joint spiritual web for hemalurgy

[Alumínio he/him]

I've seen metal spike theories shared and recently I've read almost everything that @Confie em nós has posted within the site  ( So please give me your opinion, you are my reference in hemalurgy here) Isoon thought about the idea of joint spiritual webs, perhaps with enough connection or some magical hack involving awakening there is the possibility of merging the spiritual web of two people who are close enough, like brothers for example. By doing this, perhaps we could overcome the hemalurgical failure or even share powers. Maybe people end up with a hive mind like those roshar conscientious Kremlins, I don't know

At the moment I'm in the middle of the gym with a lot of caffeine and pre-workout in my blood, maybe I'm rambling too much

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Alumínio said:

I've seen metal spike theories shared and recently I've read almost everything that @Confie em nós has posted within the site  ( So please give me your opinion, you are my reference in hemalurgy here) Isoon thought about the idea of joint spiritual webs, perhaps with enough connection or some magical hack involving awakening there is the possibility of merging the spiritual web of two people who are close enough, like brothers for example. By doing this, perhaps we could overcome the hemalurgical failure or even share powers. Maybe people end up with a hive mind like those roshar conscientious Kremlins, I don't know

At the moment I'm in the middle of the gym with a lot of caffeine and pre-workout in my blood, maybe I'm rambling too much

I don't think that would work at all. Identity would mess everything up and prevent it from working. At best you could achieve something like Hemalurgic control that Vin does with Koloss/Kandra - but a complete merger of two spiritwebs seems to be, at least for me, impossible. 

[Alumínio he/him]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Eu não acho que isso funcionaria. A identidade bagunçaria tudo e impediria que funcionasse. Na melhor das hipóteses, você poderia conseguir algo parecido com o controle hemalúrgico que Vin faz com Koloss/Kandra - mas uma fusão completa de duas teias espirituais parece ser, pelo menos para mim, impossível. 

It doesn't have to be a complete fusion, an overlap would be enough, in my mind this can be solved with F-Alumin, right?

Anyway, I asked this question to see what possible alternatives to this can be generated, I consider myself the guy outside the company who comes up with a stupid idea but who will give you some insight

[alder24]

Just now, Alumínio said:

It doesn't have to be a complete fusion, an overlap would be enough, in my mind this can be solved with F-Alumin, right?

Anyway, I asked this question to see what possible alternatives to this can be generated, I consider myself the guy outside the company who comes up with a stupid idea but who will give you some insight

I still don't think that's possible in such a way. There is a merger of souls involved with the Nahel Bond - spren fills the cracks in the soul of their knight, but as you know, they are merely aware of each other and both get something vastly different from such a bond. But this involves Cognitive entities, not two humans. I don't think you could do the same with two humans, as both have different identities, and more importantly now that I think about it, both have physical bodies, and separate minds. 

And Feruchemical aluminum blanks identity, yes, it might help, but I still don't think you could do what you want. At best you would get something like a Nahel Bond or Hemalurgic control.

[Alumínio he/him]

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Ainda não acho que isso seja possível dessa forma. Há uma fusão de almas envolvidas no Nahel Bond - spren preenche as rachaduras na alma de seu cavaleiro, mas como você sabe, eles estão apenas conscientes um do outro e ambos obtêm algo muito diferente desse vínculo. Mas isto envolve entidades cognitivas, não dois humanos. Não acho que você possa fazer o mesmo com dois humanos, pois ambos têm identidades diferentes e, mais importante agora que penso nisso, ambos têm corpos físicos e mentes separadas. 

E a identidade dos blanks de alumínio da Feruchemical, sim, pode ajudar, mas ainda não acho que você possa fazer o que quiser. Na melhor das hipóteses, você obteria algo como Nahel Bond ou controle hemalúrgico.

In the case of a possible nahel bond between two people as you mentioned, what would one gain from the other?

I once read a WOB where someone asked Sanderson if Kelsier bonded with someone that someone would receive allomancy, the answer was a RAFO, but that means it is possible and both sides receive something, we see this directly in Roshar in the fauna and flora too, anyway, I ended up rambling, but my question is, would this be beneficial or not?

