Hemalurgy and forgewelded spikes.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I guess there could be a lot of ways of looking at this.  The idea is multiple spikes forgewelded into one super spike and then used.  

I believe it would still count as multiple spikes but my question is:

Can you place multiple spikes forge welded together into the same bind point?  Would using a forgewelded spike cause a terrible failure in the process and result in the recievers death?  

Would the charges be weaker than they were to start after heating and forging?  

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

5 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I guess there could be a lot of ways of looking at this.  The idea is multiple spikes forgewelded into one super spike and then used.  

I believe it would still count as multiple spikes but my question is:

Can you place multiple spikes forge welded together into the same bind point?  Would using a forgewelded spike cause a terrible failure in the process and result in the recievers death?  

Would the charges be weaker than they were to start after heating and forging?  

 

A few things to consider here:

• You can't forge together too many spikes, since they'd be getting larger and larger each time. It would depend on how big the initial spikes are, but at some point, they'd be too unwieldy to properly insert into a person, they'd overlap on other bind points and create problems.
• You could only forge-weld spikes of the same metal since mixing two spikes of different metals would create an alloy and make the spike unusable.

I think so long as they're in the same bind point as one spike, they'll count as such. Forge-welding two or more spikes together would add the charges together into a single spike, which I would say is doable for at least spikes with the same charge, i.e H-Tin or H-Steel with all of them holding charges for A-Steel. You would have to contend with Hemalurgic Decay, but the process of forging them shouldn't accelerate it as far as we know. In the end, you'd get a greater-than-normal charge in a single spike.

If compounding many different charges (so long as it's the same metal) is possible, then we can get a little wilder. A human in the Post-Catacendric Era can take a maximum of four spikes, five if one also uses Bavadinium. If you were to take one of each Physical Allomantic power using H-Steel and fuse them into one spike, take one of each Mental Allomantic power using H-Bronze and fuse them into one spike, take one of each Enhancement Allomantic power using H-Electrum and fuse them into one spike, and take one of each Temporal Allomantic power with H-Gold and fuse them into one spike, you could become a fully-fledged Mistborn with only the four maximum spikes you can harbor, plus one more power (Feruchemy maybe, to make yourself a Halfborn Compounder as well, provided you avoid Identity Contamination) and immunity to Sazed's control.

Alternatively, if the more useless powers like A-Aluminum, A-Cadmium, A-Electrum, and A-Gold aren't worth tracking down or spiking out, you could replace them with more of the same powers to make those ones even stronger. For example, instead of A-Aluminum, you could get a second Electrum spike with a charge for A-Duralumin and become that much stronger of a Duralumin Flarer, or perhaps get a second A-Chromium spike and be able to wipe people's reserves faster, or even get rid of Metalmind charges or other Hemalurgic spikes, which we know would take an ordinary Leecher enough time to maybe run out of metal. Instead of A-Gold, Electrum, and Cadmium, you could just get four spikes for A-Bendalloy, and be a super Slider. You could also take on Feruchemy abilities instead

You could alternatively become a Full Feruchemist, but Ferrings are rarer in general, and a lot of their powers aren't well-understood or all that useful, plus the bonus they get from getting two spikes for the same power is far more diminished than Allomancy.

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Can you place multiple spikes forge welded together into the same bind point?

No. Different types of spikes require different binding points.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Hemalurgy#/media/File:Hemalurgy_table.jpg

I also think every binding point can hold only one spike , and a welded spike isn't one, it's multiple different ones. Either only one would work and rest would cause pain, or everything would be messed up. Welding them together would likely mess up part of their charge and function too.

3 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

• You could only forge-weld spikes of the same metal since mixing two spikes of different metals would create an alloy and make the spike unusable.

Not in this case, it's about welding, not melting them. Welding them would just attach different metals together, only melting them in the welding point, which would create alloy and problems as well. It would weaken the charge but most of it should still function.

3 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

If compounding many different charges (so long as it's the same metal) is possible, then we can get a little wilder. A human in the Post-Catacendric Era can take a maximum of four spikes, five if one also uses Bavadinium. If you were to take one of each Physical Allomantic power using H-Steel and fuse them into one spike, take one of each Mental Allomantic power using H-Bronze and fuse them into one spike, take one of each Enhancement Allomantic power using H-Electrum and fuse them into one spike, and take one of each Temporal Allomantic power with H-Gold and fuse them into one spike, you could become a fully-fledged Mistborn with only the four maximum spikes you can harbor, plus one more power (Feruchemy maybe, to make yourself a Halfborn Compounder as well, provided you avoid Identity Contamination) and immunity to Sazed's control.

It wouldn't work. Spike can't hold multiple charges with different identities. A welded spike would be counted as multiple spikes with different charges, not one spike.

