Fortune and Destiny

[Alumínio he/him]

What is the difference in fortune and destiny within the cosmere? I know that in hemalurgy there is a way to steal destiny and in ferruchemia how to store fortune, would it be the same thing and am I crazy or is there a difference?

but my primary source is MAG so the question may be stupid

[alder24]

21 minutes ago, Alumínio said:

What is the difference in fortune and destiny within the cosmere? I know that in hemalurgy there is a way to steal destiny and in ferruchemia how to store fortune, would it be the same thing and am I crazy or is there a difference?

but my primary source is MAG so the question may be stupid

Sadly, we don't know. Fortune is a Spiritual property related to seeing/feeling the future and a way to access the Spiritual Realm. It's a way of knowing things you would not know otherwise. But there is nothing about Destiny.

Spoiler

Wyndlerunner

Along the lines of chromium, according to the new Hemalurgy table, they "might steal destiny." Is destiny Fortune, or is it something new?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

I think the closest thing to destiny is in RoW:

Spoiler

Ishar saw that Odium saw Dalinar as the champion that would fight against him, and he tried to steal that with his powers.

 

[Voidmaker he/him]

Fortune and destiny are most likely different in the way that Fortune pertains to Futuresight, and destiny pertains to the future itself. Fortune could allow you to see the future, but stealing one's destiny would allow you to have the future of the individual you stole it from, not just see the future. Not to mention, the Hemalurgy chart says 'might steal destiny', not 'steal destiny', so it might be unconfirmed. I'm sure someone with more in-depth knowledge will probably have a better explanation, but this is kinda the 'short and simple' one. Considering 'destiny' hasn't really been an aspect of any magic, I'm reluctant to consider it as a valid part of the Cosmere, especially with the whole 'might' thing.

EDIT: Wanted to add, I rely on Coppermind and book knowledge, not anything related to MAG, so sorry if there's something countering it.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Voidwatcher
add-on

[Alumínio he/him]

9 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

A fortuna e o destino são provavelmente diferentes na forma como a Fortuna se refere à Visão do Futuro, e o destino se refere ao próprio futuro. A fortuna poderia permitir que você visse o futuro, mas roubar o destino de alguém permitiria que você tivesse o futuro da pessoa de quem o roubou, e não apenas ver o futuro. Sem mencionar que o gráfico da Hemalurgia diz 'pode roubar o destino', e não 'roubar o destino', então pode não estar confirmado. Tenho certeza de que alguém com conhecimento mais aprofundado provavelmente terá uma explicação melhor, mas esta é meio 'curta e simples'. Considerando que o 'destino' não tem sido realmente um aspecto de nenhuma magia, estou relutante em considerá-lo uma parte válida do Cosmere, especialmente com toda a coisa do 'poder'.

EDIT: Queria acrescentar que confio no Coppermind e no conhecimento do livro, não em nada relacionado ao MAG, desculpe se houver algo que o contrarie.

it makes sense, I don't like the idea of destiny either, it takes the fun out of the plot, I'm going to see destiny as the approximate result of what the Scadrians and Khriss think this is.

and don't worry, why should your answer displease me? I asked a question precisely because I don't know LOL

[Quantus he/him]

Fortune relates to future sight and peering into the Sprirtual Realm, in that WOB confirms that Atium is a Fortune effect.  We dont really know the limits of how it manifests but I believe it will always be more of a mental Sense of the future than it will be the literal reality-warping Luck effect we see so often in other things.  

Destiny is stealing a persons actual "destined" future, I think?  I imagine this as a more wholistic version of stealing individual Connections, and the closest analogy I have is the  alternate timeline "likelihood" mechanic of Forgery. So for example, Stealing the "Destiny" of royalty of the Rose Empire would open up a ton of possibly Soulstamps that wouldnt have been available to a peasant, or scadrian worldhoppper, etc.  This example sort of assumes there's not some implied Forward-Only aspect of "Destiny" in this context, and it could go either way with the way that sort of opposed directionality shows up in the Metallic Arts.  Edit:  But maybe you could steal the destiny of a Warlord intent on ruling the vorin lands or some such.  

Edited October 20, 2023 by Quantus

[Voidmaker he/him]

Just now, Alumínio said:

it makes sense, I don't like the idea of destiny either, it takes the fun out of the plot, I'm going to see destiny as the approximate result of what the Scadrians and Khriss think this is.

Agreed, I never liked destiny all that much, but it clearly exists, just usually small scale (Atium shadows foretell destiny, accurate Futuresight foretell destiny, etc.) but since there are ways of countering it, it's not 'true' destiny.

