+Oltux72 he/him Posted September 29, 2023 Posted September 29, 2023 Now that we The Lost Metal and know that Kelsier has no powers, let's ask the core question. Whose memories are in the coin?
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted September 29, 2023 Posted September 29, 2023 37 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Now that we The Lost Metal and know that Kelsier has no powers, let's ask the core question. Whose memories are in the coin? I think the memories are confirmed to be Kelsiers aren't they? That said his lack of powers doesn't exclude him from using a medallion to store and even have someone else view. That isn't to say that those memories couldn't possibly be corrupt or altered. I just think that the presence of medallions in general give plenty of evidence for them being legit memories of Kelsier himself regardless of his power status. 1
Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him Posted September 30, 2023 Posted September 30, 2023 I would hazard a guess that the reason he worked so hard with the Southern Scadrians to develop unkeyed metalminds was to find a way to get his powers back to some degree
alder24 Posted September 30, 2023 Posted September 30, 2023 11 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Now that we The Lost Metal and know that Kelsier has no powers, let's ask the core question. Whose memories are in the coin? Those memories are certainly Kelsier's memories - it's from his perspective. It's possible there might be more coins like that. But Kelsier didn't want those memories to be known - this begs the question, why did he stored them? One answer I can think of is that it's the memory that was meant to stay among Malwish, as part of their religion and culture, but it wasn't meant to get to the Basin. If Kelsier stored this memory in a single coin, Malwish could likely copy them to other metalminds with their Excisor. But the existence of this coin is as suspicious as the Bands being hidden in the temple near New Seran - why did he make the Bands and later hid them in such an inaccessible place so close to Elendel? There is more to Kelsier and the Sovereign than we know of and I wouldn't be surprised if had a bit of a rift with Spook or some of his new crew members that resulted in them stealing the Bands and coins away from him.
+Oltux72 he/him Posted September 30, 2023 Author Posted September 30, 2023 11 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said: I would hazard a guess that the reason he worked so hard with the Southern Scadrians to develop unkeyed metalminds was to find a way to get his powers back to some degree While that in itself is absolutely logical, it leaves us with an arguably bigger question. Why did he give the Bands of Mourning away? Or, if he didn't, who was the Sovereign and why did Kelsier not go for the Bands in the decades they were in front of that temple? 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Those memories are certainly Kelsier's memories - it's from his perspective. Just to be sure, how certain are we of that? Could we be looking at the memories of an earlier, failed, attempt to reincarnate himself, which became a pseudo-Kandra? And, next question, why can he see the allomantic lines, although he is not an allomancer? 1 hour ago, alder24 said: One answer I can think of is that it's the memory that was meant to stay among Malwish, as part of their religion and culture, but it wasn't meant to get to the Basin. Why? What is the benefit to him? Those memories themselves are pretty banal. They work because Northeners recognise the scars. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: There is more to Kelsier and the Sovereign than we know of and I wouldn't be surprised if had a bit of a rift with Spook or some of his new crew members that resulted in them stealing the Bands and coins away from him. That such a conflict may have occured is entirely plausible. But then you have to explain why Kelsier let them sit there for decades. And that is very, very hard to do, unless they were hidden well. However, against an organization like the Ghostbloods they were anything but well hidden.
