shards Harmony's Many Swords

[Sophrosyne he/him]

I think Harmony is a misnomer and I doubt that’s controversial.  I feel it important to note that as far as I know the idea that Ruin is stronger than Preservation within Harmony has never been confirmed by a reliable source. Kel while awesome and smart is NOT an authority on shards.

Consider that together Leras and Ati MADE a planet. That means that when evenly matched they could create. But Leras alone could only make a vague plan and hope that humans would sort it out. That, to me, sounds much more like what Sazed managed with his sword plan. I don’t know how but I think that *Preservation* is actually stronger within Harmony (Guess Fermata would be a better name in this case)

So here's the thought. Sazed simply makes several highly invested people. They would likely need to be near to Elantrian levels, maybe greater. There are countless issues here but I think it’d be possible to even out the shards in this way whilst making Swords to defend the world.

One issue that I’m sure will be brought up is the potential for abuse but I don’t think it’s there. That amount of Preservation in someone could force them to stagnate, locking their personality into whatever it was at the moment of investment and prevent any LR situations.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Sophrosyne

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

20 minutes ago, Sophrosyne said:

I think Harmony is a misnomer and I doubt that’s controversial.  I feel it important to note that as far as I know the idea that Ruin is stronger than Preservation within Harmony has never been confirmed by a reliable source. Kel while awesome and smart is NOT an authority on shards.

Kelsier was a Shard for a little while, he would know quite well the difference in power of both Ruin and Preservation when he was Ascended in Secret History.

21 minutes ago, Sophrosyne said:

Consider that together Leras and Ati MADE a planet. That means that when evenly matched they could create. But Leras alone could only make a vague plan and hope that humans would sort it out. That, to me, sounds much more like what Sazed managed with his sword plan. I don’t know how but I think that *Preservation* is actually stronger within Harmony (Guess Fermata would be a better name in this case)

This theory doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, since it was explicitly confirmed that Preservation was a little weaker than Ruin. Since Preservation placed a little more of his power into Scadrians than Ruin. Then he had to strip Ruin of some of his power to balance them out again, making the Pits of Hathsin. Then Sazed became Harmony and the extra power of Ruin is still out there, probably as part of Harmony since his slide into Discord only started relatively recently, perhaps indicating that Harmony absorbed the part of Ruin's power that was separated.

Either way I don't think it's more Preservation that's causing the problem.

28 minutes ago, Sophrosyne said:

So here's the thought. Sazed simply makes several highly invested people. They would likely need to be near to Elantrian levels, maybe greater. There are countless issues here but I think it’d be possible to even out the shards in this way whilst making Swords to defend the world.

Now this is an interesting solution, potentally better than just recreating the Pits in order to balance the amount of power in the Shards. Since if Atium/Lerasium were made available again on the same scale as the Pits of Hathsin in Era 1, then many people could get their hands on them, including Trell's forces. But if the power were to be stored in people then they could hold onto the power and protect themselves. If Preservation is the problem like you say then this solution would lead to the creation of stupidly powerful Mistborn. Like potentially Lord Ruler levels.

Though if the problems lie with Ruin then I'm curious about how this would work, could a human even survive being directly Invested by Ruin? What abilities would they gain? 

34 minutes ago, Sophrosyne said:

One issue that I’m sure will be brought up is the potential for abuse but I don’t think it’s there. That amount of Preservation in someone could force them to stagnate, locking their personality into whatever it was at the moment of investment and prevent any LR situations.

Same thing with this, since Scadrians have a little more Preservation than Ruin, what would happen if they had more Ruin?

[Sophrosyne he/him]

28 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Kelsier was a Shard for a little while, he would know quite well the difference in power of both Ruin and Preservation when he was Ascended in Secret History.

You have a point here if anyone would know it's Kelsier but let's remember that all parties admitted Ati had the exp advantage and the simple fact that Kelsier ISN'T wll studied means we have to consider the possibly he's wrong.

28 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Either way I don't think it's more Preservation that's causing the problem.

Fair.

28 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Though if the problems lie with Ruin then I'm curious about how this would work, could a human even survive being directly Invested by Ruin? What abilities would they gain? 

