Maybe I Missed Something Super Obvious but..

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

How or by what process did Painter and Yumi connect in the first place? I realized today reading through posts that I don't understand what the mechanism was in the first place that allowed them to be so deeply Connected? Because that seems like some Unchained Bondsmith level stuff, now that I'm really considering it. 

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

How or by what process did Painter and Yumi connect in the first place? I realized today reading through posts that I don't understand what the mechanism was in the first place that allowed them to be so deeply Connected? Because that seems like some Unchained Bondsmith level stuff, now that I'm really considering it. 

Yumi by staccking so much rocks in her first chapters was able to attract a real spirit that was trapped by the machine. Painter also attract spirits attention by going after that dangerous Nightmare and saving the kid. This spirit ask Yumi for help and connected them together. 

Spoiler

Cheyenne Sedai

Stacking and other forms of art, like the TV dramas at the end, attract the spirits, but for some reason, painting doesn't. Could you elaborate on why, and the mechanical reasons behind that?

Brandon Sanderson

The painting would. The problem is that the way the painters are doing it, is a little too by-the-numbers. Painter isn't the only one who's just kind of doing it by rote. They have a little bit of... "commodification of art"-commentary going on in this, and things like that. I think the painting could draw the spirits; the painting does at the end. He draws Yumi, right? Which is working under the same mechanics. I think that part of it is proximity, part of it is the mechanical nature of it.

It is kind of in some ways, I think - kind of off the record - drawing the Nightmares, as well as painting the Nightmares. Because people are doing this, this is part of why the Nightmares are finding their way. And it's one of these things that happen so often in life, that the thing that you're doing in order to stop the thing from happening actually causes it to happen more. It's the American football thing, right? We put helmets on people to protect them, which makes them feel more comfortable hitting each other harder, which causes, actually, more injuries than in sports where people are unpadded. And it's one of those kinds of, "And they're painting the Nightmares to stop the Nightmares but that's also kinda drawing the Nightmares."

I do think you could draw the spirits with painting. I just think there's kind of a collection of things-- remember, what it took from Yumi to actually, legitimately draw spirits away from the machinery. It took how many centuries of practice on her part? I think it's a combination of all those factors why the paintings aren't quite drawing the spirits. And it did, right? Painter drew the spirits. Now, it's telling that he drew the spirits on the job that he wasn't required to do, because his shift was over, and he could've gone home, and he didn't. He went anyway. And that's the time the spirits noticed him. But they'd been watching him already, anyway. I think, in the chronology, if you actually go and break it down, they talk to Yumi before he actually even saves that child and say, "We've been watching someone, we got somebody for you." But that was kind of the straw that turned the camel into a superhero. I dunno, there's a mixed metaphor for you.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

10 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

How or by what process did Painter and Yumi connect in the first place? I realized today reading through posts that I don't understand what the mechanism was in the first place that allowed them to be so deeply Connected? Because that seems like some Unchained Bondsmith level stuff, now that I'm really considering it. 

A Hijo did it, the one that escaped and contacted Yumi the night before they started swapping. It's not really unchained Bondsmith level, Honor wouldn't have put a restriction on creating a bond between two people like that, nor would Connecting people like that use much Investiture (which doesn't really matter regardless since apparently, the Hijo can draw Investiture straight from the Spiritual Realm). Design, despite not being a Spren that grants Adhesion, can still mess with Yumi and Nikaro's Connection, and we know that Worldhoppers have some way of using Connection to learn different languages, so it might be possible to just manipulate regular Connections on your own, and what Bondsmiths do is that but far more powerful. The intent was only to have Yumi be anchored to something physical which would allow her to keep the memories of the simulation that were being repeated excised from her mind, the swapping was an unintended side effect, probably caused by the fact that Yumi didn't have a physical form. If manipulating Connection isn't just something general you can learn to do, then we have to assume the Hijo have the ability to manipulate it like Bondsmiths, although that wouldn't explain how design could mess with it.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yumi by staccking so much rocks in her first chapters was able to attract a real spirit that was trapped by the machine. Painter also attract spirits attention by going after that dangerous Nightmare and saving the kid. This spirit ask Yumi for help and connected them together.

