Orders of passion

[bmcclure7]

This is just speculation but I thought it would be fun to map out Possible void binding orders  On the theory that they are a more passionate version of the Knights radiant 

1.  Stormriders:  Odium's equivalent to wind runners,  They are hatred and malice in its pure unadulterated form. 

2.  Wrathbringers:  Odium's version of skybreakers, Their passion is vengeance, There Similar to the storm riders but with more regulation Is and rules which direct That hatred only at those who deserve it.

3. Passion singers, odiums edge dancers,  there passion is compassion. 

 

4. Realised, odium version of dust bringers.  There passion is  Desire.

 

Will breakers:  void equivalent of wheelshapers their passion is chaos and  Anarchy.

Sightweavers,  Odium's version of light weavers, Their passion is art,  Specifically on losing your sense of self And becoming a vehicle for art. 

 

Secret takers:  Odium's version of truth watchers,  Their passion is uncovering secrets. 

That's all I have so far do you have any ideas for the rest of the orders. 

[Kendelian]

Interesting idea. However, we should keep in mind that the Radiants get their power from the Nahel bond, which I believe used the Surge of Adhesion. The problem is that Odium cannot bind that Surge, so these orders would likely arise from either a modification to how Odium makes Fused and gives them their powers or it would originate from corrupted Radiant spren. The first one could arise from developments with the Shard of Odium in RoW that I won’t go into details over due to spoilers.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

On 8/19/2023 at 0:00 AM, bmcclure7 said:

This is just speculation but I thought it would be fun to map out Possible void binding orders  On the theory that they are a more passionate version of the Knights radiant 

1.  Stormriders:  Odium's equivalent to wind runners,  They are hatred and malice in its pure unadulterated form. 

2.  Wrathbringers:  Odium's version of skybreakers, Their passion is vengeance, There Similar to the storm riders but with more regulation Is and rules which direct That hatred only at those who deserve it.

3. Passion singers, odiums edge dancers,  there passion is compassion. 

 

4. Realised, odium version of dust bringers.  There passion is  Desire.

 

Will breakers:  void equivalent of wheelshapers their passion is chaos and  Anarchy.

Sightweavers,  Odium's version of light weavers, Their passion is art,  Specifically on losing your sense of self And becoming a vehicle for art. 

 

Secret takers:  Odium's version of truth watchers,  Their passion is uncovering secrets. 

That's all I have so far do you have any ideas for the rest of the orders. 

Cool names, I like the concept!

4 hours ago, Kendelian said:

Interesting idea. However, we should keep in mind that the Radiants get their power from the Nahel bond, which I believe used the Surge of Adhesion. The problem is that Odium cannot bind that Surge, so these orders would likely arise from either a modification to how Odium makes Fused and gives them their powers or it would originate from corrupted Radiant spren. The first one could arise from developments with the Shard of Odium in RoW that I won’t go into details over due to spoilers.

RoW spoilers are allowed in this forum.

I don't think Odium would have any problem creating Spren that can form bonds that mimic or straight-up recreate the Nahel Bond, any Cognitive Entity can theoretically bond with a person, and bonds manifest extra powers on Roshar. Bonds are Connections, which form all the time between everyone and everything. Adhesion is just the Surge that manipulates Connection, which indeed Odium could not recreate. The problem would be that the True Spren equivalents Odium would create might not necessarily count as True Spren and thus might not grant Surgebinding at all, but instead some other powers. And even if they do grant Surgebinding, it would be regular old Surgebinding and not Voidbinding, which requires both Odium and H&C to work in tandem, such as with Corrupted True Spren. What @bmcclure7 is suggesting is possible, if the Voidbinders defect to Odium's side and create an organisation that is a Knight Radiant analogue.

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, Kendelian said:

Interesting idea. However, we should keep in mind that the Radiants get their power from the Nahel bond, which I believe used the Surge of Adhesion. The problem is that Odium cannot bind that Surge, so these orders would likely arise from either a modification to how Odium makes Fused and gives them their powers or it would originate from corrupted Radiant spren. The first one could arise from developments with the Shard of Odium in RoW that I won’t go into details over due to spoilers.

1. No you are wrong, the fused can not uses Abhesion. But odium still can, he gave this ability to ishar after all.

2. We see both regals and unmade with Adhesion.

3. We see voidspren and the fused bond with parshmen without Adhesion.

4. We know that void binding will have a version of Adhesion from the chart. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by bmcclure7

[bmcclure7]

15 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Cool names, I like the concept!

RoW spoilers are allowed in this forum.

