Rapid-fire Duralumin-enhanced Allomancy

[Duxredux he/him]

Talked with my brother about the thread on safely burning Harmonium, including @Trusk'our's idea to Plate the outside with another allomantic metal.

While Duralumin allows for massive bursts of power of other metals, instantly burning all available metal, Duralumin itself burns at a constant rate. Combine this with this WoB that Trusk'our found:

Quote

Lurcher

Can you burn a metal wrapped in another metal, if both are Allomantic? Like, the inner metal, could you just burn that before?

Brandon Sanderson

No, you're gonna have to work your way through the outer one.

Lurcher

And what if it was a non-Allomantic metal? The same?

Brandon Sanderson

It's gonna depend on how thick it is, and stuff. But I would say, if you wrap it in a non-Allomantic metal, that's not good for getting to the metal. It's viable, but it just depends on how thick it is, and things like that. Like, sometimes things have been plated to keep the access to the metal off, but usually you would want to do that in aluminum, to make sure.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 22, 2017)

Here's the idea we came up with for a Mistborn or Hemalurgist with access to A-Duralumin and other Allomantic powers, for this example we'll use Steel. You have a sizeable bead made of concentric layers of Steel sandwiched in between layers of Duralumin, and for consistency a rod of Duralumin that runs through all layers to the core of the bead. The idea is that as you burn Duralumin, the thin layer covering the Steel burns away giving you access to a Duralumin-enhanced Steelpush. This burns the Steel immediately reducing the bead to the next thin layer of Duralumin. Burn that thin layer of Duralumin away and you have another charge of Steel at your disposal. This would let you rapid fire charges of Duralumin-enhanced Allomancy. It would even let you alternate metals or burn two simultaneously.

Here's a rudimentary cross-section:

D:Duralumin

S:Steel

DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

SSSSSSSSDDSSSSSSSS

SSSSSSSSDDSSSSSSSS

DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

SSSSSSSSDDSSSSSSSS

SSSSSSSSDDSSSSSSSS

SSSSSSSSDDSSSSSSSS

DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

SSSSSSSSDDSSSSSSSS

...

Or

D:Duralumin

S:Steel

P:Pewter

B:Brass

DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

SSSSSSSSDDPPPPPPPP

SSSSSSSSDDPPPPPPPP

SSSSSSSSDDPPPPPPPP

DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

SSSSSSSSDDSSSSSSSS

DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

BBBBBBBBDDBBBBBBB

BBBBBBBBDDBBBBBBB

DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

PPPPPPPPDDSSSSSSS

PPPPPPPPDDSSSSSSS

PPPPPPPPDDSSSSSSS

...

Fly over with Pewter and Steel, land with Steel, blast the area with massive Soothing, go to town with unenhanced Pewter and Steel unless you decide to use Duralumin again.

etc.

Thoughts?

Edited September 21, 2023 by Duxredux
added thought

[Trusk'our he/him]

38 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Talked with my brother about the thread on safely burning Harmonium, including @Trusk'our's idea to Plate the outside with another allomantic metal.

Glad to see I was able to inspire somebody else with a great idea 

39 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Here's the idea we came up with for a Mistborn or Hemalurgist with access to A-Duralumin and other Allomantic powers, for this example we'll use Steel. You have a sizeable bead made of concentric layers of Steel sandwiched in between layers of Duralumin, and for consistency a rod of Duralumin that runs through all layers to the core of the bead. The idea is that as you burn Duralumin, the thin layer covering the Steel burns away giving you access to a Duralumin-enhanced Steelpush. This burns the Steel immediately reducing the bead to the next thin layer of Duralumin. Burn that thin layer of Duralumin away and you have another charge of Steel at your disposal. This would let you rapid fire charges of Duralumin-enhanced Allomancy. It would even let you alternate metals or burn two simultaneously.

Fly over with Pewter and Steel, land with Steel, blast the area with massive Soothing, go to town with unenhanced Pewter and Steel unless you decide to use Duralumin again.

etc.

Thoughts?

Fascinating. Yes, I think that this could work. I think you'd need more than one bead though, as you'd need to burn a layer of steel and a layer of duralumin simultaneously.

But yes, it should work. This would be pretty interesting to see if the Misborn (or Hemalurgist) got the amount of metal in each layer just right they'd effectively be able to use multiple duralumin blasts without needing to replenish their metal reserves. It would give them a massive advantage against their opponents, as one of the biggest weaknesses of A-duralumin is that it wipes out your entire metal reserve, but someone using this method would have effectively removed it.

