Honour, Valour and Truth he/him Posted September 28, 2023 Posted September 28, 2023 So the plan was for this, and the revelation of the weird high king business, to break the Coalition but I don’t quite understand why it matters? Like it’s still us against them, humans vs the fused and odium, who cares if it turns out that the humans are the voidbringers? The fused are killing and pillaging and destroying mankind, surely the monarchs should continue with the coalition anyway. If just seems a bit too neat… What do you think?
JustQuestin2004 he/him Posted September 28, 2023 Posted September 28, 2023 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Honour, Valour and Truth said: So the plan was for this, and the revelation of the weird high king business, to break the Coalition but I don’t quite understand why it matters? Like it’s still us against them, humans vs the fused and odium, who cares if it turns out that the humans are the voidbringers? The fused are killing and pillaging and destroying mankind, surely the monarchs should continue with the coalition anyway. If just seems a bit too neat… What do you think? It changes the context of the situation. Though really that wasn't the only thing that was threatening to break the alliance apart, it was Elhokar declaring Dalinar as 'High-King', which made the leaders of the other nations, who were already skeptical of the Alethi due to their incessant warmongering, think that the Alethi were just trying to use the situation to take over Roshar like Sunmaker. Edit: Plus at the time no one really knew what the Fused were or what they could do. The other leaders probably thought that they'd just be fighting normal Parshendi, with no inkling of their elites being Surgebinders. Edited September 28, 2023 by JustQuestin2004 1
Treamayne Posted September 28, 2023 Posted September 28, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Honour, Valour and Truth said: So the plan was for this, and the revelation of the weird high king business, to break the Coalition but I don’t quite understand why it matters? Like it’s still us against them, humans vs the fused and odium, who cares if it turns out that the humans are the voidbringers? The fused are killing and pillaging and destroying mankind, surely the monarchs should continue with the coalition anyway. If just seems a bit too neat… Are you referring to Taravangian's plan for why he revealed what and when he revealed it? Or are you referring to the theoretical reason Radiants broke their Oaths during the Recreance? If the former, please recall the section of the Diagram (WoR. Ch 80 Epigraph) that told his future less-intelligent self that he must "become King of Everything." The timing and method of releasing the information was meant to break Dalinar's will and leadership so that he could take control of the Coalition in his bid to make a bargain with Odium Of course, Taravangian never realized his own true motive - hubris. It wasn't that he wanted to defeat Odium or protect humanity. . . he wanted to be seen as the person who "Protected Humanity" (a very different thing) If the latter, then further information in Rhythm of War indicates there was more to the decision that led to the Recreance, this reveal was only part of "why" Edited September 28, 2023 by Treamayne SPAG 2
alder24 Posted September 28, 2023 Posted September 28, 2023 58 minutes ago, Honour, Valour and Truth said: So the plan was for this, and the revelation of the weird high king business, to break the Coalition but I don’t quite understand why it matters? Like it’s still us against them, humans vs the fused and odium, who cares if it turns out that the humans are the voidbringers? The fused are killing and pillaging and destroying mankind, surely the monarchs should continue with the coalition anyway. If just seems a bit too neat… What do you think? Because nobody trusted Alethi at all, and every member of the Coalition got different news, which used their fears against them. Also Fused weren't attacking them yet - only Alethkar fell to their invasion, rest of Roshar suffered relatively mildly or not at all - they suffered more from the Everstorm and Parshmen leaving than from Fused attacks. Fen was worried that this was some fancy Alethi move that will result in Alethkar conquering Thaylenah and she got news about the highking proposal. Elia Stelle didn't matter to her. She still had to accept working with Dalinar and risk losing her crown just to save her country from the incoming Odium's attack. OB ch 111: Quote “Bah,” Fen said. “Dusty books and ideas for philosophers. What I want to know about is this highking business!” “Highking?” Yanagawn asked through an interpreter. “I’ve an essay,” Fen said, slapping papers against her hand, “from Zetah the Voiced claiming