WoR spoilers When did Shallan's bond start

[Fallen Rope]

To form a Nahel bond something traumatic has to happen make a gap in the spirit web.

But all the bad things that happen to Shallan, that we know of, happened after her mother tried to kill her.

Since Shallan had a Nahel bond at that point, what started the bond.

[cem]

I'm not sure that trauma is absolutely necessary to begin the bond. Kaladin was also bonded, albeit very loosely, to Syl before he got conscripted and even before Wistiow's death. I guess it's more of a prerequisite for progression to full Radiant-hood. A little change to the soul is fine without being it cracked, so to speak. But if you want more, then bad things need to happen to you first.

Edited August 6, 2014 by cem

[kaladamSB]

I also always wondered this. Not only when the bond started, but when it was in relation to Jasnah's bond to ivory. I always saw her as having a head start on everybody, but after WoR I'm not so sure if thats the case.

Kind of hi jacking the topic at this point, my appologies.

[maxal]

I'm not sure that trauma is absolutely necessary to begin the bond. Kaladin was also bonded, albeit very loosely, to Syl before he got conscripted and even before Wistiow's death. I guess it's more of a prerequisite for progression to full Radiant-hood. A little change to the soul is fine without being it cracked, so to speak. But if you want more, then bad things need to happen to you first.

 

I agree with you except there is one major difference between Kaladin and Shallan: Shallan used stormlight before her traumatic event and she managed to advance herself far enough to transform Pattern into a blade.... Kaladin has been bonding Syl for years, true, but he only  started drawing on stormlight after he said the oaths (or shortly before I am not sure anymore). He had to say the third oath to get Syl to transform into a blade...

 

Something is fishy with Shallan.... Here breaking event is said to be the murder of her mother, but in fact it is the event that broke her bond to Pattern. The bond happened before, so something must have happened before. It is strange Brandon would have left that outside the Shallan book.... We are about to get any additional flashbacks from her, so I guess we'll have to figure it out from her main POV.

Edited August 6, 2014 by maxal

[Moogle]

Shallan's mother was willing to kill her. I don't think she was a nice person. I think it's a probable that her childhood wasn't as happy and nice as she made it seem like.

 

The Seons on Elantris can bond people no matter how much trauma they've endured. I think spren bonding is the same, though if you want to bond a spren so tightly that it grants you Surgebinding, I think that's when you need to have a "cracked soul".

[Dun Sphere]

A very good question in my opinion, especially considering the nature of the spren that bonded her. What kind of lies would have initially attracted pattern to her and what was she doing that caused her mother to realize that she was a "Radiant".

 

 Here breaking event is said to be the murder of her mother, but in fact it is the event that broke her bond to Pattern.

 

Was it actually said that her bond to pattern was broken? I thought he was just sort of locked away in a box. 

Edited August 6, 2014 by Dun Sphere

[cem]

I agree with you except there is one major difference between Kaladin and Shallan: Shallan used stormlight before her traumatic event and she managed to advance herself far enough to transform Pattern into a blade.... Kaladin has been bonding Syl for years, true, but he only  started drawing on stormlight after he said the oaths (or shortly before I am not sure anymore). He had to say the third oath to get Syl to transform into a blade...

 

Something is fishy with Shallan.... Here breaking event is said to be the murder of her mother, but in fact it is the event that broke her bond to Pattern. The bond happened before, so something must have happened before. It is strange Brandon would have left that outside the Shallan book.... We are about to get any additional flashbacks from her, so I guess we'll have to figure it out from her main POV.

Another difference between Kaladin and Shallan is that Kaladin had to wait till the Third Ideal to summon Syl as a weapon, while Shallan did it before that. I think there was WoB that Shallan was at the Fourth Ideal as of the end of WoR. IIRC, that would mean she summoned Patternblade while she was at the Second Ideal, since she spoke two Truths in tWoK and WoR.

 

I don't disagree with fishiness. But maybe these are because Syl had to come to the Physical Realm on her own, while Pattern had the support of his people. Or maybe it works differently with different spren, Cryptics and honorspren are very, very different from one another after all.

[maxal]

Was it actually said that her bond to pattern was broken? I thought he was just sort of locked away in a box. 

 

I think it was broken. She had to say the oaths again to re-trigger it, pretty much like Kal had to do with Syl.

