Is it possible for Roshar to run out of Stormlight?

[Soulcaster05]

Is this possible?

Spoiler

What with Nightblood being around now in Roshar, could it technically be possible for someone to use him to end the Stormfather's existence. That would remove most of the Orders' Surgebinding abilities..

 

[alder24]

50 minutes ago, Soulcaster05 said:

Is this possible? What with Nightblood being around now in Roshar, could it technically be possible for someone to use him to end the Stormfather's existence. That would remove most of the Orders' Surgebinding abilities..

There is no need for a spoiler box. Not really, but yes. Stormfather is more invested than Nightblood (Stormfather is not only Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, but also is merged with the biggest pieces of Honor), and Nightblood has a hard time absorbing a lot of investiture at once. He has a limit of how much he can absorb and we saw this in RoW. He can't absorb all of Stormfather.

However, Nightblood can most likely deadeye Stormfather, seriously wound him that it would break him and kill him like a deadeye, without consuming all of him. If that would happen we don't know what would happen to Highstorms and Stormlight - my personal theory is that if Stormfather were to be turned into a deadeye, Highstorms would stop coming and Stormlight wouldn't be provided anymore.

Spoiler

lucagreene18

If Szeth were to have drawn Nightblood immediately after he had consumed Rayse, would he still have drained Szeth's Stormlight? As it said he seemed like he had eaten as much as he could.

Brandon Sanderson

At that point, Nightblood had entered into essentially a food coma... Well, no, the food coma one came when he was drawing from the perpendicularity. I don't think he was in food coma mode at that point. I think that he could still have drawn more at that point, I'd have to go look at exactly what I wrote, if I'd put him into food coma mode or not. It is possible.

This is one of the things I wanted to answer with the book. A lot of people have been theorizing, could Nightblood eat an entire Shard? And indeed, Nightblood could not eat an entire Shard. That is not within his capability. In fact, one of the reasons that he leaks Investiture is: he's too stuffed full of it. There is more Investiture in the sword Nightblood than it can actually hold, it's supersaturated. And it leaks Investiture (that it's done some weird things to). But it is constantly hungry for more and constantly leaks it, but it definitely can get full for a time, and it could not eat an entire Shard.

I did see questions about that from people floating around, and it's something I'd been meaning to get to eventually. Nightblood is definitely relevant to things that are happening in the Cosmere, but it is not as simple as grabbing the sword, sticking it into a Shard, and defeating the Shard, unfortunately. Though, as you see in this book, there are reasons for a Shard to still be afraid of Nightblood. It didn't destroy Odium, but Rayse still really had a bad time.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

You've previously said that Nightblood is the most powerful non-Shardic being in the Cosmere. Is he more powerful than the Unmade or Stormfather in terms of raw Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Raw Investiture? Here's the thing, when you say powerful, it can mean lots of different things. More raw Investiture than the Stormfather... probably not. Than the Unmade, probably. I would have to look, I don't have the numbers on this. But the Stormfather is very restricted in what he can do.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

[Guest Ψιτιsτηε Βεsτ]

I’m not sure that Honor and the Stormfather are quite as important to the highstaorms as you say, as we knows that the high storms predate the shattering.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

I’m not sure that Honor and the Stormfather are quite as important to the highstaorms as you say, as we knows that the high storms predate the shattering.

The Stormfather has control over them and rides them, Highstorm contains only Honor's investiture, not any other Shard, Highstorm were changed by Honor, and even Honor himself was said to ride Highstorms. Just remove Stormlight out from Highstorms, Roshar is doomed, end the Highstorm cycle, Roshar is dead. The Stormfather is the Highstorm now.

Spoiler

Snote85

Have the Highstorms always existed on Roshar? The excerpt that talks about how one of the Bondsmiths had resigned himself to fight the Voidbringers but woke up and had a new idea, one that had to do with the nature of the Heralds themselves. Then, inside the Oathgate, we see "mythical creatures" like lions and such. It would make sense that the world might have been different when the KR were last around. So much so, that if the Highstorms "Opposite" is the Everstorm and it was made by followers of Odium, then the Highstorm would have been made by followers of Honor.