Ok, that makes a lot of sense. I also conveniently forget that the Nightmare was Liyun, which may or may not had something to with it as well. At the very least, as Brandon confirmed, the spirits were already interested in Painter, and when he went out of his way to paint the stable nightmare..it made a difference in Intent. I think that tracks pretty well for me. Thanks for the WoB as well, because that cleared a lot of things up for me.

 

14 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

It's not really unchained Bondsmith level, Honor wouldn't have put a restriction on creating a bond between two people like that, nor would Connecting people like that use much Investiture, which doesn't really matter regardless since apparently, the Hijo can draw Investiture straight from the Spiritual Realm.

But two people sharing one body? That's more extreme than anything I've seen to date in the Stormlight Archives..granted SA5 may leave this sort of thing in the dust, I dunno. But that they were sharing a body seems next level to me. As @alder24 reminded me of as well, Yumi had been practicing her particular flavor of investiture usage/manipulation for  something like ~2,700 Earth years (if their year is 52 weeks long, and there are 11 days to a week) and had become someone extremely unique as well so that clearly is part of the equation.
The body swapping may indeed have been a side effect, but if so, that's pretty wild and still seems...extreme, I guess? But it's possible that the strength of the connection had a lot to do with how extremely invested Yumi is and that could go a long way in explaining it? I dunno for sure.

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

But two people sharing one body? That's more extreme than anything I've seen to date in the Stormlight Archives..granted SA5 may leave this sort of thing in the dust, I dunno. But that they were sharing a body seems next level to me

Kelsier does it now. Maybe not sharing but hijacking. I agree that's a lot of power that Hijo have, or maybe we still don't know what Connection can do as Dalinar does barely anything at all with this. 

5 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

for  something like ~2,700 Earth years (if their year is 52 weeks long, and there are 11 days to a week)

I think Hoid actually translated their years to Rosharan years to make it easy (not confirmed), so it would be like ~1900 years. We don't know how long a year is on this planet, so it might be that a year is the same as on Earth but has fewer weeks in it (unlikely). 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

5 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Ok, that makes a lot of sense. I also conveniently forget that the Nightmare was Liyun, which may or may not had something to with it as well. At the very least, as Brandon confirmed, the spirits were already interested in Painter, and when he went out of his way to paint the stable nightmare..it made a difference in Intent. I think that tracks pretty well for me. Thanks for the WoB as well, because that cleared a lot of things up for me.

 

But two people sharing one body? That's more extreme than anything I've seen to date in the Stormlight Archives..granted SA5 may leave this sort of thing in the dust, I dunno. But that they were sharing a body seems next level to me. As @alder24 reminded me of as well, Yumi had been practicing her particular flavor of investiture usage/manipulation for  something like ~2,700 Earth years (if their year is 52 weeks long, and there are 11 days to a week) and had become someone extremely unique as well so that clearly is part of the equation.
The body swapping may indeed have been a side effect, but if so, that's pretty wild and still seems...extreme, I guess? But it's possible that the strength of the connection had a lot to do with how extremely invested Yumi is and that could go a long way in explaining it? I dunno for sure.

It probably was just how Invested Yumi is. The fact that she didn't have an actual body and how Invested she is probably caused the majority of the side effects. Maybe her Invested Spiritual Aspect just supercharged the Connection, and her nature as a CS initiated the body jumping. I'm certain that wouldn't have happened if Yumi had an actual true physical body.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Kelsier does it now. Maybe not sharing but hijacking

Wait...what? What have I forgotten and/or never understood? Also fair point about Dalinar up to now.

 

8 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Maybe her Invested Spiritual Aspect just supercharged the Connection, and her nature as a CS initiated the body jumping. I'm certain that wouldn't have happened if Yumi had an actual true physical body.

Now that you mention it, she literally rewrote Painter's body..or soulcast it..or something. Yeah, that definitely tracks.

[alder24]

22 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Wait...what? What have I forgotten and/or never understood?

Kel is stampled to a mistwraith:

Spoiler

rxience (paraphrased)

Would a single spike be sufficient to staple a Cognitive Shadow to a mistwraith?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that could happen.

rxience (paraphrased)

Did that happen in the past?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Who are you thinking about?

rxience (paraphrased)

Kelsier of course!

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, he is somehow in the Physical Realm. And he does look like himself, doesn't he?