I don't think Odium would have any problem creating Spren that can form bonds that mimic or straight-up recreate the Nahel Bond, any Cognitive Entity can theoretically bond with a person, and bonds manifest extra powers on Roshar. Bonds are Connections, which form all the time between everyone and everything. Adhesion is just the Surge that manipulates Connection, which indeed Odium could not recreate. The problem would be that the True Spren equivalents Odium would create might not necessarily count as True Spren and thus might not grant Surgebinding at all, but instead some other powers. And even if they do grant Surgebinding, it would be regular old Surgebinding and not Voidbinding, which requires both Odium and H&C to work in tandem, such as with Corrupted True Spren. What @bmcclure7 is suggesting is possible, if the Voidbinders defect to Odium's side and create an organisation that is a Knight Radiant analogue.

My ideas mainly come from the void binding chart. 

https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-verizon&sca_esv=559545509&sxsrf=AB5stBjxoemIK1JtEYM-WTuazuPmza7jPw:1692833165357&q=voidbinding+cart&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj_pvD79vOAAxXuEVkFHY8WDZYQ0pQJegQIEBAB&biw=412&bih=718&dpr=2.63#imgrc=ymrImr-7E-2vpM

The gliffs are clearly a stilised version of both the orders and surges. 

 

Compare 

https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-verizon&sca_esv=559545509&sxsrf=AB5stBjxoemIK1JtEYM-WTuazuPmza7jPw:1692833165357&q=voidbinding+cart&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj_pvD79vOAAxXuEVkFHY8WDZYQ0pQJegQIEBAB&biw=412&bih=718&dpr=2.63#imgrc=ymrImr-7E-2vpM&imgdii=lYWHshBI_G3_EM

Edited August 23, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

21 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. No you are wrong, the fused can not uses Abhesion. But odium still can, he gave this ability to ishar after all.

Odium never gave Ishar any abilities. He convinced Ishar to experiment with Surgebinding which he already possessed, so far as we can tell.

21 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. We see both regals and unmade with Adhesion.

3. We see voidspren and the fused bond with parshmen without Adhesion.

4. We know that void binding will have a version of Adhesion from the chart. 

These aren't Adhesion, they're manipulations of Connection. All applications of Adhesion (at least Spiritual Adhesion) are dealing with Connections, but not all dealings with Connection are Adhesion. If it was, then Duralumin Feruchemy would also be Adhesion, which it clearly isn't.

[bmcclure7]

8 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Odium never gave Ishar any abilities. He convinced Ishar to experiment with Surgebinding which he already possessed, so far as we can tell.

These aren't Adhesion, they're manipulations of Connection. All applications of Adhesion (at least Spiritual Adhesion) are dealing with Connections, but not all dealings with Connection are Adhesion. If it was, then Duralumin Feruchemy would also be Adhesion, which it clearly isn't.

Ok now I'm confused how did ishar have Adhesion on ashin? 

I assumed that any manipulation of connection would be considered Adhesion, but you might have a point.  Still it does appear to be similar at least. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

27 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Ok now I'm confused how did ishar have Adhesion on ashin?

We don't know. Humans had Surgebinding on Ashyn in some way or form, but we don't know how or why. All we know is that Odium convinced the Ashynites to experiment with their Surgebinding, with Ishar being the first, and that led to the destruction of Ashyn. Odum giving them Surgebinding is a valid theory, but there's literally no evidence to support it, so who knows? The way it's worded, it could also be that the Ashynite magic system wasn't even Surgebinding as we know it, but something else that could just also manipulate the ten specific Surges.

Quote

I assumed that any manipulation of connection would be considered Adhesion, but you might have a point.  Still it does appear to be similar at least. 

It would be considered Adhesion by Rosharans, but they consider all Invested Arts Surgebinding, so it doesn't count. Adhesion is just one way of accessing Connection. All manipulations of Connection will be similar in result because they're all doing the same thing, just through different means.

@bmcclure7 please try to avoid double-posting, it's against site rules.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[alder24]

25 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Ok now I'm confused how did ishar have Adhesion on ashin? 

I assumed that any manipulation of connection would be considered Adhesion, but you might have a point.  Still it does appear to be similar at least. 

Ashynite Surgebinding wasn't the same as Rosharan, Rosharans would call what was happening on Ashyn as Surgebinding but they would also call Allomancy a Surgebinding too. Whatever it was, Ishar was able to manipulate connections, just like Rosharan Bondsmith, but he wasn't like Rosharan Bondsmith. Plus the entire star system is invested by Honor and Cultivation (and Odium), not just the planet Roshar - just because Odium came with Ashynites on Roshar doesn't mean Ashyn was invested by Odium and manifested Odium's magic system there.