Brandon Sanderson

Highstorms did predate the arrival of Honor and Cultivation on Roshar, but it has evolved much during the thousands of years since that event. It was not created by followers of Honor, but there is more to this story that you'll find out as the series progresses.

General Reddit 2017 (Feb. 10, 2017)

Coppermind even said that Highstorms are physical manifestation of Stormfather:

Quote

The storms are a physical manifestation of the Stormfather, who has a degree of control over them and can send one at will, with his bonded Radiant sharing his abilities.^[35][36][37]

RoW ch 71:

Quote

That defies the definition and soul of a storm, the Stormfather said. I must blow. I make this land exist. I carry seeds; I birth plants; I make the landscape permanent with crem. I provide Light. Without me, Roshar withers.

Edit: RoW ch 87:

Quote

Amuna spun toward Adolin. “Do you know what would happen, Prince Adolin, if the Stormfather were to be killed?”
Adolin paused, then shook his head.
“A wise answer,” she said. “As no one knows. We were fortunate that no Bondsmiths existed at the time of the Recreance, though how the Sibling knew to end their bond early is a matter of dispute. I can only imagine the catastrophe that awaits us when your father kills his spren.”

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by alder24

[Guest Ψιτιsτηε Βεsτ]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

The Stormfather has control over them and rides them, Highstorm contains only Honor's investiture, not any other Shard, Highstorm were changed by Honor, and even Honor himself was said to ride Highstorms. Just remove Stormlight out from Highstorms, Roshar is doomed, end the Highstorm cycle, Roshar is dead. The Stormfather is the Highstorm now.

  Hide contents

Snote85

Have the Highstorms always existed on Roshar? The excerpt that talks about how one of the Bondsmiths had resigned himself to fight the Voidbringers but woke up and had a new idea, one that had to do with the nature of the Heralds themselves. Then, inside the Oathgate, we see "mythical creatures" like lions and such. It would make sense that the world might have been different when the KR were last around. So much so, that if the Highstorms "Opposite" is the Everstorm and it was made by followers of Odium, then the Highstorm would have been made by followers of Honor.

Brandon Sanderson

Highstorms did predate the arrival of Honor and Cultivation on Roshar, but it has evolved much during the thousands of years since that event. It was not created by followers of Honor, but there is more to this story that you'll find out as the series progresses.

General Reddit 2017 (Feb. 10, 2017)

Coppermind even said that Highstorms are physical manifestation of Stormfather:

RoW ch 71:

Edit: RoW ch 87:

 

Yes but the stormfather is not always correct. He may see something differently than the way it is. Same with the honorspren, they are not completely knowing, and could easily have been exaggerating to prove a point. I just want to point out that the while the storm is controlled and ruled by the stormfather, that doesn’t mean it is dependent on it. And that the stormfather may be the one that is dependent o  the storm due to his powerful connection to it, and the predation if the storm to him.

Edited October 8, 2023 by ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ

[Experience he/him]

I believe the storm would continue. There's a WoB that states that storms existed before the shattering I'm pretty sure.

[alder24]

35 minutes ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

Yes but the stormfather is not always correct. He may see something differently than the way it is. Same with the honorspren, they are not completely knowing, and could easily have been exaggerating to prove a point. I just want to point out that the while the storm is controlled and ruled by the stormfather, that doesn’t mean it is dependent on it. And that the stormfather may be the one that is dependent o  the storm due to his powerful connection to it, and the predation if the storm to him.

Disagree. I think it's pretty clear that the nature of Highstorms and Stormfather are merged into one - maybe far in the distant past it wasn't like this, but now it is.

But no matter this, it's the Stormfather that provides Stormlight during Highstorm, without him, there is no light, even if Highstorms would still be blowing, without light, there is no life on Roshar.

Spoiler

Narkac

Where does the Stormlight in highstorms come from? Is there like a "rain cycle", but for the Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormlight in the highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the highstorm.

