Odium's_Shard Posted January 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) I can see that the fact that they are invisible is troubling, considering our supposed disposition. But 'truthspren' isn't canon, they just require truth. So they could have a whole new name that deal with the fact that they like truth to be unobscured, but that makes it seem likely that they should. EDIT: God I'm bad at spelling. Edited January 8, 2012 by Odium's_Shard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechvarry Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 I'm glad I saw this thread through Odium's_Shard's sig. This is pretty hot. I seem to remember ancient discussions trying to place what "order" she would belong to. I don't know how that discussion ever progressed, or what the commonly-believed answer is, but I remember people putting her in the group attributed to Creativity. Looking at my Ars Arcanum, I see this is where people are associating her with Truth (Shash: Creativity/Honesty). Anyway, with drawing as a creative act, we have an Honest method of storing and a Creative way of accessing. As for no Stormlight being drawn, if each of the 10 systems are truly different, some could be End-Neutral while others are End-Negative or... something. I don't have very strong logic on this part. That still doesn't explain why her Memories didn't capture them before but do now. Same reason Syl hasn't always been fully sentient, I'd assume. The bond is something that grows, perhaps Cultivates. The irony truly resides in Shallan's deceit. The back of the book refers to her as "the liar". But that seems to match the theme of the book's characters anyway. The surgeon who kills, the scholar (a seeker of truth) who deceives, the mass murderer with a love of all life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turos Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Same reason Syl hasn't always been fully sentient, I'd assume. The bond is something that grows, perhaps Cultivates. Hmmm... Cultivation, nice. However, Syl is an honorspren so she's like both Cultivation and Honor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's_Shard Posted January 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Perhaps this could be explained using a Venn Diagram? Made it myself just now. This could perhaps argue that spren are End-Neutral. But as well as magic systems, if we say that spren can be linked to one of the Shards, flowing outwards (from spren, to spren mixes, to pure spren, say) then this would imply that Syl is End-Positive, which as far as we know, is true, because she enables Kaladin to 'burn' Stormlight to achieve a palpable result as much as Vin's metals help her. Also, please reference to the Venn Diagram in any further posts related to this discussion. It took me a full five minutes hour of my ample precious time to create, after all (even if it is make-shift)! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truthless Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Perhaps this could be explained using a Venn Diagram? Made it myself just now. This could perhaps argue that spren are End-Neutral. But as well as magic systems, if we say that spren can be linked to one of the Shards, flowing outwards (from spren, to spren mixes, to pure spren, say) then this would imply that Syl is End-Positive, which as far as we know, is true, because she enables Kaladin to 'burn' Stormlight to achieve a palpable result as much as Vin's metals help her. Also, please reference to the Venn Diagram in any further posts related to this discussion. It took me a full five minutes hour of my ample precious time to create, after all (even if it is make-shift)! I think we might be confusing ourselves by using these Mistborn terms to try and describe another Shardworld's magic systems. The presence of Cultivation complicates things in ways I just don't think we can anticipate right now. I mean, to my mind, Cultivation is a better analogue to Preservation than Honor, so that would make Cult. End-Positive, and Honor End-Neutral. Just confusing. My main concern is if a Shard itself call really be End-Neutral at all, or if that is only achieved by the interaction of two shards. I do love Venn diagrams, and I do love your Venn diagram. But it makes it seem simple, so I'm suspicious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 the terms End-Positive, End-Neutral, and End-Negative were used in the AA for Alloy of Law which was written by a 17th shard member (or possibly Hoid), so I suspect these are terms that can be used for magic systems across the Cosmere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolo Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 Is It possible that only Preservation and Ruin are end- positive/negative. ? After all, I see no evidence in AonDor or BioChroma of any kind of gain or loss. AonDor is done completely outside the body, and Biochroma does not destroy any or gain it. Unlike in Hemalurgy, no power is lost in the transference of power, and since everyone is born with a finite amount of power, there can be no net gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Monstrosity Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977 WindrunnerCan all Investitures be classified as end-positive, neutral, or negative? Brandon SandersonYes, though in the overwhelming majority of cases, it's end-positive or at least neutral. Hemalurgy really is an oddity in the cosmere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 Is It possible that only Preservation and Ruin are end- positive/negative. ? After all, I see no evidence in AonDor or BioChroma of any kind of gain or loss. AonDor is done completely outside the body, and Biochroma does not destroy any or gain it. Unlike in Hemalurgy, no power is lost in the transference of power, and since everyone is born with a finite amount of power, there can be no net gain. It depends on how the classifications work. I regard AonDor as end-positive because the effect requires the introduction of Investiture into the system from an outside source - the body doesn't necessarily need to be a factor here. I'm ultimately inclined to think of Awakening as end-neutral because the amount of Investiture in the system remains the same through the use of the magic. Even though Breath can be lost on death, it's NOT lost as a result of Awakening something. Surgebinding could go either way, depending on exactly how to define the process. Obviously there's an argument for end-positive, because power comes from Stormlight, but there is also the fact that Stormlight seems to occur normally on Roshar - it's there for the taking, as it were, so that a Surgebinder is using what's available in-system rather than drawing it from somewhere outside (as in the case of Allomancy or AonDor). Personally I think Surgebinding is end-positive as the power comes from somewhere other than the user, and there's a net shift in the power available to that person, but it could be argued. Perhaps it's dependent on Realms. It could be that the definition relates to how much power exists/is available to users in the Physical realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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