2 minutes ago, Alumínio said:

and don't worry, why should your answer displease me? I asked a question precisely because I don't know LOL

I might've just phrased it wrong or it was a translation error (I think the forums auto-translate because I noticed your quote was in a different language), I just meant I've never done anything relating to MAG so if it had knowledge of some form that invalidated what I said, sorry in advance for potential confusion, but I don't think that's the case since usually the books are most accurate.
 

[Alumínio he/him]

10 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

I might've just phrased it wrong or it was a translation error (I think the forums auto-translate because I noticed your quote was in a different language), I just meant I've never done anything relating to MAG so if it had knowledge of some form that invalidated what I said, sorry in advance for potential confusion, but I don't think that's the case since usually the books are most accurate.
 

about the automatic translation I don't think it's the website, I'm from Brazil so maybe it's a grammatical error on my part, my English came from games

[Voidmaker he/him]

10 minutes ago, Alumínio said:

about the automatic translation I don't think it's the website, I'm from Brazil so maybe it's a grammatical error on my part, my English came from games

Ah, okay. It's no big deal, your English is still very good, but I have a tendency of not fully elaborating on my points (assuming the overall thought gets across) which might have made it harder to read.

And again, Alder saves the day . I wonder if my original theory, that destiny can still be changed, could affect something like the stealing of destiny (in both Hemalurgy and Bondsmith cases).

Edited October 20, 2023 by Voidwatcher

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Alumínio said:

What is the difference in fortune and destiny within the cosmere? I know that in hemalurgy there is a way to steal destiny and in ferruchemia how to store fortune, would it be the same thing and am I crazy or is there a difference?

My current hypothesis for Destiny is that it is a person's own sense of Fortune that is filtered through their own Spiritweb. Basically, if you tap Fortune as a Feruchemist, you increase your own Fortune and Destiny, allowing you to more easily sense certain things in a precognitive manner, things that you would already have sensed, though it would have been weaker and possibly ignored without the use of Feruchemy. Another Feruchemist doing the same would sense different things, as their own Destiny is different.

A Hemalurgist who stole someone else's Destiny with a H-chromium spike would get the impulses and impressions that the Donor would have received, but since Hemalurgy grants a weakened version of what was taken and because the Hemalurgist has their own conflicting Destiny, they don't necessarily get the effects that Destiny would bring, hence the reason the Hemalurgy table says it might steal Destiny.

This is all purely speculative on my part though, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Alumínio he/him]

33 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Minha hipótese atual para Destino é que é o próprio senso de Fortuna de uma pessoa que é filtrado através de sua própria Teia Espiritual. Basicamente, se você usar a Fortuna como um Feruquímico, você aumenta sua própria Fortuna e Destino, permitindo-lhe sentir mais facilmente certas coisas de maneira precognitiva, coisas que você já teria sentido, embora teriam sido mais fracas e possivelmente ignoradas sem o uso de Feruquimia. Outro Feruquímico fazendo o mesmo sentiria coisas diferentes, já que seu próprio Destino é diferente.

Um Hemalurgista que roubou o Destino de outra pessoa com um pico de H-cromo receberia os impulsos e impressões que o Doador teria recebido, mas como a Hemalurgia concede uma versão enfraquecida do que foi tirado e porque o Hemalurgista tem seu próprio Destino conflitante, ele não necessariamente obter os efeitos que Destiny traria, daí a razão pela qual a tabela de Hemalurgia diz que pode roubar Destiny.

Tudo isso é puramente especulativo da minha parte, então aceite isso com cautela.

I understand your point and I think it's plausible for Hemalurgy to act this way, but imagine if this were MAG, my destiny is to free the skaa and I steal the destiny of some nobleman who would improve the efficiency of skaa slavery, taking into account what you He talked about impressions, because they were opposite would I lose my sense of destiny? Wouldn't the conclusions be reached? would it have opposite signs perhaps?

[Trusk'our he/him]

17 minutes ago, Alumínio said:

I understand your point and I think it's plausible for Hemalurgy to act this way, but imagine if this were MAG, my destiny is to free the skaa and I steal the destiny of some nobleman who would improve the efficiency of skaa slavery, taking into account what you He talked about impressions, because they were opposite would I lose my sense of destiny? Wouldn't the conclusions be reached? would it have opposite signs perhaps?

That's an interesting scenario. I'd say the stolen nobleman's Destiney would be weaker than your own, but it will affect your character's gut decision making, conflicting with it in a negative manner. You may just end up being unable to make decisions in either direction effectively.

It's also possible that the two Destinies will come to some form of consensus, fulfilling parts of both but not the whole of either. This scenario seems the most likely to me.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Rorzikel]

On 10/20/2023 at 1:44 PM, Trusk'our said:

My current hypothesis for Destiny is that it is a person's own sense of Fortune that is filtered through their own Spiritweb. Basically, if you tap Fortune as a Feruchemist, you increase your own Fortune and Destiny, allowing you to more easily sense certain things in a precognitive manner, things that you would already have sensed, though it would have been weaker and possibly ignored without the use of Feruchemy. Another Feruchemist doing the same would sense different things, as their own Destiny is different.