that before King Elhokar left for Alethkar, he swore to Dalinar to accept him as emperor.” OB ch 113: Quote Queen Fen was one of the last to leave the temple. “Will you leave me too?” Dalinar asked. She laughed. “To go where, old hound? An army is coming this way. I still need your famous Alethi infantry; I can’t afford to throw you out.” “Such bitterness.” “Oh, did it show? I’m going to check on the city’s defenses; if you decide to join us, we’ll be at the walls.” “I’m sorry, Fen,” Dalinar said, “for betraying your trust.” She shrugged. “I don’t really think you intend to conquer me, Kholin. But oddly … I can’t help wishing I did have to worry. Best I can tell, you’ve become a good man right in time to bravely sink with this ship. That’s commendable, until I remember that the Blackthorn would have long since murdered everyone trying to sink him.” Azish still remember Sadees Sunmaker, who conquered Azir and slaughtered 10% of their population just because he wanted, and they expected the same from Dalinar, the Blackthorn, who is known for his brutality and conquests, not for his diplomacy and peacefulness. More importantly they also distrust Radiants, who were considered traitors wielding dangerous powers - that is why they got news about Dalinar hiding 2 visions from them, where he met Odium, making them think he and the Radiants are working for Odium or are at least manipulated by him. OB ch 111: Quote “And this?” Noura said, holding up some pages. “Were you preparing an explanation for this as well?” “What is that?” Dalinar asked, bracing himself. “Accounts of two visions,” Noura said, “that you didn’t share with us. In which you supposedly met and fraternized with a being known as Odium.” [...] “Is it true?” Noura asked in Alethi. “Dalinar Kholin, have you met with our enemy?” Navani gripped his arm. Jasnah subtly shook her head: Don’t answer that. “Yes,” Dalinar said. “Did he,” Noura asked pointedly, “tell you you’d destroy Roshar?” OB ch 113: Quote Only Vizier Noura idled to speak to him. “Jasnah Kholin might be right,” she said in Azish. “The destruction of our old world, your secret visions, this business with you being highking—it seems too great a coincidence for it all to come at once.” “Then you can see that we’re being manipulated.” “Manipulated by the truth, Kholin,” she said, meeting his eyes. “That Oathgate is dangerous. These powers of yours are dangerous. Deny it.” OB ch 116: Quote “Viziers,” she said, bowing in turn to them, then to Unoqua. “News from the city!” “Good news?” Noura asked hopefully. “The Alethi have turned against the Thaylens, and now seek to conquer them! They’ve been allied with the parshmen all along. Your Grace, by fleeing, we have narrowly avoided a trap!” “Quickly,” Noura said. “Separate our ships from any that bear Alethi troops. We must not be caught unaware!” They left, abandoning Yanagawn to the care of a dozen young scribes who were next in line for basking in his presence. He settled into his seat, worried and afraid, feeling a sickness in his gut. The Alethi, traitors? Lift had been wrong. He had been wrong. Yaezir bless them. This really was the end of days Taravangian was just playing his role with the news of Elia Stele - this was predicted by the Diagram, he was using the truth that cause ancient Radiants to abandoned their Oaths, to make those new Radiants doubt if they are on the right side, making them abandon Dalinar or even break their Oaths. WoR ch 84: Quote "Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return." For Radiants, especially Windrunners, being on the right side of the conflict is a big deal. Now they know that Singers simply want to regain their home - the Bridge 4 are former slaves, criminals and prisoners, they can empathize with them, and they were worried that they are on the wrong side once more. OB ch 111: Quote “Perhaps,” Taravangian said. “Yes, perhaps. But it is a problem. We have believed that ours is a righteous war, but this news of mankind’s origins has me disconcerted.” What are you talking about?” Fen said. “The news from the Veden translators? Ancient texts, manifesting that humans came from another world?” [...] “What of this ancient record?” Taravangian said. “It claims that the Radiants already destroyed one world. Is that not what caused them to disband? They worried that their powers could not be controlled!” OB ch 113: Quote “Sir,” Teft said. “We thought we’d head back to Urithiru. We left some of the men behind, and they deserve to know about this business with the ancient Radiants.” “What we’ve discovered doesn’t change the fact that we are being invaded,” Dalinar said. “Invaded by people trying to reclaim their homeland,” Sigzil said. “Storms. I’d be mad too.” “We’re supposed to be the good guys, you know?” Leyten said. “Fighting