Also Brandon is calling most magic on Ashyn Cultivation-based, as Cultivation once visited that planet. However it's hard to say if that was pre-destruction or post-destruction, or even if the destruction of Ashyn changed anything in terms of from which Shard the magic comes from. I now think that Ishar was using Cultivation's magic system, that naturally spawned on Ashyn, and was encouraged by Odium to experiment more, but Odium wasn't invested on Ashyn - at that point he was still hunting Shards and was careful not to invest too much in a system, so he wouldn't get bound to it and stuck.

Spoiler

Kimbobhi

Is it possible to Surgebind using gaseous Investiture other than Roshar's?

Brandon Sanderson

So here's the thing. It depends on your definition of Surgebinding. Surgebinding would be the Rosharan definition of all of the magics. They would call the Metallic Arts Surgebinding. You are binding the powers of creation, which the word "Surge" is that word translated from Rosharan into English, that's what the word means in Rosharan, is the powers of creation. The fundamental forces which inspired me to make this. So they would consider all of them to be Surgebinding. And that's just what you're doing, you are binding and using those powers.

Other people, including Khriss, would not agree with that definition. They would say: Surgebinding is specifically binding, through the Nahel bond, the spren, the specific manifestations of Investiture on Roshar, by using specific sets of oaths in order to gain access to those powers. So she would say: no, that is not Surgebinding when someone uses Allomancy. I would lean with her on that one, but the other one's a viable definition.

[...]

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Argent

In the Syl interlude in Rhythm of War, she is speaking with Dalinar about his powers and the things those powers have done in the past. And what she says is "a Bondsmith bound other Surges". First of all, what other Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

One potential interpretation for you on this, remember they use Surge and spren sometimes interchangeably in-world. Just making you aware of that.

Argent

Yeah I'm aware of that. Bound other Surges....

Brandon Sanderson

That might be what she's talking about. I'm not guaranteeing it.

Argent

Then the term Bondsmith. To me it seems like she's talking about Ishar and the Ashyn stuff. So would they use Bondsmith to describe him in that place?

Argent

And that would be maybe the power of Connection, the way Lightweaving is the power of illusion?

Brandon Sanderson

So one other thing to keep aware of in the cosmere - for instance they call "Lightweaving" any illusion-based magic working on the same fundamentals. And so you could argue - and people will use it that way in-world - that Bondsmithing is both an order [of Knights Radiant] and a power that exists outside the order.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. And for instance, there were not Elsecallers to get people between Ashyn and Roshar, but on Roshar they would explain what happened there as Elsecalling. Does that make sense?

Argent

I mean, as much as these things make sense, yes.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

You have talked about writing a book about Ashyn, the first planet in the Rosharan system. You said that they have a magic system based on disease, but they are currently without a Shard. Can you tell us what the source of that magic system is?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of the magic systems in the cosmere, I kind of in my head differentiate kind of the primary worlds and the secondary worlds. And even on the secondary worlds, there is magic. And any place that a Shard has been in presence is gonna leave behind an aftereffect, but it's not always that. I would call most of the magic on Ashyn Cultivation-based, most likely. And Cultivation's in the system, but has only briefly been to that planet. But it doesn't mean that... basically, it's kind of the level of Investiture. If you go to Scadrial, on Scadrial, you're gonna have a high percentage of the population, cosmereologically, that are gonna have access to one of the Hemalurgic [Metallic] arts, right? Same thing on Roshar. And indeed, the people are going to be Invested on a level that is beyond the others. This is my in-world canon reason that people just don't come down with colds very often or have tooth decay very often, and things like that. On the primary Shardworlds, we're talking about people who are just naturally, highly Invested.

All the other worlds, though, you're still gonna have the occasional pop-up of magic, here and there. You're still gonna have effects of being in the cosmere, and things like that. Just much smaller chances. And the magic's probably going to be less likely to be planet-destroying potential, and things like that, like happened on Ashyn.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021)

 

Spoiler

R'Shara

So on Ashyn, was the magic system always diseased based?

Brandon Sanderson

That was the diseased based magic.

R'Shara

Yeah, before-

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that. It isn't exactly the same as it was.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Did Odium originally have a planet he was Invested in?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium's plan always involved not getting stuck on one

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

[Firesong]

On 8/23/2023 at 6:12 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

 

RoW spoilers are allowed in this forum.

???

What are you talking about? They are 100% allowed here, the spoiler period is long over. The book has been out for almost 3 years, much longer than 6 months. I'm confused. 

Edit: Nevermind, you said are allowed. I read "aren't allowed" and got very confused. My bad. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Firesong

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

11 hours ago, Firesong said:

???

What are you talking about? They are 100% allowed here, the spoiler period is long over. The book has been out for almost 3 years, much longer than 6 months. I'm confused. 

Edit: Nevermind, you said are allowed. I read "aren't allowed" and got very confused. My bad. 

It was directed at @Kendelian