[Quantus he/him]

1 minute ago, Alumínio said:

In the case of a possible nahel bond between two people as you mentioned, what would one gain from the other?

I once read a WOB where someone asked Sanderson if Kelsier bonded with someone that someone would receive allomancy, the answer was a RAFO, but that means it is possible and both sides receive something, we see this directly in Roshar in the fauna and flora too, anyway, I ended up rambling, but my question is, would this be beneficial or not?

Not really, Kelsier is currently in a state that is very close to being a spren, that's all the RAFO is really leaving open there. 

To the OP, I once mused about the idea of Mutual Spiking. The idea, and it would be dangerous if possible at all, would be for two people in a very particular (and likely uncomfortable) pose to get the same thing spike out of and into each other at the same time (possibly with gold medallions to smooth the spiritual surgery.  My original idea was for something more as part of a cultural wedding and/or bonding ceremony, so I had my eye on a mutual Spiking of Identity into each other.  But I couldn't say a) if it's even possible or b) if it would provide any practical effects on their powers.  I figured at most it might let them share metalminds, if their Identities blended consistently enough to match.   

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Alumínio said:

In the case of a possible nahel bond between two people as you mentioned, what would one gain from the other?

It's NOT possible. You need Cognitive entities for that. Two spren can form a Nahel Bond, but two humans can't.

4 minutes ago, Alumínio said:

I once read a WOB where someone asked Sanderson if Kelsier bonded with someone that someone would receive allomancy, the answer was a RAFO

Kelsier isn't a human anymore, he is a Cognitive Shadow, he is a Cognitive entity.

4 minutes ago, Alumínio said:

but that means it is possible and both sides receive something, we see this directly in Roshar in the fauna and flora too, anyway, I ended up rambling, but my question is, would this be beneficial or not?

The same kind of bond as the Nahel Bond exists with Seons and even Nightblood, but the benefits in those cases aren't really big and visible - people don't get a lot of great powers from bonding Nightblood or Seons. Technically every native animal on Roshar forms a Nahel Bond with lesser spren, and you don't see them using Surges. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Alumínio said:

I've seen metal spike theories shared and recently I've read almost everything that @Confie em nós has posted within the site  ( So please give me your opinion, you are my reference in hemalurgy here

Excellent. It's great to know somebody loves to read my pseudo-insane ramblings. Thanks for recognizing me 

1 hour ago, Alumínio said:

Isoon thought about the idea of joint spiritual webs, perhaps with enough connection or some magical hack involving awakening there is the possibility of merging the spiritual web of two people who are close enough, like brothers for example. By doing this, perhaps we could overcome the hemalurgical failure or even share powers. Maybe people end up with a hive mind like those roshar conscientious Kremlins, I don't know

Okay, let me try to clarify what you're proposing- you're saying that if you have two people with very similar Connections (not really Identities, as those are supposed to be more or less completely unique unless some artificial tampering comes into play) you could try to merge or overlap their Spiritwebs in such a way that they would gain a hive mind, or perhaps be able to share their other powers with each other in a Spren to Radiant fashion?

This is an interesting idea, and I think that it may be able to work with the right tweaking. Basically, I think that you'd need something like a Luhel Bond forged between the two individuals to share powers, as Hemalurgic spikes hold their Investiture in the Physical Realm (another, more spiritual bond may also work, and perhaps that would instead be the way to go. I'm not totally certain which one would work better for this particular purpose, though Nahel Bond seems to work better with Cognitive entities such as Spren, so Luhel may be better in this circumstance). This could be accomplished with a duralumin Hemalurgic spike or perhaps another spike that contained enough Connection to both individuals.

Extra Connections between the two Hemlalurgists in question wouldn't strictly be necessary from what I can tell, but it might make any shared powers more effective between the two, similar to Kaladin's embodiment of Honor's ideals gave him more Connection to that Shard, thus making his powers slightly stronger than other Radiants of his Oath:

Spoiler

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Nouf

What does it mean that Kaladin is close to Honor, and how did that factor into him staying conscious while every other Windrunner in the tower didn't?