for a good cause, for once in our storming lives.” Echoes of his own thoughts. Dalinar found he couldn’t formulate an argument against that. “We’ll see what Kal says,” Teft replied. “Sir. All respect, sir. But we’ll see what he says. He knows the right of things, even when the rest of us don’t.” Every one of them got different news, striking precisely in their fears, making them abandon Dalinar in either disstrust or disbelief. It wasn't just this one news about the highking issue or just the Elia Stele. OB ch 113: Quote Part of him couldn’t help but be impressed by how deftly he’d been outmaneuvered. Queen Fen worried about Dalinar being genuine; the enemy had delivered perfect proof that Dalinar had hidden political motives. Noura and the Azish worried that the powers were dangerous, whispering of Lost Radiants. To them, the enemy indicated that Dalinar was being manipulated by evil visions. And to Taravangian—who spoke so often of philosophy—the enemy suggested that their moral foundation for the war was a sham. 3
Honour, Valour and Truth he/him Posted September 28, 2023 Author Posted September 28, 2023 42 minutes ago, alder24 said: Because nobody trusted Alethi at all, and every member of the Coalition got different news, which used their fears against them. Also Fused weren't attacking them yet - only Alethkar fell to their invasion, rest of Roshar suffered relatively mildly or not at all - they suffered more from the Everstorm and Parshmen leaving than from Fused attacks. Fen was worried that this was some fancy Alethi move that will result in Alethkar conquering Thaylenah and she got news about the highking proposal. Elia Stelle didn't matter to her. She still had to accept working with Dalinar and risk losing her crown just to save her country from the incoming Odium's attack. OB ch 111: OB ch 113: Azish still remember Sadees Sunmaker, who conquered Azir and slaughtered 10% of their population just because he wanted, and they expected the same from Dalinar, the Blackthorn, who is known for his brutality and conquests, not for his diplomacy and peacefulness. More importantly they also distrust Radiants, who were considered traitors wielding dangerous powers - that is why they got news about Dalinar hiding 2 visions from them, where he met Odium, making them think he and the Radiants are working for Odium or are at least manipulated by him. OB ch 111: OB ch 113: OB ch 116: Taravangian was just playing his role with the news of Elia Stele - this was predicted by the Diagram, he was using the truth that cause ancient Radiants to abandoned their Oaths, to make those new Radiants doubt if they are on the right side, making them abandon Dalinar or even break their Oaths. WoR ch 84: For Radiants, especially Windrunners, being on the right side of the conflict is a big deal. Now they know that Singers simply want to regain their home - the Bridge 4 are former slaves, criminals and prisoners, they can empathize with them, and they were worried that they are on the wrong side once more. OB ch 111: OB ch 113: Every one of them got different news, striking precisely in their fears, making them abandon Dalinar in either disstrust or disbelief. It wasn't just this one news about the highking issue or just the Elia Stele. OB ch 113: I understand all this. I do get the idea of the wind runners not liking the idea of fighting people just trying to claim their home, but storms! Just because it’s their home too shouldn’t mean they should just bend over and let them all die! It’s because Taravangian is a master manipulator really. I do really hate him, I’m sorta glad he’s dead now, his body at least.
alder24 Posted September 28, 2023 Posted September 28, 2023 21 minutes ago, Honour, Valour and Truth said: I understand all this. I do get the idea of the wind runners not liking the idea of fighting people just trying to claim their home, but storms! Just because it’s their home too shouldn’t mean they should just bend over and let them all die! Morality is a subjective thing. Two Windrunners can disagree on the answer to the same moral dilemma - there isn't really a good answer for what's right or wrong in this case. The important thing was to make them doubt they're on the right side, and if they truly held the moral high ground. At that point they already knew from reports from Alethkar that Singers didn't kill people, they conquered them and simply ruled over them. They weren't the Voidbringers they thought they were, nor Fused were. 24 minutes ago, Honour, Valour and Truth said: It’s because Taravangian is a master manipulator really. I do really hate him, I’m sorta glad he’s dead now, his body at least. You're glad Taravangian holds the infinite power of the Shard of hatred now? This just makes him more terrifying.
Recommended Posts