I honestly wish I could give you more than one reputation for this 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I can totally see an allomancers box of gobstopper sized metal balls all with layers of different metals.  

I don't think you need the duralumin core. I believe that all of the duralumin would burn itself away even if it does preserve the other metal.  If all the duralumin is connected it would most likely be a waste.  

But as @Trusk'our said I think multiple beads would work best. 

What metals are best used with duralumin?  Probably would only need a few of these beads made.  Some alternating duralumin and steel others alternating duralumin and pewter or iron or the emotional allomantic metals.  Maybe time bubbles with duralumin could do a thing?  

My big question would have to be this.  Duralumin gnats can still burn duralumin right?  

So even if you reached a point where all of your ingested beads were duralumin only you could just burn a couple of those layers off.  

What if you placed a slice of metal in between the two of them that can't be burnt? Or some other food safe option?  And then you alternate sides. Or just a metal that is often burnt but not always on say tin, copper or bronze.  

Using a ball bearing of steel and duralumin again with copper being the middle divider. 

DSDSCDSDS 

This would always allow a section of steel being available for each section of duralumin and leave you with a commonly used metal in-between.  Heck if you put aluminum in between you could always purge your system following a day of use.  

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

35 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

What metals are best used with duralumin?  Probably would only need a few of these beads made.  Some alternating duralumin and steel others alternating duralumin and pewter or iron or the emotional allomantic metals.  Maybe time bubbles with duralumin could do a thing?  

Depends on what you want to do, but if you're thinking combat then steel (but not iron; that would be a death wish), pewter, and possibly Bendalloy, though the extra speed wouldn't likely be all that useful compared to just burning it normally.

Tin would just blind/deafen you- not a good power in conjunction with duralumin bursts.

 Bronze could pierce Copperclouds and sense things not normally detected through its power (such as when Vin was able to tell with perfect clarity what emotions Breeze was Soothing in Elend in WoA), so that would probably be useful if used correctly. 

Copper could do the opposite and briefly shield from basically any Bronzesense, but like Bendalloy wouldn't be terribly useful in a single blast or rapid burst.

Cadmium freezes you in place for a while, actively harming you in most circumstances.

Aluminum is a bad choice in general, and I see no reason why duralumin would change that.

Nicrosil doesn't really change from duralumin. Probably.

Emotional Allomancy could potentially stun enemies, so that would actually be a good option to use in duralumin bursts.

So yeah, only steel, pewter, zinc, and brass would be super useful in duralumin bursts for a fight I would think (possibly bronze and Bendalloy too).

35 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

What if you placed a slice of metal in between the two of them that can't be burnt? Or some other food safe option?  And then you alternate sides. Or just a metal that is often burnt but not always on say tin, copper or bronze.  

Using a ball bearing of steel and duralumin again with copper being the middle divider. 

I don't know that it would work that way; the reason the balls with layers don't burn all out is because you'd have a layer of duralumin between each of the other layers of metals, which stops the burning process of those metals via duralumin until the Allomancer burns the duralumin down enough to access the next layer.

I don't think that having a divider would do anything since the metals would still be exposed to the Allomancer's stomach and would just end up being added to the metals the duralumin could burn through in a single burst; Allomancers can't choose specific metals in their stomach to burn (as far as we know)- otherwise they'd just burn some chosen flakes of metal with their duralumin and be able to pull off the burst feat without the layered metal balls.

Interesting take though.

EDIT: 

Quote

My big question would have to be this.  Duralumin gnats can still burn duralumin right?  

So even if you reached a point where all of your ingested beads were duralumin only you could just burn a couple of those layers off.  

Yes, you can burn the duralumin alone if you wanted. This is why the ball layers would work; the duralumin doesn't burn through itself in a single blast, just other metals. So you burn through a layer of, for example, pewter, then become stopped by the next layer of duralumin. You burn through the duralumin layer briefly and then expose the next layer of metal which you want to burn.

Might take some practice for the Allomancer to get the process down without just immediately setting off the next layer of metal with a duralumin blast, but I think that it could certainly be achievable.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Trusk'our

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Cadmium freezes you in place for a while, actively harming you in most circumstances.

During a fight, yes, but if you want to skip some time, let's say 16 days, what's better than cadmium with duralumin? Basically the best way to jump far into the future without aging.

5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Aluminum is a bad choice in general, and I see no reason why duralumin would change that.

Shade encounter. Also aluminum can cleanse your soul and body of unwanted effects of other investiture which can be very handy when fighting with some individuals who have access to invested art. 