alder24 Posted September 30, 2023 Posted September 30, 2023 1 minute ago, Oltux72 said: Just to be sure, how certain are we of that? Could we be looking at the memories of an earlier, failed, attempt to reincarnate himself, which became a pseudo-Kandra? It's Kelsier, as they both look like Kelsier and have the spike in the eye, and Kelsier is the person depicted on the coin and on the statue in the temple. And I've forgotten to give you WoB: Spoiler Viridian Why did Hoid give the memory coin to Wax? What was his intention? Brandon Sanderson He thought that certain information was being kept, and certain lies were being perpetuated. And Hoid was a fan of that information being out. Viridian I'm still suspicious. Brandon Sanderson Oh, you should be suspicious of Hoid's motive. He and Kelsier do not get along. Let's just say... Kelsier did not want that information to get out. Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016) He had around 10 years to make himself a new body, and that's plenty of time for him. Spoiler rxience (paraphrased) Would a single spike be sufficient to staple a Cognitive Shadow to a mistwraith? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes, that could happen. rxience (paraphrased) Did that happen in the past? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Who are you thinking about? rxience (paraphrased) Kelsier of course! Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Well, he is somehow in the Physical Realm. And he does look like himself, doesn't he? Berlin signing (May 14, 2019) Spoiler Questioner At the end of the last Wax and Wayne book, which I love, that statue that they though was the Lord Ruler. It was Kelsier. Brandon Sanderson That was Kelsier. Questioner Ok. I thought so, because the way the other thing ended with the eye, the eye thing was throwing me off and then I went and grabbed the secret thing and I was like "No that can't..." Brandon Sanderson That is Kelsier. Questioner And will we find out more in the next Wax and Wayne book or do we need to wait and find out more later? Brandon Sanderson You will find out more in the Wax and Wayne book, really that that's going on there is foreshadowing for era 3, and for future Secret History stories if I do them. So the Wax and Wayne books are not about the return of Kelsier, but the return of Kelsier is very important for later things in the series. Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016) 1 minute ago, Oltux72 said: And, next question, why can he see the allomantic lines, although he is not an allomancer? That's steelsight, not just Allomantic lines. It's because he has a spike in his eye, and just like Inquisitors see steel lines, and that not only when they burn steel/iron, but all the time - he sees them too, just like Inquisitors. Hemalurgic spike changes the body, and a spike in the eye results in gaining permanent steelsight, which replaces the lost eye. The lines are not because of Allomancy. Warbreaker spoilers: Spoiler Awakened objects see with something similar to steelsight, this is not an exclusive effect of Allomancy: Spoiler Questioner In Awakening an object when you give it the sort of Command like, go get the keys, or something. How does that object perceive the world around it? Since it doesn't have standard human senses, how does it see? How does it touch? Brandon Sanderson It is not-- Moderator Repeat the question. Brandon Sanderson Oh… go ahead. Moderator The question was, how do Awakened objects actually perceive the world. Brandon Sanderson …The closest correlation you have to this is how Inquisitors see. Questioner Okay, following up on that say, someone who has-- say someone with bronze who-- a bronze Misting managed to somehow get access to Breath and Awaken would he then be able to tell that object "Hey I sense this Allomancer over there, can you find it". Brandon Sanderson That is not outside the realm of possibility. JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016) 7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Why? What is the benefit to him? Those memories themselves are pretty banal. They work because Northeners recognise the scars. A foundation of a new religion. He might want to influence the Malwish in some way and religion is just a tool. Malwish would immediately recognise a spike in one eye, as that's a prominent image of their religion and history. I bet they would recognise the scars with ease too - Kel show them to Malwish. 13 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: But then you have to explain why Kelsier let them sit there for decades. He simply didn't know where the Bands were. Searching the entire planet for something so small is really hard. Or it was Kelsier who hid them there and he did this, and spread rumors of them, to force early first contact between Malwish and the Basin, leading to conflict that will speed up technological progress on Scadrial - which is one of his goals. But it still sounds weird to me to leave a weapon like that in the middle of nowhere, when Ghostbloods gather all kinds of weapons including pure Dor. 1
+Oltux72 he/him Posted September 30, 2023 Author Posted September 30, 2023 17 minutes ago, alder24 said: He simply didn't know where the Bands were. Searching the entire planet for something so small is really hard. So whoever stole them built a gigantic temple with a humongeous statue in front of it instead of hiding it in a box under somebody's bed. I am sure you see the issue. 19 minutes ago, alder24 said: Or it was Kelsier who hid them there and he did this, and spread rumors of them, to force early first contact between Malwish and the Basin, leading to conflict that will speed up technological progress on Scadrial - which is one of his goals. Sorry, but that makes no sense. For that the Bands don't need to be actually there. The mere rumour would suffice. There is something very off in that whole story line. 1
