Accessing Shadesmar

[spacemonkey he/him]

It occurred to me that the Seventeenth Shard are presumably using Shadesmar to worldhop like Hoid, so they must have found ways to do enter the Cognitive Realm. That got me wondering about how it might be possible to reach Shadesmar with magic systems other than Soulcasting. Out of the ones we've seen, AonDor seems like the only one that might be able to accomplish it, given its flexibility, and we know that there are Elantrians in the Seventeenth Shard. Although I suppose it might be possible that burning an alloy of atium with one of the mental metals could allow a Mistborn to enter Shadesmar. Can anyone else think of any other possibilities?

[name_here]

It's probably possible to send yourself to Shadesmar through Awakening with the correct Commands. Vasher apparently knows a set that can consume a partial Breath to delete segments of memory, and there are probably others that can be used on yourself. I doubt you could send someone else to Shadesmar that way, though; it seems that they can only be used on yourself, much like "My Breath to yours. My life become yours." can't be used to get someone else's Breath.

Come to think of it, that might be an actual Command itself and have a more specific varient that allows partial transfers or could be performed at range with Audible Command.

[spacemonkey he/him]

I hadn't thought of that, but I agree that Awakening is at least a semi-plausible method of getting to Shadesmar. And come to think of it, whatever it is the Dakhor do is just as feasible as AonDor, although it would probably involve a lot of human sacrifices. We don't really know enough about it to say for sure, though.

Actually, it's also occurred to me that it might be possible for a Feruchemist to send just their mind into Shadesmar, again probably with an alloy of atium. I doubt this would work for worldhopping, though.

[Windrunner he/him]

The only thing we know for sure about someone from Scadrial getting to Shadesmar is that it's possible. Maybe part of their FTL Travel?

How could a person from Scadrial access Shadesmar? An alloy of a god metal?

• He RAFOd me on this one and said it was a plot point for future novels.

[Aradel he/him]

Actually, it's been confirmned that Demoux is a world-hopper. I asked at a West Jordan signing of AoL. He was in the Purelake scene.

Assuming that he didn't just 'hitch a ride' there has to be a way for him to world hop.

Maybe Sazed can move other people around with his Shardic Might.

Edit: Demoux was an Atium misting last time we saw him. Odds are it's somehow involved.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Goradel's Nephew

[spacemonkey he/him]

Or it might be possible to take other people with you into Shadesmar, so someone else could have given Demoux a ride, so to speak.

[Eri she/her]

My guess about Demoux is that Atium misting can burn Atium Alloys and Cadmium-Atium (or something similar) allows you to teleport or acces Shadesmar.

BTW: How long is WoK set after HoA? Is Demoux growing old normally?

[Aradel he/him]

My guess about Demoux is that Atium misting can burn Atium Alloys and Cadmium-Atium (or something similar) allows you to teleport or acces Shadesmar.

BTW: How long is WoK set after HoA? Is Demoux growing old normally?

I don't remember the exact number, but I think WoK happens around the same time as AoL. So yeah, he's apparently found a way to extend his life.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

WoK is something like a hundred years after AoL actually, Warbreaker takes place at about the same time as AoL.

[spacemonkey he/him]

It's also possible that Demoux could have extended his life with time dilation. All he'd have to do is get a Pulser to burn Cadmium near him. So he wouldn't actually have to be a Feruchemist, which last we know, he wasn't.

[Zas678 he/him]

WoK is something like a hundred years after AoL actually,

Are you sure about that? I don't remember that. I remember the AoL being about the same time as Warbreaker, and then AoL being about three hundred years after HoA. But I don't remember WoK being tied down to a specific time. Just after Warbreaker.

[spacemonkey he/him]

Brandon has commented that the second Mistborn trilogy will take place at around the same time as WoK, and that it will be set a hundred or so years after AoL.

[Pechvarry]

I always thought it relevant that shards can... speak with the dead? Maybe bring them back? If shardic power is tied to the afterlife of the Cosmere, who's to say the seventeenth shard members aren't already dead? Perhaps Shadesmar is the afterlife, in a similar way to Heroes of the Horn hanging around in the Dream world of the Wheel of Time series. That sure would be a convenient way to explain how they're everywhere, if the whole cosmere shares the same afterlife.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Pechvarry

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I always thought it relevant that shards can... speak with the dead? Maybe bring them back? If shardic power is tied to the afterlife of the Cosmere, who's to say the seventeenth shard members aren't already dead? Perhaps Shadesmar is the afterlife, in a similar way to Heroes of the Horn hanging around in the Dream world of the Wheel of Time series. That sure would be a convenient way to explain how they're everywhere, if the whole cosmere shares the same afterlife.

