08.03.2014 - manaheim - Redemption's Edge - Ch5 and 6 (L)

[manaheim]

Two chapters this week since they're a little shorter. I hope that's okay.

 

Thanks for reading, and Happy Monday!

[andyk]

Yet again, I found that the writing generally flowed fine. Other than that...

 

I wasn't surprised that the previous chapter turned out to be a test, but I was disappointed. It felt like the first significant decision that Candace had made for herself - to defy Paul's orders - had actually just been doing what he wanted and expected of her, undermining any sense that she has agency over her situation. And I really, really loath Paul at this point. His treatment of her is inconsistent to the point of being emotionally abusive. If that's what you're aiming for then well played, but if not then I'm curious - what attitude do you want readers to have towards Paul by this point?

 

I've finally pinned down something that's been bothering me from early on, which is that Candace doesn't seem consistent in her attitudes. Take her response to Michael - you say that she's in awe of him, but she doesn't act or talk like it. Is she actually awed and overwhelmed by the situation she's in, holding onto some level of dread and respect for these huge religious figures? Or is she as willing to defy and give cheek to authority as her speech indicates? If this is meant to show that she's conflicted then that's interesting but you might need to show that these feelings are in conflict, not just sitting alongside each other.

 

I liked the stuff in the subway. The conflict of attitudes with Michael and the display of his powers was interesting. That said, Michael's reason to use the subway seemed inconsistent. He doesn't want people to see them flying, but then later he's happy to risk people seeing them fight? And why do this training in an urban area at all?

 

Michael's reference to the fact that Candace isn't the first person in this position was good. It raises the question of what's happened to previous candidates and why they chose Candace, and that's intriguing. At least with Michael I'm pretty sure I'm meant to think he's a jerk.

[Mandamon]

pg 3: Ok, so yes it was a test, which was my main guess.  Something still bothers me about that, though.  I feel cheated for some reason.

--Ah.  Andyk has nailed it.

 

pg 6: "pashmina"

-had to look this up

 

pg 7:  "The wings! Michael!"

--it took her that long?

 

pg 8:“The coffee shop. You were there! You were both there!”:

--okay, I like this.  I don't remember that part, but I like the reference.

 

pg 11:

Michael's a real jerk.  It fits in with the other heavenly personas you have depicted here but once again strikes me as wrong somehow...But I won't open that can of worms again.

--yet you do acknowledge it the next page, so that helps some.

 

pg 14: "He stopped in the middle of the rubble-strewn courtyard of asphalt, dirt, and shards of glass. He faced her."

--okay, again I don't know in which spot they landed from Heaven and why they needed to travel to this point.  Couldn't they just have appeared here?

 

pg 20: "walk back."

...to where?

 

I liked these chapters more, especially the action of the fight/training, but almost felt like they should have come before she was sent down the first time.  They knew she didn't know how to use a sword.  It's just sloppy to send an untrained person out to do a trained one's job.  This ties in with what andyk is saying about Paul's treatment of Candice, especially when the punishment for failure is so...eternal.

[manaheim]

Thanks for the comments, guys!

 

So I've been sort of avoiding giving "the reason" behind this because I didn't want to predispose anyone... AND because if it doesn't stand without my explanation, then it may not stand at all.

 

That said... (mind you this is intended as an explanation- not as an excuse. I hear what you all are saying and appreciate the frank feedback)

 

Heaven, and the people in it, are basically supposed to be an example of corporate America.

 

Your boss is some weird guy who doesn't make a ton of sense, doesn't give you a ton of information, claims his orders come from somewhere higher- "so sorry about that, not much I can do", etc.

 

You struggle with insane tasks- some of which cause you to do thing to other people that completely defy everything you were raised to believe as far as fairness, treating other people the way you would want to be treated, etc.

 

etc. etc. etc.

 

That's why everyone in Heaven is the way they are.

 

As far as Paul, specifically is concerned... he's been doing this 1200 years. If you asked him why he's acting this way (and maybe Candace should), he would say "I'm two thousand years old, and have been doing this for 1200 of them... after  a while, no matter how horrible it is, it just becomes mechanical". [praraphrasing]

 

Most people who read this love Paul, but I have had 2-3 who HATE him. There seems to be no in-between. Very polarized. I love him, personally. All of this is very interesting. I wonder how much of it comes down to our individual personalities. I dunno.  I lack the writing skills or the psychology degree to pick it apart.

 

I think at this point I'm going to stop posting these up here, because while the feedback is wonderful, it's clear that certain elements of the story are burrs under the saddle for some folks, and many of those I cannot change without making it "not the book I intended".  At the end of the day, as much as I know these things have been teeth-grinding points, they're pretty much exactly what I was shooting for...   So, either I did a REALLY good job, and no one will want to read it because everyone is an cremhole or really really annoying... OR... I did a terrible job and need to bin this and try something a little less weird.

 

There is no doubt this book is pretty weird.

