Repurposing Lifeless

[Trusk'our he/him]

Let's say you have a Lifeless that was made from the body of a porter, somebody who was very strong and capable, yet who had never once picked up a sword. Then you decide to hand them over to a trainer to condition them to be your bodyguard.

Will the Lifeless be able to be trained to act as effectively as a Lifeless who was originally a soldier in life and then made into a Lifeless? Basically, can you train a Lifeless new skills effectively?

[alder24]

51 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Let's say you have a Lifeless that was made from the body of a porter, somebody who was very strong and capable, yet who had never once picked up a sword. Then you decide to hand them over to a trainer to condition them to be your bodyguard.

Will the Lifeless be able to be trained to act as effectively as a Lifeless who was originally a soldier in life and then made into a Lifeless? Basically, can you train a Lifeless new skills effectively?

No, while they can learn how to fight, they are dead, their body can't grow, so their muscles can't grow as well and become stronger and faster even if trained.

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

No, while they can learn how to fight, they are dead, their body can't grow, so their muscles can't grow as well and become stronger and faster even if trained.

When Lightsong goes to change the command phrase of all the forty-thousand Lifeless in the Lifeless Enclave he mentions that there is a space for them to exercise. Why would they need that space if they did not have the need to exercise to maintain their muscles?

I mostly meant the mental aspects of training, though physical conditioning would be useful as well.

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

When Lightsong goes to change the command phrase of all the forty-thousand Lifeless in the Lifeless Enclave he mentions that there is a space for them to exercise. Why would they need that space if they did not have the need to exercise to maintain their muscles?

I mostly meant the mental aspects of training, though physical conditioning would be useful as well.

Oh right, I knew there was a mention of some kind of training of Lifeless, but I couldn't find it. 

But that's weird. They're dead, their muscles shouldn't grow. But they can heal to a certain degree so maybe they aren't that dead as it looks like? Just like they are more aware than others think. ch 33:

Quote

"No wound can ever be perfectly fixed on a Lifeless, though he will heal some."
[...]
“Though he’ll kind of heal,” Denth said, “it’s best to use something strong in the repair, so the wound doesn’t rip apart again.”

I still think there would be a certain level of how much you can train then and make them exercise, which makes already trained and fit bodies more beneficial and economical. Plus they can just go do their duty immediately after Awakening, unlike the body of a potter. If they can heal only in a limited way, the same would apply to exercising and training. That's my guess.

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Oh right, I knew there was a mention of some kind of training of Lifeless, but I couldn't find it. 

But that's weird. They're dead, their muscles shouldn't grow. But they can heal to a certain degree so maybe they aren't that dead as it looks like? Just like they are more aware than others think. ch 33:

I still think there would be a certain level of how much you can train then and make them exercise, which makes already trained and fit bodies more beneficial and economical. Plus they can just go do their duty immediately after Awakening, unlike the body of a potter. If they can heal only in a limited way, the same would apply to exercising and training. That's my guess.

Makes sense to me- they're kind of alive, so they can kind of heal, grow muscle, and learn.

[Treamayne]

On 10/15/2023 at 11:22 AM, Trusk'our said:

Let's say you have a Lifeless that was made from the body of a porter, somebody who was very strong and capable, yet who had never once picked up a sword. Then you decide to hand them over to a trainer to condition them to be your bodyguard.

Will the Lifeless be able to be trained to act as effectively as a Lifeless who was originally a soldier in life and then made into a Lifeless? Basically, can you train a Lifeless new skills effectively?

The answer is almost entirely dependant on other factors - the Command that Awakened the Lifeless, the Command visualization, which breath was used to awaken the Lifeless**, etc.

WoBs and such:

Spoiler

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Chapter Forty-Two Annotations

Lightsong Irritates Allmother's Priestesses

I believe I mentioned earlier why the squirrel is more capable than Llarimar expected it to be. The quality of the Commands (meaning the skill of the Awakener) is very important to Lifeless, particularly those who might not have been very skilled in life to begin with.

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TurtletheFlsh

What would happen if you created a Lifeless with more Breath then is necessary? Would they be more or completely human or just a Lifeless that's holding more Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

Lifeless with more Breath are an interesting situation. It's quite possible for the BREATH to start taking on a personality, much like a Cognitive Shadow, related to the individual. Whether or not it is actually them, though, is a big question. Note, this doesn't always happen. Often, dumping a lot of Breath in them is like sticking it in an inanimate object with no Command.

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Oudeis16

If Bob the Awakener Awakened fifty straw men to dance around, then died, then Returned as FormerBob the Appropriately Named, would FormerBob be able to reclaim the Breath from the straw men in the normal fashion (once he learned the "Your Breath to Mine" Command)?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. He has enough of his original Identity, and the spiritual connection would remain.

sonofstannis

What if he instead were reincarnated as a lifeless? Is there a way he could reclaim it then?

Brandon Sanderson

Lifeless have someone else's investiture replacing their own. (As opposed to Returned, who are augmented.) Depends on how much of them is left, and if they can achieve sapience again, but I'd say this is unlikely.

WeiryWriter**

What if the Lifeless is Awakened with their own Breath? (i.e. they gave it away right before they died and the person they gave it to then used it in the Awakening)

Brandon Sanderson

This has happened already in the world, and it does help.

-Nayrb

Did this happen "on screen"?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Implied to be Clod here:

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Annotations to Ch 47

Lightsong Sees the Lifeless and Takes Command of Them

They keep them in the dark. This is a bad idea. They don't realize it, but the Lifeless are far more aware than everyone assumes. Clod in this book is a foreshadowing of that, and there won't be much more about it in the rest of the novel.