The "real afterlife." as in the place where Elend and Vin are is outside the Three Realms. Shadesmar is the Cognitive Realm so can't be the afterlife. Though some dead people can stick around in the Spiritual Realm like Kelsier.

[spacemonkey he/him]

That's correct. Sazed wasn't able to communicate with Tindwyl because she'd moved on from the Three Realms.

We don't know much at all about the Spiritual Realm yet, except that Shardblades are stored there. Although if Shardblades can be sent there, and people can enter the Cognitive Realm, that raises the question: is it possible for a living person to enter the Spiritual Realm? Other than by becoming a Shard, that is.

[Eri she/her]

I agree that Demoux probably can be dead (only mostly dead, like Kelsier, not dead-dead, like Tindwyl, Vin or Elend). If a living person can enter Shadesmar than maybe a only-mostly-dead person being in Shadesmar can enter Physical Realm using similar means?

[spacemonkey he/him]

I agree that Demoux probably can be dead (only mostly dead, like Kelsier, not dead-dead, like Tindwyl, Vin or Elend). If a living person can enter Shadesmar than maybe a only-mostly-dead person being in Shadesmar can enter Physical Realm using similar means?

Well, maybe. I sort of doubt it, though. It's seems unlikely to me that people could be brought back from being dead- even only mostly dead- without something fairly major happening, given that the only actual resurrection we've seen (the Returned) requires the Splinter of a Shard.

[Windrunner he/him]

I don't think that it's possible for someone to come back if they're only mostly dead. The best evidence I have is Kelsier. A man who has a strong connection to Scadrial, is worshipped the world across and is a Sliver of Preservation. He also has the type of personality to keep meddling with the world, and we know he still does from Shadesmar somehow. Don't you think if he could have, Kelsier would have come back? I think that he hasn't says it all. I think it's extremely unlikely.

Okay, I just had an epiphany. We know that regular people need a presence in all three Realms, Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual, to live as we know it, with a functioning body and everything. Kelsier has lost his physical form so he should pass on, but he doesn't. Maybe the fact that he's venerated or worshipped by so many people existing in the Physical Realm, is enough to anchor him and replace his own physical presence, allowing him to still live on as a Cognitive aspect/person/thing. What do you guys think?

[dj26792 he/him]

Well, it is my assertion that he is in the spiritual realm rather than shadesmar, although I cannot remember my source for that at present, otherwise I still find myself disagreeing, but this bit is purely opinion, not even a potentially imagined source from here on. I think its basically the same as becoming a ghost in Harry Potter, you choose not to move on and get to hang around and influence things a bit, but it probably takes more strength of will than the average person has which is why despite all the dying that has happened Kelsier is the only example of it in the cosmere.

[Zas678 he/him]

I also think that it is interesting that Sazed talks to Kelsier, Vin and Elend after they die- and they're all allomancers. Maybe it's just me, but I think that having that increased connection to Preservation might help keep you in the Cognitive Realm. But Brandon has said certain things about staying around.

DARXBANE

This is fun.

Does Sazed get to see Tindwyl again now that he is a deity?

2. Sazed has yet to learn how to touch the distant other side, where all souls go. He is able to see into the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms, and any spirits or souls who remain there, rather than passing on. Generally, you have to be tied to the Physical Realm in specific ways to not pass on. As for where Tindwyl is, I will have to leave this up to you to imagine for now.

[Windrunner he/him]

Ok, I just combed all relevant sections of the Brandonotholgy and HoA annotations looking for a specific reference to where Kelsier is now, and I found nothing concrete. Since both his spiritual and cognitive aspects remain, he is now possibly in a bit of both. One interesting thing to remember is that people dying in Roshar can see a world that is almost certainly Shadesmar. So I will proceed with the assumption that whatever is left of Kelsier is in Shadesmar.

