, you wrote down "atium steals any power, lerasium is all abilities, nicrosil is Investiture"; what's the difference between those three?

Hemalurgic atium, lerasium, and nicrosil. What's powers, abilities, and Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

People are Invested in ways that do not give them active powers. So for instance, everyone on Nalthis is Invested. Everyone in the cosmere is, really. You want to steal their Investiture, but they don't have a power. You're still ripping off a piece of their soul. So there is a distinction between the actual Investiture that's in a human being and a specific power that they have.

So that distinction is pretty easy. You can also, with Hemalurgy, steal specific things. You can steal just general Investiture. You can steal, if you want--this is where the kandra Blessings come from. You can instead steal specific things that are not like stealing Allomancy. Stealing, for instance, someone's mental acuity.

Pagerunner

So abilities is like the half that's all the strength, speed, all that kind of stuff? Those are abilities, versus the Metallic Arts are all powers?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Pagerunner

Then Investiture, is that offworld magics?

Brandon Sanderson

No, no, it's the raw power.

Pagerunner

Nicrosil is their soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. A piece of their soul, essentially.

Pagerunner

So how would you go about stealing an offworld power?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to depend. A Breath, you would steal with nicrosil. It's general Investiture, is what you would probably going call that. You could forcibly remove someone's Breath from them. The ability to be a Sand Master you would steal with the power ability.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Quantus

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Yes, although it feels a bit at odds with this one that straight says Nicrosil Spikes steal raw Investiture like Breaths.

This one you've posted is more recent so I guess he decided and you can steal Breaths with spikes.

12 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Same with Memories in Copper Metalminds vs Copper Spikes, Im not really clear on what the difference is (if there is one in those cases).

I don't think it is the same. The term "investiture" is used both to mean "invested art" but also just "raw investiture". Based on WoBs and information from BoM and TLM we are able to determine which meaning applies to which art. There is no such conflict of different meanings with memories and copper. And because tables and Ars Arcanum are made by in-world people, who don't understand what nicrosil can do, its description is not precise yet.