Quote

Doc_John (paraphrased)

Hey! If you had the correct Intent in mind, could you Command a Lifeless to follow a Knight's Radiant Ideal? Like could you command it to "Protect those who cannot protect themselves"

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, this would be possible, though it would depend on the Lifeless and circumstances on how good a job they do at it. The command is a little abstract, and could end up not working as well as you want it to.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Duxredux he/him]

On 10/15/2023 at 9:22 AM, Trusk'our said:

Let's say you have a Lifeless that was made from the body of a porter, somebody who was very strong and capable, yet who had never once picked up a sword. Then you decide to hand them over to a trainer to condition them to be your bodyguard.

Will the Lifeless be able to be trained to act as effectively as a Lifeless who was originally a soldier in life and then made into a Lifeless? Basically, can you train a Lifeless new skills effectively?

I'd say almost definitely. 40,000 Lifeless is the bulk of the Hallnedren military though the command and support structure is made of the living. It seems pretty unlikely that the entire army is comprised of former soldiers and guards when Lifeless makes the bulk of the army anyway. Lifeless also participate in patrols, and perform peacekeeping duties so it seems pretty likely that many were trained to new responsibilities after the deceased was purchased. Will they be as effective as a career soldier who died and then was Awakened? Probably not, but then they are years or decades behind in training.

That said, if you don't mine me asking for your expertise, @Treamayne, do you have an estimate on how much a soldier would have to learn just in the course of performing their regular duties, be it patrols or specific peacekeeping duties?

As a side note, now that I think about medical laws and wills might be weird in Hallendren. "Do not resuscitate. If my body is in good condition, let me die and sell the corpse to the army and reimburse my family" could totally be a thing. Malpractice lawsuits could be really tricky.

[Treamayne]

11 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

As a side note, now that I think about medical laws and wills might be weird in Hallendren. "Do not resuscitate. If my body is in good condition, let me die and sell the corpse to the army and reimburse my family" could totally be a thing. Malpractice lawsuits could be really tricky.

As could the opposite - "My body is not to be used for Awakening. Cremate immediately."

12 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

That said, if you don't mine me asking for your expertise, @Treamayne, do you have an estimate on how much a soldier would have to learn just in the course of performing their regular duties, be it patrols or specific peacekeeping duties?

Well, there are a lot of considerations:

• Soldiering is not much like Bodyguarding. They are very different skill sets.
  • WoK Prime did a fairly decent job of noting many dinstinctions, even if they were largely removed from the final WoK/WoR (see below).
• We don't know who Awakens the Hallendren Lifeless Soldiers or what process they use. 
  • However, we do see how Vasher Awakens "bodyguard cloak", and we see how that functions while Awakened - which implies that much can be smoothed over with proper visualization paired with the correct Command. 
  • It's likely that the Lifeless Solders' Command visualtions take the place of much of the techniques. Since there are two different Commands that matter*, these can likely be layered for a nuanced result - with a very experienced high-Heighteneing Priest Awakening with Lifeless (making it better able to follow orders), and a Career Soldier implementing the Commands for thier normal operations (for better visualization of military techniques).  
• For being a Soldier (or even Patrolling) it's important to learn:
  • Use of weapons, Hand-to-hand, teamwork, task delegation and back-up (you should not only know your duties in the squad - but know the duties of others well enough to step in if they are wounded - or call out if a step is missed due to task saturation or other CRM items),  
• For being a bodyguard it's important to know:
  • Threat assessments (many different fighting styles - or at least their markers to recognize threats), Situational Awareness (especially if working as a single bodyguard), planning and contingencies, lethal and non-lethal threat mitigation, how to adjust to evolving situations and how to improvise solutions

TWoK-P Ch 22:

Spoiler

Merin grunted in pain, losing his rhythm as Vasher pressed forward, bowling over him and knocking him to the ground.

Merin sighed, resting back in the sand, staring up into the darkening sky. It was completely free of clouds—during spring and fall, the sky was often cloudy, even when no highstorm was approaching. During the summer, however, even a hint of rainfall was too much to expect.

“You keep leaving your left side open,” Vasher said. “You’re not a spearman any more—you don’t have a shield to protect you.”

“I trained with a spear and shield for two years,” Merin replied. “I can’t expect to overcome my reflexes in two months.”

“Excuses are fine until they kill you,” Vasher said. “Come on—we haven’t been at it that long.”

Warbreaker

Spoiler

Ch 21:

Quote

Vasher knelt, putting a hand on the creature.

“Awaken to my Breath,” he Commanded, “serve my needs, live at my Command and my word. Fallen Rope.”

Those last words, “fallen rope,” formed the security phrase. Vasher could have chosen anything, but he picked the first thing that came to mind.

One Breath was leached from his body, going down into the small rodent’s corpse. The thing began to twitch. That was a Breath Vasher would never be able to recover, for creating a Lifeless was a permanent act. The squirrel lost all color, bleeding to grey, the Awakening feeding off the body’s own colors to help fuel the transformation. The squirrel had been grey in the first place, so the difference was tough to see. That’s why Vasher liked to use them.

“Fallen Rope,” he said to the creature, its grey eyes looking up at him. The security phrase pronounced, Vasher could now imprint the creature with an order, much as he did when performing a standard Awakening. “Make noise. Run around. Bite people who are not me. Fallen Rope.” The second use of the words closed its impressionability, so it could no longer be Commanded.

Annotations to Ch 21:

Quote

The better your imagining of the Command when you make it (not the orders you give it, but the one when you give it the Breath), the more intelligent and capable of following orders the Lifeless is. Later in the book, for instance, people are surprised at how good this little squirrel is at doing what it is told.