 

 

Another difference between Kaladin and Shallan is that Kaladin had to wait till the Third Ideal to summon Syl as a weapon, while Shallan did it before that. I think there was WoB that Shallan was at the Fourth Ideal as of the end of WoR. IIRC, that would mean she summoned Patternblade while she was at the Second Ideal, since she spoke two Truths in tWoK and WoR.

 

I don't disagree with fishiness. But maybe these are because Syl had to come to the Physical Realm on her own, while Pattern had the support of his people. Or maybe it works differently with different spren, Cryptics and honorspren are very, very different from one another after all.

 

You make a good point and my theory is that the moment at which a spren is able to take the shard form differs from one order to the order. I even think it may differ from one spren to another spren or from one knight to another. Kal was not ready to have Syl as a blade before. He was not accepting it. He has been in denial of his powers all thru WoR. He refused to come forward with them, to use them even he was convince Dalinar would steal them as if someone could steal that. It is only when he finally accepted he was a Radiant he got to have a blade.

 

It could be it took much less time for Shallan to come to the same conclusion. She never were in denial of her powers and she kept using them. She did not like using the blade, but I figured it was because it triggered too many bad memories.

[Fallen Rope]

I think there was WoB that Shallan was at the Fourth Ideal as of the end of WoR. IIRC, that would mean she summoned Patternblade while she was at the Second Ideal, since she spoke two Truths in tWoK and WoR.

If she is at the fourth Ideal then there is one more, that could be about what started the bond/let her use stormlight.

I think tWoK has two Truths

1. When she turned the goblet into blood, she said "I am afraid" and she was keeping that a secret

2. "I killed my father"

In WoR

3. That she killed her mother.

 

What could the final one be. She has no more dead relatives.

Maybe 4. "I killed the real Shallan and have been using a lightweave all this time" 

[maxal]

If she is at the fourth Ideal then there is one more, that could be about what started the bond/let her use stormlight.

I think tWoK has two Truths

1. When she turned the goblet into blood, she said "I am afraid" and she was keeping that a secret

2. "I killed my father"

In WoR

3. That she killed her mother.

 

What could the final one be. She has no more dead relatives.

Maybe 4. "I killed the real Shallan and have been using a lightweave all this time" 

 

It has to be profound truths about herself: it does not have to be about death or murder... What if the last truth was about her love life? What if it is about admitting who she really loves? Or maybe it could be about Helaran: Helaran was a coward, he chose to abandon us.

[jefftucker0525]

A couple things I noticed. Its not required that you be broken to get a Spren bond, it just makes it easier for whatever it is that transforms someone from normal to Radiant to seep into the cracks of your spirit web. We have a WoB on that.

 

Also we have a WoB that each Order progresses differently. Windrunners gain their blade at the 3rd oath and Lightweavers only have the 1st oath then the rest are truths. We don't yet know at what truth a Lightweaver gains their blade.

[Chrono]

Shallan's mother was willing to kill her. I don't think she was a nice person. I think it's probable that her childhood wasn't as happy and nice as she made it seem like.

 

This. When Shallan describes her ideal life to Hoid, one of the things she mentions is that her mother is alive and that she loves her. Shallan's mother didn't have to even be violent or abusive towards her. Even an emotionally distant parent can be devastating to a young child. 

 

Shallan has also lied to herself about multiple things in her past, including her killing her mother. I don't see why her ideal childhood before her mother's death couldn't be any different. 

[maxal]

A couple things I noticed. Its not required that you be broken to get a Spren bond, it just makes it easier for whatever it is that transforms someone from normal to Radiant to seep into the cracks of your spirit web. We have a WoB on that.

 

Could you find the WoB? I knew being broken was not a criteria to attract a spren and to start bonding, but I thought it was needed to become a Radiant.

[jefftucker0525]

I couldn't find the exact quote, but heres a few I found that I think make sense.

 

Q:What other magic systems in the Cosmere have that same kind of, "If you use it a lot it gets better?"

A: It is a little bit more like wedging open cracks in the soul by letting the Investiture come in, and it can open the cracks more.

This isn't exactly what I wanted but it shows the basic idea that the soul (or spirit web) can be cracked to allow Investiture inside more easily.