Spoiler

Douglas

What benefit does an aluminum savant get? Yes, I know this would normally never happen because aluminum burns itself up. Suppose a mad scientist with a willing Mistborn test subject shoved a feeding tube down the Mistborn's throat to pump in a continuous stream of aluminum, replenishing it steadily so there's always a new unburned supply. Add another tube to pump out excess water if necessary. What would he discover? Alternatively, what would Sazed with his Shard-granted knowledge know?

Brandon Sanderson

Ha, that IS a little silly of a method. However, on the extreme end of aluminum, I have in the notes the possibility of cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other Investitures. You'd get really good at this, and maybe even be able to cleanse the body of other impurities.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 27, 2012)

Tress spoilers:

Spoiler

I wonder now if you could cleanse yourself of Riina's curse. I think it should be possible based on those Brandon's words.

 

 

Add to it chromium which with duralumin would leech instantly. Very handy against highly invested opponents.

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Shade encounter. Also aluminum can cleanse your soul and body of unwanted effects of other investiture which can be very handy when fighting with some individuals who have access to invested art. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Douglas

What benefit does an aluminum savant get? Yes, I know this would normally never happen because aluminum burns itself up. Suppose a mad scientist with a willing Mistborn test subject shoved a feeding tube down the Mistborn's throat to pump in a continuous stream of aluminum, replenishing it steadily so there's always a new unburned supply. Add another tube to pump out excess water if necessary. What would he discover? Alternatively, what would Sazed with his Shard-granted knowledge know?

Brandon Sanderson

Ha, that IS a little silly of a method. However, on the extreme end of aluminum, I have in the notes the possibility of cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other Investitures. You'd get really good at this, and maybe even be able to cleanse the body of other impurities.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 27, 2012)

Tress spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

I wonder now if you could cleanse yourself of Riina's curse. I think it should be possible based on those Brandon's words.

 

True, but this is the Mistborn forum; I wanted to stay focused on Scadrien related things.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

During a fight, yes, but if you want to skip some time, let's say 16 days, what's better than cadmium with duralumin? Basically the best way to jump far into the future without aging.

Also true, but I was relating it to the use of duralumin in bursts, mostly for combat purposes. But if you wanted to skip lots of time duralumin and cadmium would be the way to go.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Add to it chromium which with duralumin would leech instantly. Very handy against highly invested opponents.

Once again true; it would be useful against Compounders or certain Cosmere-wide entities.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Duxredux he/him]

On 9/21/2023 at 9:15 AM, Trusk'our said:

Glad to see I was able to inspire somebody else with a great idea 

Fascinating. Yes, I think that this could work. I think you'd need more than one bead though, as you'd need to burn a layer of steel and a layer of duralumin simultaneously.

But yes, it should work. This would be pretty interesting to see if the Misborn (or Hemalurgist) got the amount of metal in each layer just right they'd effectively be able to use multiple duralumin blasts without needing to replenish their metal reserves. It would give them a massive advantage against their opponents, as one of the biggest weaknesses of A-duralumin is that it wipes out your entire metal reserve, but someone using this method would have effectively removed it.

I honestly wish I could give you more than one reputation for this 

Thanks! Also, thanks for giving the seed for this idea.

Digging into it a bit further, duralumin has a pretty low melting point, only 350-380 C and is easily malleable. I'm no metallurgist or blacksmith, but I think this would let you take your bead of non-duralumin metal, dip it in molten Duralumin, let it partially cool, then press shell halves of the next metal on as the new layer. Dip in the molten Duralumin again, repeat until it has enough charges for what you want and can still be swallowed. Where this doesn't work is for metals that have a lower melting point that duralumin which I think includes tin, zinc, bendalloy, and pewter. However, as mentioned earlier, duralumin is quite malleable and can be rolled into sheets. Encase these softer metal shells in a sheet of duralumin prior to dipping the bead in the liquid duralumin and let it age harden. Hopefully should work? Might need to sand down the duralumin between layers, but I suspect later on it wouldn't be too difficult to mass produce these kinds of beads, fine tuning the charge in each layer by weight. Someone like Ranette could invent the concept, but once the techniques are known it should be relatively easy for any metallurgist to produce these.

On 9/24/2023 at 1:33 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't think you need the duralumin core. I believe that all of the duralumin would burn itself away even if it does preserve the other metal.  If all the duralumin is connected it would most likely be a waste.  

But as @Trusk'our said I think multiple beads would work best. 

What metals are best used with duralumin?  Probably would only need a few of these beads made.  Some alternating duralumin and steel others alternating duralumin and pewter or iron or the emotional allomantic metals.  Maybe time bubbles with duralumin could do a thing?  