 

I'm curious to hear Robinski's reaction, since I know he didn't utterly hate anyone up to this point, so I hope he'll still post his comments despite my surrendering.

 

Again... I really can't thank you all enough. I've really appreciated all your feedback, and hopefully my next attempt won't drive you all bonkers. lol

 

Thanks again!

[Shivertongue]

Slowly been working my way through the chapters as I have time (I came into the middle of these). Was going to post in each of the threads, but I think it might be more helpful to post all of my reactions in this one, as someone who read the first six chapters without a week in between each.

[manaheim]

Sure, Shiver. Whatever works best and easiest for you, and thanks for taking the time!

 

By the way, if any of you who have been reading are interested in reading the full thing, I'd be happy to send it along.  Someone asked me this once, I think... I think it was Robinski??

[manaheim]

Oh, mandamon... I meant to mention...

 

You commented on her saying "You were both there". Based on some great suggestions I received, I went back and had both Paul and Michael at the Coffee Shop in the first chapter. They each utter one sentence, which Candace hears but swears she must be hearing things. This was my making it so the first chapter had just a hint of the fantastic in it, which it was lacking before.

 

Because of this, I had to have her recognize the voices at some point, because there's no way she wouldn't.

[Mandamon]

I figured it was something like that.  I just didn't remember it specifically, what with fiveish weeks in between.

 

Thanks for sharing this much with us.  I know it's not great to look forward to getting put through the grinder each week, but I hope we've at least given you some food for thought.  You have the right idea in writing what you want.  We're supposed to be giving feedback, not forcing you to change the core of the book.  If your reader wants a different book than you intended, then they should go read that one instead!

[manaheim]

Thanks, Mandamon.

 

Yes, this has really been invaluable, and as much as I wince when I open the link to writing excuses, I know it's all going to be useful information. I usually have to go away from it for a while and think about it before I go "Yeah, you know, they're probably right." lol

 

Anyway, yes, super helpful. Thank you.

[andyk]

As Mandamon said, thanks for sharing this with us, especially when it's generated a lot of tough feedback. I know that can be hard, and just having the guts to face it is one of the most important parts of writing.

 

If you think you have an audience for this don't give up on it. It didn't work for me, but every book has people who don't like it. Goodness knows Dan Brown sells by the truckload, but I can't stand his prose.

 

And you can clearly write, so I look forward to whatever you share next.

[manaheim]

Thanks, Andy.  Actually, I was thinking today about how a number of you had commented that my writing was good and easy to read.... kinda made me think "Hey wait... I totally skipped that... and that's sorta huge."

 

What you say on the audience is food for thought. I definitely have had both hot and cold reactions to this... and in truth, when I first set out to write it, I was like "Uh, I'm gonna have to get a pen name because I'm going to be stoned in the streets if this ever gets published."

 

Well, we'll see. I'm mulling over next steps, and in the meantime, I'm grinding through the chapters cleaning it up.

 

Thanks again!

[Robinski]

(Initial post scriptum - apologies for the long post. I hope it helps. Sorry to hear you're taking a pause, consider the Alpha Readers, more on which below - and hope to read something new from you soon.)

 

I found these chapters pretty effective. Michael felt a bit clichéd in places, I thought, but there was an enjoyable Hollywood kind of quality to him, which I think fits the tone of the story. I like that Candace's progress with the sword is slow, but noticeable, although that might give issues later, I suppose, if you really need her to perform.

 

I think my main difficulty was with her fear of flying, which I can't remember being foreshadowed. I thought it felt a bit convenient as a story mechanism. I suspect she might be placed in some situation later on where she has to fly or fail, fair enough, but I hope it's dealt with from a different angle, 'cause protagonist overcomes deep-rooted fear to save the day is a bit par for the course, it would be nice to see something different, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

 

Comments on the comments:

 

I would endorse Andy's comment about some of the reactions seeming a bit inconsistent. I would not have mentioned that 'out loud' in my own comments, but now that he says it, I can see that it's been at the back of my mind. As to Paul, I don't have that issue with him, but maybe I'm not reading as deep as others. I'm sure he's got hidden steel, but his style is to try and be chummy with everyone.

 

Mandamon's comment reminds me that I thought the reference to pashmina a bit strange.  I knew what one was, but my image if a middle aged ladies from the burbs having coffee on a Wednesday afternoon. You've got my comments on Michael above - I was less troubled by him than some others, perhaps because of the tone that I get from the piece.

 

Your corporate America angle is interesting. I really don't think I would have got that, not so far anyway. If you want people to have the in mind, you might need to drop in some more direct hints in that direction. It's an interesting metaphor, one which could be handled in different ways (from all out parody to subtle metaphor). I suppose I'm saying that you might want to steer a little closer to the former, to make it clearer.

 

On the recognition of the voices in the coffee shop - (1) I have a bad memory for detail; (2) I don't remember the reference to the voices, although I see you said you went back and added it (in the re-write?); (3) I have a really bad memory for detail, so you I hope it's fairly blatant in the coffee shop scene, for numpties like me!