Brandon Sanderson

The nuts and bolts answer is, Kaladin basically was in a place where he could say the next oath, and should have said the next oath, and indeed knew the next oath, and it was on his tongue, and he refused to. So basically he was as close to being the next level of Knights Radiant as a person could humanly get, because everyone considered him ready except himself. He even knew that he was ready, but by saying it, it would require him to give up something that was precious to him, which is his feeling guilty. A precious part of his identity as he saw it. And he would have to relinquish that. That's the bulk of it.

The other bulk of it is, the level to which Kaladin tries to protect, the level to which Kaladin exemplifies the Ideals of the Windrunners, and indeed of the way that Honor would have all Knights Radiant act, is so over the top, in alignment with the way Honor would like it to be, that it could even be considered unhealthy. Remember, Honor didn't always encourage healthy relationships with things like the power, particularly later in his existence. So either way, Kaladin is just kind of extra aligned with that intent, if that makes any sense.

As for the hive mind, yes, I think that something like that would also be possible via Hemalurgy. I think that an actual full-blown hive mind would be somewhat difficult to accomplish, as you'd need to meddle with Identity, Connection, and probably memory to an extent as well. A web of telepathic/empathic communication would be far easier to achieve.

We've actually seen something like this already in TLM- Telsin was able to communicate telepathically with those pierced by Trellium spikes, and Bleeder was able to project her mind into Wax's in SoS (which she most likely did with her Trellium spike), meaning that Hemalurgy is capable of at least those specific feats, and more should be possible with more expertise.

As for the Hemalurgic failure, do you mean using two people with the same Identity to overcome Hemalurgy's newest limitation that prevents Compounding? If so, technically yes, it would be possible, but getting two people with the same exact spiritual Identity is going to be more or less functionally impossible without a sapient being's interferance:

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e874

Phantine

So... CS question here, I'm seeing identity as essentially a 'encryption' on the metalmind - the spike has the decryption key to existing metalminds, but when you encrypt a new one you use your personal encryption key with the spike's hardware, so you still have compounding access to the metalminds even after removing the spike.

Is it possible for there to be a 'key collision' with Identity? Two people just randomly end up making compatible metalminds, because the pieces of their Identities that the magic looks like happen to be the same.

Brandon Sanderson

This would be about as likely as two unrelated people ending up with the exact same genetic sequence.

But, so far as I understand, that WOULD be possible.

Lucadaw

So identical twins could share metalminds ?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Having a spike and a bearer with similar Identities may make the power it brings slightly more efficient, but I doubt it would allow for actual Compounding- to get that to work you would most likely either need to find a way to return to Hemalurgy's more aggressive roots to force the Spiritwebs to work together, or you'd need to either Blank the Identity of the spike, or find a way to imprint the Hemalurgist's own Identity onto said spike.

All in all, I think these are some great ideas and I enjoyed reading about and responding to them 

[..... he/him]

I have a theory that you could do something like this by spiking someone with a spike that is Double-sided bending it and then spiking two people in a fine point that works with the same Spike one on each endAt that point they would have one piece of soul that was exactly the same on both of them would be the same piece of spirit web and that would like act as a  connecter I think it would do something similar to that. what do you guys think it would do 

[Trusk'our he/him]

41 minutes ago, ..... said:

I have a theory that you could do something like this by spiking someone with a spike that is Double-sided bending it and then spiking two people in a fine point that works with the same Spike one on each endAt that point they would have one piece of soul that was exactly the same on both of them would be the same piece of spirit web and that would like act as a  connecter I think it would do something similar to that. what do you guys think it would do 

We actually had a thread on this not too long ago that talked about the possibility of using wires as Hemalurgic spikes. If it did work and you made a "spike" that pierced two people simultaneously, you'd have to consider that they wouldn't both be able to use it at 100% power since the Investiture would be divided among multiple people.

Connecting the two people's Spiritwebs would be a natural effect as well, but it would be difficult to find use for in many cases, as it would require a physical wire to connect the two people. There probably are still some interesting shenanigans that could happen there though- I just haven't thought about that particular use too much.