Wild nightblood theory (debunked)

[Zerix]

TLDR version, Most of Nightblood's initial investiture was from Ruin (but actually Harmony), rather than Endowment.

There's a few wob's that I'm looking at here. First, there's a wob that Nightblood started out with more investiture than 1000 breaths would account for, then there's a wob that Nightblood is connected to Ruin in some way. The third wob stated that Harmony had to do something with Ruin's extra investiture to keep it in balance with Preservation.  The final wob related is that Nightblood has been to more worlds than Roshar and Nalthis.

So my theory is that Nightblood wasn't actually created on Nalthis, but on Scadrial. We know (from yet another wob) that Vasher and Shashara were worldhoppers before creating Nightblood, so it isn't impossible that they'd been to Scadrial. One reason they might have tried to make Nightblood on Scadrial is that they might have belived that (incorrectly) that the metal on Scadrial contained investiture. Harmony knew that he had too much of Ruin's investiture, and had to get rid of some, so helped invest nightblood (probably without them realizing) while it was being created. A possible reason for him to do this would be his shardic future sight.  

The most popular cosmere timelines don't quite fit this theory, but I wasn't able to find any wob that actually ruled out my crazy theory. 

Maybe I missed a wob somewhere, or a line in warbreaker that disproves my theory, or maybe I misunderstood something, but if I'm not, this theory accounts for the mystery of Nightblood's extra investiture, and Harmony's missing investiture.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Zerix
marking thread as debunked

[Treamayne]

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Hope that helps

Interesting Theory. Also, can you please confirm what, if any, cosmere books you have/have not read (whichever list is shorter) just so we can be spoiler-appropriate.

38 minutes ago, Zerix said:

BLUF (Bottom Line Up-Front): Most of Nightblood's initial investiture was from Ruin (but actually Harmony), rather than Endowment.

It's a BLUF when it comes before the text, and a TLDR when it comes at the end. . . Semantics, but I thought I would mention it in case you care about that kind of trivia.

38 minutes ago, Zerix said:

So my theory is that Nightblood wasn't actually created on Nalthis, but on Scadrial.

Keep in mind that with one exception (Sel Spoiler below), you do not have to be on a Shard's primary Shardworld to access their investiture. Vasher and Shashara accidentally mixed Ruin's investiture with the Breaths due to their chosen command "Destroy Evil." Since the Spiritual Realm has neither Location nor Time; that command with Intent was enough to mix some Ruin with the Endowment used in the breaths. Nightblood could have been on Scadrial at some point, but they would not have to have visited Scadrial to have Ruin's investiture.

Spoiler

The exception is, of course, Sel - where because the Dor is trapped in the Cognitive Realm, it cannot be accessed off-world by the normal methods.

38 minutes ago, Zerix said:

Harmony knew that he had too much of Ruin's investiture, and had to get rid of some, so helped invest nightblood (probably without them realizing) while it was being created. A possible reason for him to do this would be his shardic future sight. 

We do not yet know where Nightblood's awakening occurs in relation to the Catacendre - but current estimates would put it before Ruin's release from the Well.

Roughly - We know the events of Alloy of Law are after SA5 and that AoL is 341 yrs post Catacendre. Szeth would have received Nightblood from Nale at least 3 yrs before that (based on SA time gaps), and we know Nightblood was on Roshar before Dalinar went to see the Nightwatcher (+7 yrs). We also know that Vasher has been on Roshar since well before Adolin began training with the sword (+20 yrs) and we know (based on last data - subject to change) that there is about 100 yrs between Warbreaker and Way of Kings (roughly +80yrs) and that the Manywar, when Nightblood was created was at least 300 yrs before the events of Warbreaker. So, rough math means Nightblood was created about 410 yrs before Alloy of Law - or 50 yrs Pre-Catacendre.

 

So, I would say the theory is possible, but not probable - based on current information. On the "support" side we know that Vasher has only been on Nalthis and Roshar (and Silverlight, but that's not a planet, much less a Shardworld) and Nightblood has been to more than two Shardworlds. . . so where did they go that Vasher did not?

 

[Zerix]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Interesting Theory. Also, can you please confirm what, if any, cosmere books you have/have not read (whichever list is shorter) just so we can be spoiler-appropriate.

I've read everything but the secret projects (Just started Tress of the Emerald Sea) and any of the spoilers for unreleased books. 

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

It's a BLUF when it comes before the text, and a TLDR when it comes at the end. . . Semantics, but I thought I would mention it in case you care about that kind of trivia.

Thanks, I didn't know that. 

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

we know (based on last data - subject to change) that there is about 100 yrs between Warbreaker and Way of Kings (roughly +80yrs) and that the Manywar, when Nightblood was created was at least 300 yrs before the events of Warbreaker. So, rough math means Nightblood was created about 410 yrs before Alloy of Law - or 50 yrs Pre-Catacendre.

This was the part that I was having trouble confirming. The timelines that I've read put Warbreaker there in the timeline, but the only corroborating wob I found said that it happened after Mistborn, which left a bit of leeway for my theory. Is there any reason Warbreaker couldn't happen 50 years later, which is still well before WoK?

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

we know that Vasher has only been on Nalthis and Roshar (and Silverlight, but that's not a planet, much less a Shardworld)

I was unaware that there was information on what planets Vasher had been on, so that seems like it would rule out the created on Scadrial part of the theory.  Thank you for all of your input. I'd say possible, but not probable sounds like an appropriate description unless there's more information that can disprove it. 