 

 

Q: How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

A: There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan is a step higher than Kaladin

Emphasis mine.

 

 

I included this because there was talk of her having done 5 oaths, or atleast that's how it came accros to me, shes only done 4. The 1st oath and 3 truths

1. Shes afraid

2. She killed her father

3. She killed her mother

[maxal]

I couldn't find the exact quote, but heres a few I found that I think make sense.

This isn't exactly what I wanted but it shows the basic idea that the soul (or spirit web) can be cracked to allow Investiture inside more easily.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

 

I included this because there was talk of her having done 5 oaths, or atleast that's how it came accros to me, shes only done 4. The 1st oath and 3 truths

1. Shes afraid

2. She killed her father

3. She killed her mother

 

I must admit I do not recall the context of the second oath, but doesn't "I am afraid" sound weak as a truth when compared to the other two?

[Fallen Rope]

"What am I?" she whispered. "I'm terrified"

this is true

The bedroom transformed around her

It was enough of a truth to let her soulcast so I think it counts. She was afraid about the soulcaster, her relationship with Kabsal and seeing the spren in her drawings. See was keeping all of this a secret and lying about not being terrified.

Each truth seems to older than the last one, this might still be true for the 4^th if my idea about the final truth being what cracked her. I also wonder when she learnt about the 1^st ideal and said it.

Edit: Also since it was the 1^st truth it is the weakest.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Fallen Rope

[maxal]

Edit: Also since it was the 1^st truth it is the weakest.

 

I have thought of that too.

[kari-no-sugata]

I wouldn't be surprised if the progress in Radianthood we actually see Shallan go through is a bit different to normal Lightweavers, since she already had a bond with Pattern. Certainly she never had to re-swear the First Ideal. It would be interesting to know whether or not the truths that Shallan speaks in tWoK actually counted towards her overall Radianthood level with Pattern or just helped resurrect her bond with Pattern (I'm presuming that the Cryptics Shallan talks to in tWoK are not Pattern). Could be either of both.

 

Regarding Shallan's original bonding with Pattern, I had initially wondered if she came to it via a positive route (playing with light, childhood innocence) but since Pattern says it's the lies (that prevented her from breaking) that initially attracted him I came to suspect there is some further trauma in her childhood instead. My pet theory is that she had a twin sister who died but there's lots of possibilities.

 

[maxal]

My pet theory is that she had a twin sister who died but there's lots of possibilities.

 

Interesting.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of an abusive unloving and unfaithful (as she was having extra-marital relations with another man) mother who cared for nothing saved her elder son. In her lie, Shallan would have created the perfect family where everyone loves everyone and where Helaran is the greatest man alive, after all, he has to be as mother loved him so much.....

 

Yours is great too. I wouldn't have thought about it.

[Savanorn]

I couldn't find the exact quote, but heres a few I found that I think make sense.

This isn't exactly what I wanted but it shows the basic idea that the soul (or spirit web) can be cracked to allow Investiture inside more easily.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

 

I included this because there was talk of her having done 5 oaths, or atleast that's how it came accros to me, shes only done 4. The 1st oath and 3 truths

1. Shes afraid

2. She killed her father

3. She killed her mother

 

 

Isn't that one more than Kaladin? 

 

1. I will protect those who cannot protect themself.

2. I will protect even those I hate.

 

Don't get me wrong, Shallan is definitely not at five. 

Edited August 8, 2014 by Savanorn

[rhandric]

Remember, though, that Pattern has a very loose definition of lies -- anything that's not a literal truth is, to him (and likely all Cryptics), a lie. This includes sarcasm, exaggeration, and even drawings. So the lies that attracted him when she was younger might just be her art, assuming she drew more than just Memories.

[kari-no-sugata]

Remember, though, that Pattern has a very loose definition of lies -- anything that's not a literal truth is, to him (and likely all Cryptics), a lie. This includes sarcasm, exaggeration, and even drawings. So the lies that attracted him when she was younger might just be her art, assuming she drew more than just Memories.

 

I entirely agree that Pattern has a very loose definition of "lie". However, this is what Pattern says: I know... little of humans. They break. Their minds break. You did not break. Only cracked. It is the lies that save you. The lies that drew me.

To me what Pattern means here is "I was attracted by the lies that saved your mind from breaking". Logic and the context strongly suggests that this is what originally drew him to Shallan in her childhood.