Paris signing (Oct. 22, 2016)

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by alder24

[Guest Ψιτιsτηε Βεsτ]

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Disagree. I think it's pretty clear that the nature of Highstorms and Stormfather are merged into one - maybe far in the distant past it wasn't like this, but now it is.

But no matter this, it's the Stormfather that provides Stormlight during Highstorm, without him, there is no light, even if Highstorms would still be blowing, without light, there is no life on Roshar.

  Reveal hidden contents

Narkac

Where does the Stormlight in highstorms come from? Is there like a "rain cycle", but for the Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormlight in the highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the highstorm.

Paris signing (Oct. 22, 2016)

 

Then how did it exist before?

[alder24]

1 minute ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

Then how did it exist before?

They've evolved, Honor changed them - check out the WoB I've posted earlier. They are no longer like they were pre-Shattering. Now the Stormfather is essential to Highstorms.

[Guest Ψιτιsτηε Βεsτ]

Just now, alder24 said:

They've evolved, Honor changed them - check out the WoB I've posted earlier. They are no longer like they were pre-Shattering. Now the Stormfather is essential to Highstorms.

Ok. Is it possible that without the stormfather, they would or could change back to how they were before naturally?

[alder24]

1 minute ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

Ok. Is it possible that without the stormfather, they would or could change back to how they were before naturally?

Unlikely. Back then Highstorms were of Adonalsium - he is gone now. Now they are fully of Honor, permeated by his investiture and tied to him and Stormfather directly. There is no going back now. If without Stormfather Highstorms won't stop blowing, then you would need hundreds, if not thousands of years for the nature of Highstorms to evolve, adapt and change in some positive way.

[Experience he/him]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Unlikely. Back then Highstorms were of Adonalsium - he is gone now. Now they are fully of Honor, permeated by his investiture and tied to him and Stormfather directly. There is no going back now. If without Stormfather Highstorms won't stop blowing, then you would need hundreds, if not thousands of years for the nature of Highstorms to evolve, adapt and change in some positive way.

We don't know if they were "of Adonalsium" or if it just existed, do we?

[Guest Ψιτιsτηε Βεsτ]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Back then Highstorms were of Adonalsium - he is gone now. Now they are fully of Honor,

Honor is of Adonalsium so couldn’t that tie back? It is the same investure.

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, Experience said:

We don't know if they were "of Adonalsium" or if it just existed, do we?

Adonalsium created Roshar and the entire system. 

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Was just the continent of Roshar created by Adonalsium or was the whole system created?

Brandon Sanderson

Whole system was created.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

10 minutes ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

Honor is of Adonalsium so couldn’t that tie back? It is the same investure.

No, it's not the same. After the Shattering there is no more Adonalsium, and all of his investiture got assigned to every Shard separately. There is no more full and "pure" investiture of Adonalsium, and there is no way to naturally get that. There is no Adonalsium to provide investiture for Highstorms, only Honor, and this is done now through the Stormfather. 

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

[...]

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by alder24

[Guest Ψιτιsτηε Βεsτ]

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Adonalsium created Roshar and the entire system. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Overlord Jebus

Was just the continent of Roshar created by Adonalsium or was the whole system created?

Brandon Sanderson

Whole system was created.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

No, it's not the same. After the Shattering there is no more Adonalsium, and all of his investiture got assigned to every Shard separately. There is no more full and "pure" investiture of Adonalsium, and there is no way to naturally get that. There is no Adonalsium to provide investiture for Highstorms, only Honor, and this is done now through the Stormfather. 

  Hide contents

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

[...]

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

What I mean is even shard investure used to be Adonalsium intesture

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

What I mean is even shard investure used to be Adonalsium intesture

But now it's of Honor, the nature of it is different, changed. Honor's investiture can't become full Adonalsium's investiture as that would require either Adonalsium to be back or all 16 Shardic investiture to combine - both options are impossible. Highstorms won't just go back to how they used to be before the Shattering. 

[Guest Ψιτιsτηε Βεsτ]

That makes sense, but why would all of the shard combining be impossible?

[alder24]

Just now, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

That makes sense, but why would all of the shard combining be impossible?