I have had a couple more ideas about why Kelsier can hang around, and I remembered he is also a Sliver! That's got to have something to do with it. If I had to take a guess I'd say that he can stick around for two reasons, one of which I stated above, that him being worshiped by the people in the Physical Realm has anchored him there, making it a little bit like he still has a physical aspect. The second part is also a guess. I am nearly certain that being a Sliver implies a large connection to the Shard, in the form of an increased spiritual aspect. (Could Kelsier use Preservation's power because he was an Allomancer!?!?!) Kelsier could now be using that over-sized Spiritual aspect to compensate for having a weakened physical one, similar to what a Shard does, except on an obviously smaller scale. Shards have so much Spiritual power that having a Physical aspect is actually limiting.

The one potential conflict is that Kelsier couldn't have been a Sliver until he took up Preservation, which he couldn't have stuck around to do unless he was a Sliver, at least according to my theory. However, I think I know how to solve this. I don't think you have to exit the Three Realms right away when you die. The people of Roshar are obviously going to Shadesmar first. (which is somehow linked to precognition?) When Kelsier arrived at his layaway in Shadesmar, he was already used to using Preservation's power, because he was an Allomancer. So he was to, as Brandon said, "piggy-back" on to Preservation's power, but not fully, because the Well hadn't attuned him yet. Then he gave Vin Preservation, and his nature as a Sliver allowed him to hang on. By this argument, Vin and Rashek could have hung around too, since they were Slivers and the subject of worship, but Vin at least chose to move on. Wouldn't it be creepy if Rashek was still watching too? Kelsier however, would certainly not choose to die, when there was still meddling to be done. Does any of this make any sense? I hope so, because if not I just wasted a half an hour. Regardless, in my opinion, simply not wanting to go on, isn't enough. Their are plenty of people who don't want to die and are afraid, so Shadesmar should be chocked full of them.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Windrunner

[spacemonkey he/him]

Ok, I just combed all relevant sections of the Brandonotholgy and HoA annotations looking for a specific reference to where Kelsier is now, and I found nothing concrete. Since both his spiritual and cognitive aspects remain, he is now possibly in a bit of both. One interesting thing to remember is that people dying in Roshar can see a world that is almost certainly Shadesmar. So I will proceed with the assumption that whatever is left of Kelsier is in Shadesmar.

I have had a couple more ideas about why Kelsier can hang around, and I remembered he is also a Sliver! That's got to have something to do with it. If I had to take a guess I'd say that he can stick around for two reasons, one of which I stated above, that him being worshiped by the people in the Physical Realm has anchored him there, making it a little bit like he still has a physical aspect. The second part is also a guess. I am nearly certain that being a Sliver implies a large connection to the Shard, in the form of an increased spiritual aspect. (Could Kelsier use Preservation's power because he was an Allomancer!?!?!) Kelsier could now be using that over-sized Spiritual aspect to compensate for having a weakened physical one, similar to what a Shard does, except on an obviously smaller scale. Shards have so much Spiritual power that having a Physical aspect is actually limiting.

The one potential conflict is that Kelsier couldn't have been a Sliver until he took up Preservation, which he couldn't have stuck around to do unless he was a Sliver, at least according to my theory. However, I think I know how to solve this. I don't think you have to exit the Three Realms right away when you die. The people of Roshar are obviously going to Shadesmar first. (which is somehow linked to precognition?) When Kelsier arrived at his layaway in Shadesmar, he was already used to using Preservation's power, because he was an Allomancer. So he was to, as Brandon said, "piggy-back" on to Preservation's power, but not fully, because the Well hadn't attuned him yet. Then he gave Vin Preservation, and his nature as a Sliver allowed him to hang on. By this argument, Vin and Rashek could have hung around too, since they were Slivers and the subject of worship, but Vin at least chose to move on. Wouldn't it be creepy if Rashek was still watching too? Kelsier however, would certainly not choose to die, when there was still meddling to be done. Does any of this make any sense? I hope so, because if not I just wasted a half an hour. Regardless, in my opinion, simply not wanting to go on, isn't enough. Their are plenty of people who don't want to die and are afraid, so Shadesmar should be chocked full of them.

This brings to mind Brandon's comments about Returned, namely that drabs can't Return the same way someone with Breath could. That seems to support your theory, as Breath most likely acts as an anchor to the Realms.