 

And finally, thanks for sharing. And please do share the whole piece. Search for the Alpha Readers thread on this forum, which contains Mandamon's instruction for submission to the group. In short, there's a Dropbox. Timescales for completing an Alpha Read are longer of course - well mine are - like try next year (after Write About Dragons; NaNoWriMo and Christmas - and finishing Memory of Light and Shadows Beneath)!!!

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

Detailed comments:

 

Page 5 – “...suppressed...” – Didn’t sound right to me – “contained”?

 

Page 6 – Not sure about Michael’s lock bouncing “mirthlessly”

 

Page 12 – Do we know about Candace’s crushing fear of flight? I don’t remember that. Not a big deal, but I found myself wondering if this was foreshadowing a characteristic that would later help with a plot point.

 

Page 16 - "...dirt and small rocks kicked up in her face..." - Great image, the juxtaposition of the great and graceful wings with their effect (in this case), dusty and gritty. Also, the scratched and worn condition of Candace's blade is fascinating - makes me wonder who the previous owner was and how it came to be that way. But, I'm struggling with her flipping the blade up and catching it. That's like a Errol Fynn move. Okay, she's agile and adroit, but I don't buy her being able to do that.

 

Page 18 - The phrase "irritated love" tripped me up. I spent several minutes mulling over that.

 

Page 19 - Not sure that a process can persist, it's not sentient. Michael persisted, certainly, but I would have thought the process continued, or something like that. Just my opinion. Also, repetition of "with a".

[manaheim]

Super helpful as always, Robinski.  Thanks!

 

On the fear of flying, it was foreshadowed a couple of times, but it's been a while since you've read that.  I actually often wonder about the convenience of it as a plot mechanism, but so far you're the first to call it out. :-)

 

I'll definitely do a re-read and look for inconsistencies in the responses and whatnot.

 

I have ground my teeth over the pashmina thing a bit... maybe I'll just say a "drape of white cloth" or something like that.

 

I'll also consider trying to turn the dial up on the corporate America thing... I fear it when I do that, as usually I find I have to dial most things DOWN.

 

On the alpha read... I can't actually do that quite yet, mainly because I'm re-working the relationship of Candace and Seth, so the way it stands now chapters 9-24 or whatever are inconsistent with the changes I've made in 1-8.  At the rate I'm going, it'll take at least a few months to finish this editing pass. After which, maybe I can send it along.

 

You probably won't see anything new from me for quite a while. lol

 

Thanks again!

[manaheim]

So... to address some of the complaints about Paul, I ran back to Chapter three (Paul explaining to Candace she has to kill people) and tried to lace in a chance for Paul to explain himself.  I'd love to know how this works for people (it's still rough, mind you)...

 

“So you expect me to just accept that?”

He nodded. “I do. Frankly, you don’t have many other options. Well, you do have the one, I suppose.”

She winced.

Paul shrugged. “I’m not trying to threaten you, Candace. It’s just that it is a real option. You either play this our way, by our rules, by the rules we are bound to, or we re-route you to Hell and find someone else to take your place. While you may find this assignment objectionable, there’s a line of souls who would jump at the chance. I’m afraid it’s as simple as that.”

“How can you possibly be so glib about this? About murder! If this is Heaven, then murder is a sin, and you sit here casually dolling out death as if it were wafers at the storming altar!”

A weight seemed to settle over Paul and he leaned back in his chair. “We’ve just met, obviously. You don’t know me, other than what you’ve seen in the past twenty minutes or so, and I’ll be the first to admit my behavior is… different. What you also don’t know is that I’ve been doing this… I’ve had to accept this… for many hundreds of years. I don’t mean to be glib. No matter how horrible it is, you eventually get used to it. It becomes… rote. And it’s not like I have the power to change my fate. Unfortunately, the same goes for you.”

Candace took a deep breath. She closed her eyes, listened to the sound of her breathing, and took a few seconds in the darkness to find her center. She let her breath out in a thin stream, opened her eyes, and peered at Paul. He smiled.

“So, I’m an angel.”

“You are.”

She looked to either side, searching for wings that were obviously not there, and turned back to Paul with her eyebrows up. A smirk spread across her features.

He grinned. “Ever the practical girl.”

[manaheim]

The forum changed my profanity to "storming". That took me a second. I was like "What the hell? When did I start writing like Brandon?" lol

Edited August 17, 2014 by manaheim

[Robinski]

So... to address some of the complaints about Paul, I ran back to Chapter three (Paul explaining to Candace she has to kill people) and tried to lace in a chance for Paul to explain himself.  I'd love to know how this works for people (it's still rough, mind you)...

 

For my part, I think it's certainly an improvement. I'm sure they could be at it all day trawling through the morale implications, and it's going to be a theme that runs through the story, no doubt, but I think it's a descent start at setting out Paul's position early on.