That’s not impossible, that should be possible, but you can't expect investiture of all 16 Shards (not Shards themself), in the amount big enough to invest the entire planet (Roshar is invested mainly by Honor, Cultivation and Odium right now), to spontaneously and autonomously combine together just like that to recreate Adonalsium's Highstorms and his investiture. That isn’t possible. You also can't expect a reunion of all 16 Shards in the near future. 

Also we don't know if Adonalsium can be brought back - that is a separate question from if all Shards can be united back together. We don’t know if merging all 16 Shards will recreate Adonalsium or something different will be made. We don't even know if Adonalsium was a Vessel, had a Vessel or was a sentient investiture without any Vessel. 

[Guest Ψιτιsτηε Βεsτ]

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

all 16 Shardic investiture to combine - both options are impossible

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That’s not impossible, that should be possible, but you can't expect investiture of all 16 Shards (not Shards themself), in the amount big enough to invest the entire planet (Roshar is invested mainly by Honor, Cultivation and Odium right now), to spontaneously and autonomously combine together just like that to recreate Adonalsium's Highstorms and his investiture. That isn’t possible. You also can't expect a reunion of all 16 Shards in the near future. 

Also we don't know if Adonalsium can be brought back - that is a separate question from if all Shards can be united back together. We don’t know if merging all 16 Shards will recreate Adonalsium or something different will be made. We don't even know if Adonalsium was a Vessel, had a Vessel or was a sentient investiture without any Vessel. 

Yep I was clarifying these.

[Soulcaster05]

Thanks everyone! A wealth of information, TIL!!

 

Has anyone wondered if killing/deadeyeing the Stormfather would bring about the end of the Knights Radiant and let Odium's forces to win? Is that a possibility?

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Soulcaster05 said:

Has anyone wondered if killing/deadeyeing the Stormfather would bring about the end of the Knights Radiant and let Odium's forces to win? Is that a possibility?

Yes, I think that's possible. My personal theory is that the Stormfather will be deadeyed in KoWT, which would stop the Highstorm cycle, start endless Weeping, which would cause floods and Stormlight would no longer be provided to Roshar, which would be generally disastrous, especially for Radiants. There are some suspicious Death Rattles that talk about flood, rain, crying, "failing lights" and "dying storms".

[First of the Dun he/him]

On 10/11/2023 at 0:59 PM, alder24 said:

Yes, I think that's possible. My personal theory is that the Stormfather will be deadeyed in KoWT, which would stop the Highstorm cycle, start endless Weeping, which would cause floods and Stormlight would no longer be provided to Roshar, which would be generally disastrous, especially for Radiants. There are some suspicious Death Rattles that talk about flood, rain, crying, "failing lights" and "dying storms".

Sounds like a job for Lyft!

[Sir Squeekins he/him]

On 10/12/2023 at 4:59 AM, alder24 said:

Yes, I think that's possible. My personal theory is that the Stormfather will be deadeyed in KoWT, which would stop the Highstorm cycle, start endless Weeping, which would cause floods and Stormlight would no longer be provided to Roshar, which would be generally disastrous, especially for Radiants. There are some suspicious Death Rattles that talk about flood, rain, crying, "failing lights" and "dying storms".

Ooh, that would be cool. Although, we would need a way for the highstorms to come back eventually, cause there's no way the series would just stop having Surgebinding altogether. So with hints in RoW about Deadeyes being revived, this theory is made even stronger.

[alder24]

16 hours ago, Moistborn said:

Ooh, that would be cool. Although, we would need a way for the highstorms to come back eventually, cause there's no way the series would just stop having Surgebinding altogether. So with hints in RoW about Deadeyes being revived, this theory is made even stronger.

Either reforging Honor or releasing BAM would fix him. I think the Stormfather will become a Deadeye rather early in KoWT, as a result of whatever TOdium is planning in regards to the Contest of Champions, then the rest of the book will be focused on dealing with consequences of this while the Stormfather is dead and no Stormlight can be provide, until eventually in the climax someone will Ascend to Honor and the Stormfather him, or release of BAM would fix him.