I could see a few options working there. with how you describe layering alternate metals without the duralumin sandwich. That might be a simpler method - with the caveat that sandwiching with a burnable "blank" metal like Duralumin is necessary to fire an enhanced burst of Allomancy and then get near immediate access to the metal that just barely was consumed. I'm making an assumption that as the body burns metal beads, it starts at the surface of the metal and works its way in. If you had a iron nail stuck in a chunk of lead, I would expect that you would burn the head of the nail first and then the metal itself burns down the shaft into the interior of the lead, but I'm going off of that WoB at the top. Duralumin burns at a constant rate, so I assume it would burn the surface of a sphere equally up until it exposed the next layer and the Duralumin rod. That's how I'm visualizing it, but I'm open to other interpretations. 

I would be interested to see what everyone's preferred loadouts, especially if they figure out how to work around Identity contamination with Hemalurgy and Compounding becomes a thing again. Say... if we were building a loadout for Marsh. Compounding and storing the compounded attribute takes time. Hypothetically if Marsh had a steel/duralumin bead, in a pinch if his Steelmind was running low, I think he could store Steel into the bead, burn it with Duralumin, and immediately recharge his Steelmind before getting access to A-Steel again by burning the sandwich layer. Duralumin while compounding: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901

On 9/24/2023 at 2:08 PM, Trusk'our said:

Bronze could pierce Copperclouds and sense things not normally detected through its power (such as when Vin was able to tell with perfect clarity what emotions Breeze was Soothing in Elend in WoA), so that would probably be useful if used correctly. 

Copper could do the opposite and briefly shield from basically any Bronzesense, but like Bendalloy wouldn't be terribly useful in a single blast or rapid burst.

Cadmium freezes you in place for a while, actively harming you in most circumstances.

Aluminum is a bad choice in general, and I see no reason why duralumin would change that.

Nicrosil doesn't really change from duralumin. Probably.

Emotional Allomancy could potentially stun enemies, so that would actually be a good option to use in duralumin bursts.

So yeah, only steel, pewter, zinc, and brass would be super useful in duralumin bursts for a fight I would think (possibly bronze and Bendalloy too).

I agree with most of these in isolation, but you can do some cool things when added together.

For example, I imagine that Duralumin enhanced Allomancy is LOUD to a Seeker. Adding some copper to each of your layers would let you generate an enhanced coppercloud at the exact moment you used your enhanced Pewter, Steel, or Brass. Unless you want every Seeker in the city currently burning to know exactly where you are and what you are doing, adding in Copper will help.

If Dumad had bothered using Duralumin with his Leeching attempts on Wayne he would have figured out a lot earlier that Wayne had way more stores than he had, rather than trying to burn away his stores in stages. Leeching with Duralumin would let you shorten the necessary contact time but still have dosed charges.

Cadmium in isolation is probably a bad choice - unless you also have Bendalloy. Before chucking Cadmium out, I'd check if you can do a modified version of the stunt that Marasi and Wayne did where Marasi froze a group of baddies and Wayne could drop sections of them back into real time. What I don't know is if you need to have Savant level Bendalloy control to pull this off, or if the time bubble diameters allow you put up Bendalloy bubble, walk to the edge, put up Cadmium, and then walk out through the normal space created by the intersection. Making an asymmetric shield of frozen time could be VERY useful. I'm sure there's some useful combat applications to effectively putting a section of space into isolation for a week. Think running away from pursuit, run through a door in a bunker or down an alley and then pop up a frozen time shield isolating the entrance for a week. I think the shield would just stay up even you walk away, but I'm iffy on that one and open to alternative outcomes. That said, having access to Bendalloy does reduce the overall coolness of this bead design since Bendalloy gives you a breather to replenish your metals anyway unless fighting another speedster.

[Trusk'our he/him]

46 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Thanks! Also, thanks for giving the seed for this idea.

You're welcome 

46 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Digging into it a bit further, duralumin has a pretty low melting point, only 350-380 C and is easily malleable. I'm no metallurgist or blacksmith, but I think this would let you take your bead of non-duralumin metal, dip it in molten Duralumin, let it partially cool, then press shell halves of the next metal on as the new layer. Dip in the molten Duralumin again, repeat until it has enough charges for what you want and can still be swallowed. Where this doesn't work is for metals that have a lower melting point that duralumin which I think includes tin, zinc, bendalloy, and pewter. However, as mentioned earlier, duralumin is quite malleable and can be rolled into sheets. Encase these softer metal shells in a sheet of duralumin prior to dipping the bead in the liquid duralumin and let it age harden. Hopefully should work? Might need to sand down the duralumin between layers, but I suspect later on it wouldn't be too difficult to mass produce these kinds of beads, fine tuning the charge in each layer by weight. Someone like Ranette could invent the concept, but once the techniques are known it should be relatively easy for any metallurgist to produce these.