My theories on "destiny" is that it is the part of the spiritweb that Brandon talks about when he says that the soul knows how old you are, and that property being what made the Lord Ruler age to dust.

You're "destined" to live a certain lifespan, and maybe have some genetic conditions that healing can't fix either as it is part of your ideal. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Rorzikel said:

My theories on "destiny" is that it is the part of the spiritweb that Brandon talks about when he says that the soul knows how old you are, and that property being what made the Lord Ruler age to dust.

You're "destined" to live a certain lifespan, and maybe have some genetic conditions that healing can't fix either as it is part of your ideal. 

Perhaps, though I think that age may be linked more to Connection to your time of birth than Destiny.

Spoiler

Doom-Slayer

So how do the exact mechanics of Feruchemy in relation to Compounding work?

This confusion is primarily around how [the Lord Ruler] gets his near infinite age.

Okay. So first off, I understand the concept of how they work. Feruchemy is net zero, Allomancy is net positive, combine them and you end with a net positive Feruchemy ability.

So how Feruchemy normally works... you take say weight, store half your normal weight and then you can access it whenever you want. So you (originally X weight) are taking A weight, storing it, and then you are at (X-A) weight, with access to A. So we have a metalmind that store magnitude with the efficiency of how its received based on how quickly or slowly it is drawn upon.

All the metalminds except atium seem to act this way. Atium seems to work as storing magnitude/time rather than just magnitude. The way I understand it is that say a 30 year old person becomes 50 years old for 1 day, this would give access to 20 years difference for a 1 day period.

The Lord Ruler then exploits this by gaining access to say 20 years difference over 10 days (magnification by Compounding) which he then slowly feeds into himself to lower his age.

Why this difference? I'm assuming its to maintain a neutral "body age" because with just magnitude a person could permanently make themselves younger by Compounding.

With just magnitude of "20 years of youth" being stored, if the Lord Ruler magnified it, he could turn it into "200 years of youth" and then he would never need the constant stream off youth (and wouldn't have died without the bracelets)

Hope this makes sense.

Brandon Sanderson

All right, so there are a few things you have to understand about cosmere magics to grok all of this.

First, is that magics can be hacked together. You'll see more of this in the future of the cosmere, but an early one is the hack here--where you're essentially powering Feruchemy with Allomancy. (A little more complex than that, but it seems like you get the idea.)

The piece you're missing is the nature of a person's Spiritual aspect. This is similar to a Platonic idea--the idea that there's a perfect version of everyone somewhere. It's a mix of their connections to places, people, and times with raw Investiture. The soul, you might say.

(Note that over time, a person's perception of themselves shapes their Cognitive aspect as well, and the Cognitive aspect can interfere with the Spiritual aspect trying to make the Physical aspect repair itself.) Healing in the cosmere often works by aligning your Physical self with your Spiritual self--making the Physical regrow. More powerful forms of Investiture can repair the soul as well.

However, your age is part of your Connection to places, people, and times. Your soul "knows" things, like where you were born, what Investiture you are aligned with, and--yes--how old you are. When you're healing yourself, you're restoring yourself to a perfect state--when you're done, everything is good. When you're changing your age, however, you are transforming yourself to something unnatural. Against what your soul understands to be true.

So the Spiritual aspect will push for a restoration to the way you should be. With this Compounding hack, you're not changing connection; it's a purely Physical Realm change.

This dichotomy cannot remain for long. And the greater the disparity, the more pressure the spirit will exert. Ten or twenty years won't matter much. A thousand will matter a lot. So the only way to use Compounding to change your age is to store up all this extra youth in a metalmind, then be constantly tapping it to counteract the soul's attempt to restore you to how you should be.

Yes, all of this means there are FAR more efficient means of counteracting aging than the one used by the Lord Ruler. It's a hack, and not meant to be terribly efficient. Eventually, he wouldn't have been able to maintain himself this way at all. Changing Connection (or even involving ones Cognitive Aspect a little more) would have been far more efficient, though actively more difficult.

Though this is the point where I ping [Peter Ahlstrom] and get him to double-check all this. Once in a while, my fingers still type the wrong term in places. (See silvereye vs tineye.)

It also may be that Destiny is linked to one's natural talent, such as how Kaladin was highly talented with the spear and quickly gained greater aptitude with it despite his relative youth or Vin being such a competent Allomancer despite her relative lack of experience. This could potentially mean that Hemalurgic chromium could allow someone to steal talents from others, but this is purely hypothetical as of right now.