Shattering of the big guy

[Wyndle88 he/him]

Hello my favourite peeps,

I had a thought. We now that Adonalsium was shattered by 16 individuals a long time ago using 4 Dawnshards. Each of these individuals picked up 1/16th of Adonalsium and Ascended to being SHARDS. They had certain agreements in place and they left for their individual pursuits henceforth. 

We also know Hoid was present at the Shattering. He was offered one of the 16 and he refused ( maybe he was offered one he didn't particularly want). But we know that he was the holder of a dawnshard for a long time ( maybe even since the Shattering ). This particular Dawnshard is unique in the way how it alters the user's spirit web so that he can't cause harm ( I would say the irl Gandhi among the dawnshards preaching non violence etc. ).  I further think the 16 stipulated Hoid to be the bearer of non violent Dawnshard to ensure their own safety fearing Hoid would use offensive Dawnshard to attack one or more of the 16.

 

I also assume Frost to be another character present at the Shattering and could have possibly picked up another Dawnshard , maybe an attacking one. Maybe this is the reason none of the Shards had tried to claim Token as Frost is waiting there with a Dawnshard in case some Shards get the wrong idea. 

 

Now I'm thinking who took over the remaining 2 Dawnshards? Did one of the 16 take up dawnshards as well?

 

I hope this is the correct part of the forum to discuss this. Any thoughts? Plausible?

 

Cheers guys

 

 

[alder24]

6 hours ago, Wyndle88 said:

But we know that he was the holder of a dawnshard for a long time ( maybe even since the Shattering ). This particular Dawnshard is unique in the way how it alters the user's spirit web so that he can't cause harm ( I would say the irl Gandhi among the dawnshards preaching non violence etc. ). 

Not exactly - we know he held a Dawnshard, most likely before the Shattering (maybe during too), and we know that different Dawnshards have different effects, but one is special - we don't know if this one special is Hoid's Dawnshard or not.

Spoiler

/u/ph4mp573r

[Hoid] was beheaded in Dragonsteel Prime and the Dawnshard is what regrew his head. He makes a crack about always thinking his head would have grown a new body, not vice versa, as he stares at his own severed head.

/u/sambadaemon

Slightly related: If the Dawnshard let Hoid regrow his entire head, will it eventually give Rysn back the use of her legs?

Peter Ahlstrom

The different dawnshards have different powers.

Information subject to change when it appears in canon.

General Reddit 2022 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Curtis

Could you write something about Dawnshards that we don't/won't know?

Brandon

One Dawnshard is different from all the rest. 

Words of Radiance release party (March 3, 2014)

 

6 hours ago, Wyndle88 said:

I further think the 16 stipulated Hoid to be the bearer of non violent Dawnshard to ensure their own safety fearing Hoid would use offensive Dawnshard to attack one or more of the 16.

I don't think we know for sure if actively being a Dawnshard also prevents you from causing harm, or this is just some after effect of holding it.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid was a Dawnshard at some point in the deep past, and the reason he (even still) cannot physically harm people, or even eat meat, is related to the changes this made to his spirit. (Consider this the same fundamental principle as savanthood.) The few of you who have read Dragonsteel know that him being a Dawnshard was also the source of his immortality in that book, though the terms were different back then. (The word Dawnshard was never mentioned, for example--though the primary story of Dragonsteel (which is no longer canon) was about several people who unwittingly become Dawnshards.)

And a preemptive RAFO to all questions on this point.

Dawnshard Annotations (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

6 hours ago, Wyndle88 said:

I also assume Frost to be another character present at the Shattering and could have possibly picked up another Dawnshard , maybe an attacking one. Maybe this is the reason none of the Shards had tried to claim Token as Frost is waiting there with a Dawnshard in case some Shards get the wrong idea. 

I personally also believe that Frost was present during the Shattering but I don't think he was a Dawnshard - Hoid said that Frost recently gained another source of immortality, on top of his natural dragon immortality. If he was a Dawnshard back then, he would have a second source of immortality and wouldn't "need" a third one.

Spoiler

LewsTherinTelescope

Why does Hoid in his letter to Frost say, "as you are now essentially immortal"? To our understanding, as a dragon Frost would have always been ageless. Is this understanding incorrect, or is there something else going on with him?

Brandon Sanderson

There is something else going on with him. That is a good question.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

6 hours ago, Wyndle88 said:

Now I'm thinking who took over the remaining 2 Dawnshards? Did one of the 16 take up dawnshards as well?

I hope this is the correct part of the forum to discuss this. Any thoughts? Plausible?

Cheers guys

Yes, I believe some of the 16 Vessels were Dawnshards during the Shattering. That's the most logical solution. I think either Honor or Cultivation were a Dawnshard, because there was a Dawnshard present on Ashyn. Odium is also a likely candidate, he might use it to Splinter Shards or give it to Ashynite for experimentations, but I doubt he would give it away instead of instantly using it to Splinter Honor and Cultivation. Also Rayse was known to be not a nice person, so I doubt others would allow him to become a Dawnshard and have it as Odium.