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Zerix said:

was unaware that there was information on what planets Vasher had been on, so that seems like it would rule out the created on Scadrial part of the theory. 

This is what I was describing above. If you go to the Arcanum and keyword search Vasher (145 results) then filter "world" (17 results) or "shadesmar" (3) results you can find this WoB:

Spoiler

shoeties

Has Vasher ever been to a world other than Nalthis or Roshar, or was this his first time worldhopping?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher has only been to Roshar and Nalthis, beyond places in Shadesmar.

It's from other information and WoBs that we find out the "places in Shadesmar" is Silverlight:

Spoiler

FirstSelector

I read that you had said if you had written Khriss' essay on Nalthis, it would have been more or less that she was talking about the magic, and then mention that there were scholars on this planet that were spitting distance from, like…

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah.

FirstSelector

So, Vasher, and maybe some of the other ones have been off world--

Brandon Sanderson

Shashara has been, yeah.

FirstSelector

...Are they known to the people at Silverlight? Like--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah.

FirstSelector

Like does Khriss know Vasher?

Brandon Sanderson

Know Vasher is a different question than know of Vasher. But they are widely regarded as early cosmere scholars... They are pioneers of this sort of stuff. So yes.

Also, on the timeline: (the link shows how things shifted since the first WoB is 2012 and the last is 2020)

Spoiler

Aug. 5, 2020 

LewsTherinTelescope

How long after Warbreaker does Way of Kings take place? I know you usually don't finalize timeline details until they actually are stated in-book, but are you willing to say how far apart the books are, in the current plans?

Brandon Sanderson

I have Warbreaker happening a few generations before, right now.  However, I'm very likely to move Elantris up in time, so it's a little in the air at the moment.

LewsTherinTelescope

Thanks! I assume asking why Elantris being moved affects how far apart Warbreaker and Way of Kings are is a behind-the-scenes thing and/or RAFO?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it does.  The big linchpin is going to be when I need Sel and Scadrial to align when big crossovers start happening.  We'll know in a few years; there are things I intend to write that I could imagine needing to change, after they're finished, that will influence the timeline structure.

Hope that helps.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Zerix said:

There's a few wob's that I'm looking at here. First, there's a wob that Nightblood started out with more investiture than 1000 breaths would account for

I don't remember that and can't find it. Could you post it?

9 hours ago, Zerix said:

So my theory is that Nightblood wasn't actually created on Nalthis, but on Scadrial.

Vasher has only been on Roshar and Scadrial beyond a few other places in CR. I find it unlikely that they were on Scadrial, and that's where Nightblood was created.

Spoiler

shoeties

Has Vasher ever been to a world other than Nalthis or Roshar, or was this his first time worldhopping?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher has only been to Roshar and Nalthis, beyond places in Shadesmar.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 25, 2015)

 

And there is a timeline problem. As for now Warbreaker itself happened generations before WoK, and creation of Nightblood happened more than 300 years before Warbreaker. This fully excludes the possibility that Nightblood was created at the same time as Harmony. It's impossible as Catacendre happened around 340 years before WoK. 

Spoiler

LewsTherinTelescope

How long after Warbreaker does Way of Kings take place? I know you usually don't finalize timeline details until they actually are stated in-book, but are you willing to say how far apart the books are, in the current plans?

Brandon Sanderson

I have Warbreaker happening a few generations before, right now.  However, I'm very likely to move Elantris up in time, so it's a little in the air at the moment.

LewsTherinTelescope

Thanks! I assume asking why Elantris being moved affects how far apart Warbreaker and Way of Kings are is a behind-the-scenes thing and/or RAFO?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it does.  The big linchpin is going to be when I need Sel and Scadrial to align when big crossovers start happening.  We'll know in a few years; there are things I intend to write that I could imagine needing to change, after they're finished, that will influence the timeline structure.

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 5, 2020)

Moreover Nighblood wasn't supposed to be like that. It went terribly wrong. If they wanted to involve Ruin consciously and went to Scadrial, that would mean they wanted to do something like Nightblood, so it wouldn't have been a mistake. 

 

9 hours ago, Zerix said:

TLDR version, Most of Nightblood's initial investiture was from Ruin (but actually Harmony), rather than Endowment.

And we also know Nightblood is leaking corrupted Breaths - so Breaths were put into it, they were corrupted with other investiture (Ruin's) and are leaking. So most investiture were of Endowment, but was corrupted by Ruin. Nightblood turned black in the moment of creation, so corruption happened at that time.  

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him.

Warbreaker Annotations (April 25, 2011)

 

Also also also, they didn't need to go to Scadrial - Ruin's investiture is everywhere.

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

9 hours ago, Zerix said:

The third wob stated that Harmony had to do something with Ruin's extra investiture to keep it in balance with Preservation

Harmony isn't in balance. He is imbalanced which is evident by the end of TLM. He didn't do anything with his extra Ruin investiture yet. TLM epilogue 4:

Quote

And there was a darkness within him. A different face from the one he showed. The powers were in imbalance. Ruin had always been stronger.

 

 

Nice theory but it's likely untrue. Nightblood however contains Ruin's investiture, that's a fact for sure. 

 

I need to start reading all posts in the thread before responding, Treamayne already provided all WoBs and information. 

[Firesong she/her]

Further evidence for why we know it is after, even ignoring the WoBs, Vivenna appears in Oathbringer. She is Azure. Nightblood also mentioned her name several times.