Interesting. Yes, I think that if you layered the duralumin in sheets over the other metals that it could work, though melting it would be prefferable.

I wonder if you dipped the metals that couldn't take duralumin's melting point in liquid nitrogen if that would stop them from melting until the duralumin layer cooled, kind of like how one makes fried ice cream.

49 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I'm making an assumption that as the body burns metal beads, it starts at the surface of the metal and works its way in. If you had a iron nail stuck in a chunk of lead, I would expect that you would burn the head of the nail first and then the metal itself burns down the shaft into the interior of the lead, but I'm going off of that WoB at the top. Duralumin burns at a constant rate, so I assume it would burn the surface of a sphere equally up until it exposed the next layer and the Duralumin rod. That's how I'm visualizing it, but I'm open to other interpretations. 

I imagine it working that way as well; the outer most layer of the metals burns first with the metals slowly shrinking inward during metabolism.

51 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I would be interested to see what everyone's preferred loadouts, especially if they figure out how to work around Identity contamination with Hemalurgy and Compounding becomes a thing again. Say... if we were building a loadout for Marsh. Compounding and storing the compounded attribute takes time. Hypothetically if Marsh had a steel/duralumin bead, in a pinch if his Steelmind was running low, I think he could store Steel into the bead, burn it with Duralumin, and immediately recharge his Steelmind before getting access to A-Steel again by burning the sandwich layer. Duralumin while compounding: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901

I'll have to illustrate my layered metals I think, but I'll have to do that later.

As for Marsh using duralumin, yes, that is a very, very powerful combo; Compounding takes Feruchemy up to the next level, as you can suddenly get very large stores of attributes without needing to sacrifice anything more than some metal flakes. Duralumin takes Compounding up to the next level, as suddenly you can create a store of Investiture in the blink of an eye rather than having to burn your Metalminds for however long it would normally take.

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

I agree with most of these in isolation, but you can do some cool things when added together.

For example, I imagine that Duralumin enhanced Allomancy is LOUD to a Seeker. Adding some copper to each of your layers would let you generate an enhanced coppercloud at the exact moment you used your enhanced Pewter, Steel, or Brass. Unless you want every Seeker in the city currently burning to know exactly where you are and what you are doing, adding in Copper will help.

Cadmium in isolation is probably a bad choice - unless you also have Bendalloy. Before chucking Cadmium out, I'd check if you can do a modified version of the stunt that Marasi and Wayne did where Marasi froze a group of baddies and Wayne could drop sections of them back into real time. What I don't know is if you need to have Savant level Bendalloy control to pull this off, or if the time bubble diameters allow you put up Bendalloy bubble, walk to the edge, put up Cadmium, and then walk out through the normal space created by the intersection. Making an asymmetric shield of frozen time could be VERY useful. I'm sure there's some useful combat applications to effectively putting a section of space into isolation for a week. Think running away from pursuit, run through a door in a bunker or down an alley and then pop up a frozen time shield isolating the entrance for a week. I think the shield would just stay up even you walk away, but I'm iffy on that one and open to alternative outcomes. That said, having access to Bendalloy does reduce the overall coolness of this bead design since Bendalloy gives you a breather to replenish your metals anyway unless fighting another speedster.

Good points. I definitely agree with the idea of a better Coppercloud as you say; since a Seeker can sense the difference between flaring and regular burning (and there would be no difference in the metals pulse patterns), it is likely that it is even easier to detect duralumin bursts. Duralumin copper could definitely be useful to counter this.

I hadn't thought of using cadmium and Bendalloy together in this way, as I normally just see them as cancelling out. But with a Slowness Bubble acting as a shield to deflect projectiles (and Bendalloy preventing it from slowing you down), I could see some use for cadmium in combat.

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

If Dumad had bothered using Duralumin with his Leeching attempts on Wayne he would have figured out a lot earlier that Wayne had way more stores than he had, rather than trying to burn away his stores in stages. Leeching with Duralumin would let you shorten the necessary contact time but still have dosed charges.

I don't know about that one; Wayne was able to continue using his Bendalloy not because he had stores so vast that Dumad couldn't Leech all of them when he came into contact with Wayne, but because Wayne used his slight of hand to keep swallowing beads of Bendalloy. If Dumad used duralumin in conjunction with his chromium, he'd probably be worse off since he'd have lost all his Chromium stores and only have effected the metals currently inside Wayne's stomach.