alder24 Posted September 30, 2023 Posted September 30, 2023 9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: So whoever stole them built a gigantic temple with a humongeous statue in front of it instead of hiding it in a box under somebody's bed. I am sure you see the issue. In the middle of a planet sized nowhere. Good luck finding it. 3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Sorry, but that makes no sense. For that the Bands don't need to be actually there. The mere rumour would suffice. No, the Bands need to be there for the conflict to arise, one side needs to get this weapon for the other side to worry, distrust the other, and pursue technological progress to offset this disadvantage. Without the Bands the first contact would end peacefully, with a trade agreement just like Steris wanted - both sides have something to trade, but if one side has the Bands, the other can't have them and will feel threatened. The Bands are a weapon of mass destruction. We know nothing about, all we can do is speculate. I don't think there was just a single reason for placing the Bands in the temple, but several reasons, because if somebody wanted to just hide them, as you pointed out, there are better ways to accomplish this. This is far more complex than “just hide the Bands”. 1
Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him Posted October 1, 2023 Posted October 1, 2023 12 hours ago, alder24 said: In the middle of a planet sized nowhere. Good luck finding it. No, the Bands need to be there for the conflict to arise, one side needs to get this weapon for the other side to worry, distrust the other, and pursue technological progress to offset this disadvantage. The Southern Scadrians already have medallion tech. There was no need for the Bands to be in place to create conflict, it would/could have arisen narratively without the bands present If Kelsier put the Bands at that Temple is was the weirdest/dumbest decision he's made in the stories so far. I hope we get more details on it in the future
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted October 1, 2023 Posted October 1, 2023 13 hours ago, alder24 said: In the middle of a planet sized nowhere. Good luck finding it. No, the Bands need to be there for the conflict to arise, one side needs to get this weapon for the other side to worry, distrust the other, and pursue technological progress to offset this disadvantage. Without the Bands the first contact would end peacefully, with a trade agreement just like Steris wanted - both sides have something to trade, but if one side has the Bands, the other can't have them and will feel threatened. The Bands are a weapon of mass destruction. We know nothing about, all we can do is speculate. I don't think there was just a single reason for placing the Bands in the temple, but several reasons, because if somebody wanted to just hide them, as you pointed out, there are better ways to accomplish this. This is far more complex than “just hide the Bands”. While a single Bands of Mourning will certainly open up conflict... I feel like Kelsier is a big fan of progression and he is after answers. So much tech and progression get made during arms races and war time. The existance of the tension between South and North Scadrial is going to propell them into the next eras for better or worse.
+Oltux72 he/him Posted October 1, 2023 Author Posted October 1, 2023 17 hours ago, alder24 said: In the middle of a planet sized nowhere. Good luck finding it. No, the Bands need to be there for the conflict to arise, one side needs to get this weapon for the other side to worry, distrust the other, and pursue technological progress to offset this disadvantage. Without the Bands the first contact would end peacefully, with a trade agreement just like Steris wanted - both sides have something to trade, but if one side has the Bands, the other can't have them and will feel threatened. The Bands are a weapon of mass destruction. We know nothing about, all we can do is speculate. I don't think there was just a single reason for placing the Bands in the temple, but several reasons, because if somebody wanted to just hide them, as you pointed out, there are better ways to accomplish this. This is far more complex than “just hide the Bands”. Well, right at the edge of the Basinis at a place where you want them to be found. Hence also the whole temple. Yet, how would one side learn that the other side has the bands? If you want them to think that the other side has them the version with the shattered case makes much more sense. In fact, it almost seems like the temple and the statue have different intents, hence also origins. 1
alder24 Posted October 1, 2023 Posted October 1, 2023 8 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said: The Southern Scadrians already have medallion tech. There was no need for the Bands to be in place to create conflict, it would/could have arisen narratively without the bands present Medallions are not the same as unlimited Fullborn powers. 4 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Yet, how would one side learn that the other side has the bands? If you want them to think that the other side has them the version with the shattered case makes much more sense. In fact, it almost seems like the temple and the statue have different intents, hence also origins. It's possible that the decoy Bands could serve as a ignition point between the Basin and Malwish - just one side thinking that the other had the Bands would be enough. Overall, I think we can all agree that all this staff with the temple, the Bands and Kelsier's involvement in it is really unclear and suspicious. There is a secret there to uncover.
Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him Posted October 2, 2023 Posted October 2, 2023 On 10/1/2023 at 4:04 AM, alder24 said: Medallions are not the same as unlimited Fullborn powers For sure, but they still represent a technological edge/advantage the Northern Scadrians don't/didn't have. I mean Southern Scadrians have the power of flight. That alone would be enough to ignite hostilities between nations without the Bands even being present
alder24 Posted October 2, 2023 Posted October 2, 2023 5 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said: For sure, but they still represent a technological edge/advantage the Northern Scadrians don't/didn't have. I mean Southern Scadrians have the power of flight. That alone would be enough to ignite hostilities between nations without the Bands even being present Which is more or less leveled with Basin's access to tens of thousands of Mistings and Ferrings - that's what Steris' trade idea was about (also Malwish weren't united back then). There is a room for growth of some hostilities and untrust, of course there is, but that's not even close to "they have the means to immediately wipe us out of existence with the Bands".
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