Same thing with this, since Scadrians have a little more Preservation than Ruin, what would happen if they had more Ruin?

Now there's a thought. as far as a human being directly invested I'm sure we haven't seen enough to know. Elantrian's are largely unchanged but Dor is... weird. and we've not seen a Returned before they were invested so no telling.
As far as abilities I think the easy answer is something like Division surgebinding or a Ruin powered mistborn.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Sophrosyne
Formating

[alder24]

5 hours ago, Sophrosyne said:

Kel while awesome and smart is NOT an authority on shards.

Truthfully, Kel was Preservation, he is a Sliver, so technically he is one of the most qualified people on this matter.

5 hours ago, Sophrosyne said:

But Leras alone could only make a vague plan and hope that humans would sort it out.

Preservation actually is one of the best when it comes to predicting the future. He saw a lot of what was going to happen and created Terris prophecies to help people do what needed to be done. That doesn't mean that Harmony is as good at that. Ruin on the other hand was not so good at that.

Spoiler

Chaos

How were the Terris Prophecies created in the first place? Every other magic related thing is quite logically explained in terms of Ruin and Preservation, except that one.

Brandon Sanderson

The Terris prophecies were created by Preservation before he attempted his imprisonment. He knew that he wouldn't be able to do much for the world after he did what he did, and he foresaw a LOT of what was to come.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

Spoiler

Firerust

How did Preservation create the Terris prophecies in the first place, to make them known to people?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm gonna RAFO that, just because it gets really sticky when I have to explain this exactly, and I'm gonna shy away from that right now.

The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018)

 

5 hours ago, Sophrosyne said:

That, to me, sounds much more like what Sazed managed with his sword plan.

Keep in mind, in TLM Harmony's future sight was blinded by Autonomy. TLM ch 19:

Quote

No,” Harmony said softly. “It Invested the planet. Invested … me. What you saw was a shroud, Waxillium. I responded too slowly. It is … a failing that grows more dangerous in me. By the time I realized what was happening, that shroud had come over me. It doesn’t hurt, it merely dampens my ability to see.”
“You mean…”
“I don’t know what’s happening,” Harmony said softly, staring down at the planet. “What is Trell doing? What are they planning? They put that haze up as a kind of smoke screen. When I attacked it, the haze infected my ability to see the future. Temporarily. I will be rid of it in a few years. That’s nothing on the timescale of gods. And yet…”

 

5 hours ago, Sophrosyne said:

I don’t know how but I think that *Preservation* is actually stronger within Harmony (Guess Fermata would be a better name in this case)

We know from Ars Arcanum that Ruin is subservient to Preservation in Harmony. That might mean that Preservation is stronger OR that Sazed choses to Preserve more than to Ruin, which causes Ruin to be subservient no matter who is stronger.

Quote

I believe that this has something to do with the nature of Ruin’s subservience to Preservation in the current dual vessel known as Harmony.

But if Preservation is now stronger than Ruin then why? How? It was the opposite before so why now Preservation, who invested in people more than Ruin, is stronger than Ruin? Where did the extra Ruin investiture go? That doesn't really make sense to me.

Also remember, Atium cycle was delayed - Kelsier destroying the Pits of Hathsin stopped the cycle of Atium for 300 years, 300 had passed, now this investiture of Ruin is freed, but instead of returning to make more Atium (we know from SoS it doesn't do that, the Pits are empty) it would most likely return to Harmony, causing imbalance in favor of Ruin. This investiture really has no other place to go. But for Preservation to be stronger than Ruin, Harmony would need to get rid of twice as much investiture as it was locked in Atium. We don’t see anything like that.

 

5 hours ago, Sophrosyne said:

So here's the thought. Sazed simply makes several highly invested people. They would likely need to be near to Elantrian levels, maybe greater. There are countless issues here but I think it’d be possible to even out the shards in this way whilst making Swords to defend the world.