It would be nice if we had an example of a Radiant becoming one via a positive method and Shallan's positive personality would fit that but I don't see any way to reconcile Pattern's quote above with such a theory. Also, it may be that Radiant spren specifically look for people who almost "broke" (and came out stronger) because such people would better handle the horrors of a Desolation.

 

I tend to think of Shallan's mental state as a "dancing elephant" - it's not how well the elephant can dance that is impressive it's that it can dance at all. (ie it's amazing that Shallan isn't more messed up than she is)

[hoser]

 

I entirely agree that Pattern has a very loose definition of "lie". However, this is what Pattern says: I know... little of humans. They break. Their minds break. You did not break. Only cracked. It is the lies that save you. The lies that drew me.

To me what Pattern means here is "I was attracted by the lies that saved your mind from breaking". Logic and the context strongly suggests that this is what originally drew him to Shallan in her childhood.

It would be nice if we had an example of a Radiant becoming one via a positive method ...

One way of seeing Pattern's initial attraction is that he was drawn by the creativity Shallan's lies demonstrated (Creativity being the primary attribute of lightweavers).  While Shallan did break more later and her lies saved her, that was after Pattern had bonded her and she actually weakened the bond when she was broken. 

Syl reported being drawn by Kaladin's squad's gratitude and she worked with him before Amaram enslaved him.  Between depression and the loss of Tien, he was somewhat broken, but the emotions that drew her came from Kal's protecting and leading. 

I would argue that positive behavior is vital to the spren's initial attraction.  For the bond to develop, I guess there needs to be brokeness, but I see that the Radiants have all demonstrated positive behaviors.  Even Szeth's lawfully evil into insanity behavior could be seen as a positive devotion to rules should he develop a bond. 

[kaellok]

Could you find the WoB? I knew being broken was not a criteria to attract a spren and to start bonding, but I thought it was needed to become a Radiant.

 

I found a few WoB that are somewhat pertinent to this thread:

 

 

Q:  When does a person become a Surgebinder? Because Kaladin talks about when he was a child, about it being a familiar feeling, and Shallan obviously was younger. Or is it when they speak the Words?

A:  The bond starts forming before the words are spoken, but if the words are never spoken that bond will eventually evaporate and get broken. But the bond will start forming before. Just like an emotion attracts a spren, acting in the way that the spren you would eventually bond will start drawing them toward you and that will start to create that bond

 

 

Q:  Is there a specific # of Ideals that they have to do before they can get the Shardblade?

A:  It depends on the Order.

Q:  How did Pattern actually become a Shardblade even though he hadn't been fully pulled into the Physical Realm?

A:  He was pulled into the Physical Realm before, when Shallan was younger.  And she almost broke her bond.

Q:  He didn't go mad though.

A:  She didn't completely break the bond.  She didn't reject him completely.  But it was dangerous for a while.

 

 

Q:  Where was Pattern before Shallan drew him?

A:  He was around. The bonding process had started when Shallan was young but then she pushed him away and he withdrew mostly to the Cognitive realm until the bonding was started again and she pulled him fully into the physical when she drew him.

 

 

 

Q:  What other magic systems in the Cosmere have that same kind of, "If you use it a lot it gets better?"

A:  It is a little bit more like wedging open cracks in the soul by letting the Investiture come in, and it can open the cracks more.

 

I've spent at least an hour searching for the specific WoB I remember, which I think is the one that jefftucker is referencing.  I remember tht it said something like that it's experiences that cause the cracks in the spiritweb, and that the experiences don't have to be bad or negative for that to happen.  Suuuuper annoyed that I can't find it now.

[hoser]

I found a few WoB that are somewhat pertinent to this thread:

...

I've spent at least an hour searching for the specific WoB I remember, which I think is the one that jefftucker is referencing.  I remember tht it said something like that it's experiences that cause the cracks in the spiritweb, and that the experiences don't have to be bad or negative for that to happen.  Suuuuper annoyed that I can't find it now.

 

The back cover of WOR seems relevant, but lacks the authority of WoB.  Could this be what you are looking for?

... Men seek what was lost;  I fear the quest will destroy them.

It is the nature of the magic.  A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit.  Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves; they can brace a broken soul, but they can also widen its fissures.