Spoiler

Questioner

Odium has a history of breaking Shards. In order to do that, it feels like he must have something that gives him an edge over the other Shards. I’m curious if Odium (Taravangian) possesses anything further than the Shard of Adonalsium?

Brandon Sanderson

He does not have anything more than Odium. But he does have an edge.

Questioner

Like a Dawnshard?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a Dawnshard. No, if he had a Dawnshard, that would be very, very bad.

Footnote: Later in this Q&A, Brandon emphasized that Ruin had an "edge" over Preservation due to their power imbalance.
Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

There was a theory suggesting that there are/were 2 Dawnshards on Roshar, one used on Ashyn causing the destruction, the other was something else and is somewhere else (the vision Dalinar saw at the end of WoR looks like what Rysn experienced when she became a Dawnshard, and Honor said Dawnshards - plural). I think that's likely to be true, in this case both Honor and Cultivation were Dawnshards, and Cultivation left hers on Ashyn - she once visited Ashyn and invested in it.

Spoiler

Questioner

You have talked about writing a book about Ashyn, the first planet in the Rosharan system. You said that they have a magic system based on disease, but they are currently without a Shard. Can you tell us what the source of that magic system is?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of the magic systems in the cosmere, I kind of in my head differentiate kind of the primary worlds and the secondary worlds. And even on the secondary worlds, there is magic. And any place that a Shard has been in presence is gonna leave behind an aftereffect, but it's not always that. I would call most of the magic on Ashyn Cultivation-based, most likely. And Cultivation's in the system, but has only briefly been to that planet. But it doesn't mean that... basically, it's kind of the level of Investiture. If you go to Scadrial, on Scadrial, you're gonna have a high percentage of the population, cosmereologically, that are gonna have access to one of the Hemalurgic [Metallic] arts, right? Same thing on Roshar. And indeed, the people are going to be Invested on a level that is beyond the others. This is my in-world canon reason that people just don't come down with colds very often or have tooth decay very often, and things like that. On the primary Shardworlds, we're talking about people who are just naturally, highly Invested.

All the other worlds, though, you're still gonna have the occasional pop-up of magic, here and there. You're still gonna have effects of being in the cosmere, and things like that. Just much smaller chances. And the magic's probably going to be less likely to be planet-destroying potential, and things like that, like happened on Ashyn.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021)

 

So in my opinion both Honor and Cultivation were Dawnshards, Hoid as well, but Frost not, that leaves one more Dawnshards in the hands of 16. It's hard to speculate where it could be, as we don't know about another world, or place, where any Dawnshard was mentioned, nor do we know about massive events like the one on Ashyn. I doubt it's on Scadrial, so Ruin and Preservation are out, not on Sel because Aona and Skai would use it to defend themself, not Ambition for the same reason, and not Odium because he's too selfish to just give it away. That still leaves 8 different Vessels/Shards who could have the last Dawnshard. It wasn’t mentioned anywhere, no great, impossible events happened anywhere or anything like this. This will remain a mystery for now.

For a moment I was thinking if the Well of Ascension on Scadrial could hold a Dawnshard, on top of Preservation's investiture, because of how powerful it was and it certainly fits to effects of a Dawnshard we saw on Ashyn, but I don't think that was the case. Every description and WoBs about the Well do not indicate something else going on then just massive amounts of Preservation's investiture and temporary Ascension - and holding a significant fraction of Shard's power would allow you to do what we know was done to Scadrial. Another thing is that Ascendants weren't immortal after it - Rashek had to use compounding to stop his aging, he wouldn't need it if he held a Dawnshard in the Well. And if Preservation had access to a Dawnshard, why not use it in a more spectacular way against Ruin (Splintering is out of the question because of his nature but I'm sure he could do more than what he did)? Therefore I have to conclude that this one extraordinary show of power in Cosmere is not a result of any Dawnshard, but just a massive amount of investiture and temporary Ascension to Preservation, which all WoBs and information from books support.

Edited October 15, 2023 by alder24

[Treamayne]

36 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I doubt it's on Scadrial, so Ruin and Preservation are out

I would not rule this out. Even though we know the they worked together to create Scadrial does not mean they didn't use one of the Dawnshards to help accomplish that feat. Though I would concur that it is unlikely that the Dawnshard remained on Scadrial after it's creation. . . 

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I would not rule this out. Even though we know the they worked together to create Scadrial does not mean they didn't use one of the Dawnshards to help accomplish that feat. Though I would concur that it is unlikely that the Dawnshard remained on Scadrial after it's creation. . . 

Good point, but I doubt two Shards would need a Dawnshard to create a planet with life and humans. 

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Good point, but I doubt two Shards would need a Dawnshard to create a planet with life and humans. 

Right,  but I also did not say "need" - I said even though they might not have needed it, does not rule out that they had access to one (possibly Leras) and used it.