Swords are of Ruin, not Preservation. SoS ch 21:

Quote

“I will need to ask Harmony,” TenSoon said, “if I have failed Him in killing this day.” His voice was the same gravelly growl as before, when he’d inhabited the wolfhound’s body.
“Why would he care?” Wax said, still sick. “He uses me to kill all the time.”
“You are His Ruin,” TenSoon said. “I am His Preservation.”
Wax stood in silence amid the dead and dying and lowered his shotgun, trying to suppress the immediate feeling of indignation he felt. Was that all he was to Harmony? A killer? A destroyer?

I like to call the other one a Shield - Wayne was Harmony's Shield, while Wax was his Sword. Wayne wasn't killing, while Wax was.

Yes, that's possible but even investing people to the amount of Elantrians or CS would be too little. What's better is to create an Avatar invested only by the stronger part of him. That might be a much better way out. 

Spoiler

little wilson

Are Ruin and Preservation separate in Sazed or are they fully combined together like can he give one of them, or does he have to give both.

Brandon Sanderson

They are not fully combined. I mean that's not the way this works. He could pull off a piece of one even and make-- stuff like that. That's totally, totally viable. [Cosmere spoilers out]

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

 

5 hours ago, Sophrosyne said:

One issue that I’m sure will be brought up is the potential for abuse but I don’t think it’s there. That amount of Preservation in someone could force them to stagnate, locking their personality into whatever it was at the moment of investment and prevent any LR situations.

Mistborn have more Preservation in them than normal people and yet they don't stagnate. They kill a lot tbf. Of course Harmony can invest them directly in a way that would not grant them Metallic Arts. Or he could make Splinters, like Spren. Overall this is a good solution.

Spoiler

Blightsong (paraphrased)

Does Harmony have any Splinters?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Do you mean like in his fingers? *Brandon has a coy smile. Questioner looks at him like "you know what I mean you fool". Brandon laughs.* No, he does not have Splinters right now. Good question.

Minicon 2015 (April 2, 2015)

 

4 hours ago, Sophrosyne said:

You have a point here if anyone would know it's Kelsier but let's remember that all parties admitted Ati had the exp advantage and the simple fact that Kelsier ISN'T wll studied means we have to consider the possibly he's wrong.

Kel wasn't well educated, him being a Shard for a short moment granted him a knowledge of a Shard and its power, just like TLR before him. He was certainly eager to learn as much as possible in SH - I think by TLM he is very well educated and knows much more than he should have.

Spoiler

Questioner

When Wax is talking to Harmony he mentions 'the radio' and other things. Are there already societies that have things like that and how is he getting that information. Is it like a Spiritual Realm..

Brandon Sanderson

He knows things from his Ascension. He gain an innate knowledge of the universe in interesting ways. In addition, Preservation had some minor innate progno... he could see the future a little bit, and so could Ruin in a little different way. Let's just say that there are a bunch of things mixing together that give Harmony some knowledge that most people wouldn't have.

Questioner

But will we see some of societies soon or is that further in the future?

Brandon Sanderson

*RAFOes* You'll find out.

Shadows of Self Portland signing (Oct. 10, 2015)

 

5 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Same thing with this, since Scadrians have a little more Preservation than Ruin, what would happen if they had more Ruin?

Slight change to their personality at best. People are people all around Cosmere no matter who invested in them. They wouldn't get any specific powers as those things come from elsewhere. Ruin's invested art if Hemalurgy, at best they would be intuitively better at it than others. I'm quite sure there was a WoB about CS not getting influenced at all or mostly by intent of Shard's investiture, but I can't find it. The same would apply to living people.

[Quantus he/him]

Honestly, I think he should Create a pair of Scadrian Godspren, one each to embody Preservation and Ruin, providing some cogntive buffer and letting him focus his Shardic Mind on maintaining the Harmony between two slightly more External forces.

[Trusk'our he/him]

13 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Though if the problems lie with Ruin then I'm curious about how this would work, could a human even survive being directly Invested by Ruin? What abilities would they gain? 

I don't think that the Investiture itself would do the bearer any harm- Investiture seems to have the universal effect of uplifting or deifying a being possessing it, not causing them harm.