Berlin signing (May 14, 2019)

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Kel is stampled to a mistwraith:

  Hide contents

rxience (paraphrased)

Would a single spike be sufficient to staple a Cognitive Shadow to a mistwraith?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that could happen.

rxience (paraphrased)

Did that happen in the past?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Who are you thinking about?

rxience (paraphrased)

Kelsier of course!

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, he is somehow in the Physical Realm. And he does look like himself, doesn't he?

Berlin signing (May 14, 2019)

 

This just made me realise something. Kelsier is a Sliver, he probably has enough Investiture in him to make a body he possesses look like him. Does that not mean he could have possessed any random body (or living person if he wants to emulate the Fused, but I'm not sure if that would be possible) and not a Mistwraith with his bones specifically? We don't even know if Mistwraiths survived the Catacendre, technically.

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

This just made me realise something. Kelsier is a Sliver, he probably has enough Investiture in him to make a body he possesses look like him. Does that not mean he could have possessed any random body (or living person if he wants to emulate the Fused, but I'm not sure if that would be possible) and not a Mistwraith with his bones specifically? We don't even know if Mistwraiths survived the Catacendre, technically.

Hmm, you're right, this might work just like Yumi and Nikaro. However I doubt Kel would just spike a random, sapient and consious person hijacking his body - that's torture. I think in WoBs Brandon suggests that's a Mistwraith using his bones. 

Mistwraiths should survive, they hide in caves or cracks in the ground during daytime, they should be fine. 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Kelsier's Bones

I don't know if I mentioned it previously in the annotations, but I originally had TenSoon leave Kelsier's bones in Luthadel, burying them again following his appearance to Wellen and the other guard. My alpha readers, however, were very disappointed in this. They saw Kelsier's bones as a very important artifact, and they wanted to see more from them. So, I added the scene where the people in the warehouse saw TenSoon and he gave them advice, then I had him bring the bones with him.

However, I wasn't sure what to do with them. I'd already written the book at this point, and was just revising. I realized there wouldn't be another chance to make use of the bones. But I figured the readers were right, and TenSoon should bring them just in case.

Where the bones are at the end of the book is something of a mystery. They made it back to the kandra Homeland, I'll say that. However, what happened to them then . . . well, you will have to see.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Feb. 9, 2010)

 

Spoiler

iwinUlose2

In Mistborn 3, What happened to Kelsier's bones, and will they play any significance in any of the sequels?

Brandon Sanderson

The bones survived the events of the last book. We might see them again. Speaking of relic-like items, Sazed's rings survived as well. We might see those again.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

With regards to certain experiments, would it be fair to say Ishar and a certain Scadrian have similar goals? 

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitation noises* I don't know that I would say that 100%. The certain Scadrian you reference has been able to achieve the goals that he wants. Let's see if I can circumlocute this: there's a certain set of bones floating around that already has a Connection to this individual, which was useful in achieving what he wanted to do, which is not a luxury that Ishar has. 

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

22 hours ago, alder24 said:

Kel is stampled to a mistwraith:

  Reveal hidden contents

rxience (paraphrased)

Would a single spike be sufficient to staple a Cognitive Shadow to a mistwraith?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that could happen.

rxience (paraphrased)

Did that happen in the past?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Who are you thinking about?

rxience (paraphrased)

Kelsier of course!

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, he is somehow in the Physical Realm. And he does look like himself, doesn't he?

Berlin signing (May 14, 2019)

 

Absolutely the first time I've heard this. I always just assumed the spike made him more corporeal.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

3 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Absolutely the first time I've heard this. I always just assumed the spike made him more corporeal.

Kelsier says it himself in TLM, the spike is stapling him to a body

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

43 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Kelsier says it himself in TLM, the spike is stapling him to a body

I do remember that, but I just mentally glossed over it as it being his bones since TenSoon still had them. I never even considered it being a mistwraith..but that makes a lot more sense to me now that I get it.

[Saxsoon]

On 8/9/2023 at 9:49 AM, alder24 said:

Yumi by staccking so much rocks in her first chapters was able to attract a real spirit that was trapped by the machine. Painter also attract spirits attention by going after that dangerous Nightmare and saving the kid. This spirit ask Yumi for help and connected them together. 

 

The Shardcast interview was interesting to say the least. Conceivably Painter if put in a similar situation as Yumi could have done something similar.