Dawnshard and Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

Additionally, Investiture expands a wielders soul and mind, allowing them to use it better or to protect them from the power itself- Feruchemy, for example, helps protect its user as a natural component of its use and Hemalurgic spikes rearrange organs in their bearer to prevent death.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11520

Calderis

I recently got the opportunity to ask you a question about Feruchemical steel and if it was a temporal effect and you told me to define that better. When tapping steel, the mind of the Feruchemist is sped up and physics affects their actions normally. When storing, their mind is not slowed and the effect seems tortuously difficult to amass. Storing generally seems to be the more dangerous/difficult option in Feruchemy, so does [Feruchemical steel] alter a person's personal relationship to the flow of time, with the disconnect between the Physical and Cognitive as a drawback of storing?

Brandon Sanderson

I see what you're asking. The mind-altering effects of [Feruchemical steel] are similar to the slight strength you gain from [Feruchemical iron]--it is your Spiritual nature adapting to the new influx of an attribute that it's not really expecting, and siphoning some of that investiture to make you capable of actually using it. So there is a slight temporal effect here, but nothing as big as I think you're looking for.

However, the method of accessing that Investiture could matter a whole lot- bearing Hemalurgic spikes granting that power would cause wear and tear on the Spiritweb, and too many could seriously maim their bearers. This could most likely be mitigated by having only a few very highly Invested spikes, but it could not be fully removed.

If the Investiture was gained through direct Shardic intervention though, I think only a relatively (it could matter a lot in the long term, depending on the level of Investiture) minor warping of the mind due to the Intent of the Investiture would matter.

[Duxredux he/him]

On 10/13/2023 at 8:12 AM, Quantus said:

Honestly, I think he should Create a pair of Scadrian Godspren, one each to embody Preservation and Ruin, providing some cogntive buffer and letting him focus his Shardic Mind on maintaining the Harmony between two slightly more External forces.

That could work but it sounds disturbingly like a AoN spoiler:

Spoiler

Aether of Night prequel with Former creating two sons who became known as Slaughter and Despair.

Ruin and Preservation can work together, we see this in the creation of Scadrial, but their raw Investiture can literally cause explosions when crashed into each other. This still doesn't address the issue of Ruin being more powerful - either the spren are imbalanced or Harmony still is. If the Spren are imbalanced and Saze is at true equilibrium, that may make his paralysis even worse. These are some of the possible downsides to your godspren idea, but it's possible I'm not grasping all of the benefits you see. I may have a preconceived bias that for the first while you rarely have more time and attention when it comes to parenting or onboarding new employees- and that's without fundamentally opposed concepts of nature. With time yes, you can have more time to yourself but not for the first while.

What did you have in mind with how this could help things?

Edited October 19, 2023 by Duxredux
formatting

[Quantus he/him]

3 hours ago, Duxredux said:

That could work but it sounds disturbingly like a AoN spoiler:

  Hide contents

Aether of Night prequel with Former creating two sons who became known as Slaughter and Despair.

Ruin and Preservation can work together, we see this in the creation of Scadrial, but their raw Investiture can literally cause explosions when crashed into each other. This still doesn't address the issue of Ruin being more powerful - either the spren are imbalanced or Harmony still is. If the Spren are imbalanced and Saze is at true equilibrium, that may make his paralysis even worse. These are some of the possible downsides to your godspren idea, but it's possible I'm not grasping all of the benefits you see. I may have a preconceived bias that for the first while you rarely have more time and attention when it comes to parenting or onboarding new employees- and that's without fundamentally opposed concepts of nature. With time yes, you can have more time to yourself but not for the first while.

What did you have in mind with how this could help things?

Mostly the idea (and it could be entirely wrong) is that it would provide a sort of Cognitive Buffer between Sazed and the constant tidal forces of the two opposed Shards.  Make a Godspren to take the brunt of that pull and then coordinate with them more consciously and/or externally, so that the individuals (or at times the group) can come together and act with initiative, unlike the current balance that doent give Sazed that freedom.  It's a far more extreme version of the Sword and Shield Champion idea, one that gets into the actual mental/spiritual stress that Sazed faces.