Spoiler

yulerule

Can you reuse a spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Uh, yes, technically, but not as easily as that question makes it sound.

yulerule

Can you re-use it if it's for the same exact thing or for a different thing? Will that change?

Brandon Sanderson

Spikes are going to get keyed by Identity--

yulerule

So you can't already spike that person. But if you spike and don't kill them can you spike the same person again?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah and if you can somehow strip the identity of the person or the spike-- So yes you can use them again but it comes into a sort of-- Like, you can't just take that spike and spike somebody else.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by alder24

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No. Different types of spikes require different binding points.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Hemalurgy#/media/File:Hemalurgy_table.jpg

I also think every binding point can hold only one spike , and a welded spike isn't one, it's multiple different ones. Either only one would work and rest would cause pain, or everything would be messed up. Welding them together would likely mess up part of their charge and function too.

Not in this case, it's about welding, not melting them. Welding them would just attach different metals together, only melting them in the welding point, which would create alloy and problems as well. It would weaken the charge but most of it should still function.

It wouldn't work. Spike can't hold multiple charges with different identities. A welded spike would be counted as multiple spikes with different charges, not one spike.

  Reveal hidden contents

yulerule

Can you reuse a spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Uh, yes, technically, but not as easily as that question makes it sound.

yulerule

Can you re-use it if it's for the same exact thing or for a different thing? Will that change?

Brandon Sanderson

Spikes are going to get keyed by Identity--

yulerule

So you can't already spike that person. But if you spike and don't kill them can you spike the same person again?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah and if you can somehow strip the identity of the person or the spike-- So yes you can use them again but it comes into a sort of-- Like, you can't just take that spike and spike somebody else.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

Oh, we're just welding them? Then yeah, it wouldn't work. But what if you melted down two spikes into one?

[alder24]

Just now, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Oh, we're just welding them? Then yeah, it wouldn't work. But what if you melted down two spikes into one?

Then I would guess it would work like melting metalminds. If they are the same metal, their charge can be usable, but only one of them, because there is still a problem with identity. If every spike were identity blanked, then you would have a working spike with multiple charges adding together. If you melted different metals together they won't work at all, it would likely cause pain as misplaced spikes do.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

Just now, alder24 said:

Then I would guess it would work like melting metalminds. If they are the same metal, their charge can be usable, but only one of them, because there is still a problem with identity. If every spike were identity blanked, then you would have a working spike with multiple charges adding together. If you melted different metals together they won't work at all, it would likely cause pain as misplaced spikes do.

Do the Identities need to match up with each other to be able to both latch onto the recipient's soul?

[alder24]

Just now, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Do the Identities need to match up with each other to be able to both latch onto the recipient's soul?

Per the WoB I've posted above and Set's experiments from TLM, I think it's confirmed that a single spike must contain only charges with the same identity or blanked identity. That's why melting spikes together won't work.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Per the WoB I've posted above and Set's experiments from TLM, I think it's confirmed that a single spike must contain only charges with the same identity or blanked identity. That's why melting spikes together won't work.

The WoB talks about if you can spike someone's power out, then spike it out again using the same spike to get a second, additive charge in the same spike once the person heals (if I understand it correctly) and that you couldn't steal a second charge for the same power from a different person because of clashing Identities. But that doesn't necessarily mean that a spike containing two different Identities wouldn't work at all, once you get two charges into the same spike. I think it could work, once the two charges end up in the spike.

Spikes of different metals wouldn't work because the alloy wouldn't be viable for the charges it contains (if at all), but if you did it with the same spike and the same charge, say two Iron spikes with strength in them, I think it could work. It gets murkier once you get to the same metal but with different charges, like two Steel spikes, but one has a charge for A-Steel while the other has one for A-Iron.

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The WoB talks about if you can spike someone's power out, then spike it out again using the same spike to get a second, additive charge in the same spike once the person heals (if I understand it correctly) and that you couldn't steal a second charge for the same power from a different person because of clashing Identities. But that doesn't necessarily mean that a spike containing two different Identities wouldn't work at all, once you get two charges into the same spike. I think it could work, once the two charges end up in the spike.

Spikes are keyed to identity (the important part of that WoB). Once you have multiple identities in a single spike, what identity is this spike keyed to? It would be like a metalmind filled by two different feruchemist, they can only access one charge, not the other. There is interference that would prevent this spike from working, just like Set's experiments proved. Either only one charge would work, or it would work only for a short time, or this interference would prevent it from working at all.

7 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Spikes of different metals wouldn't work because the alloy wouldn't be viable for the charges it contains (if at all), but if you did it with the same spike and the same charge, say two Iron spikes with strength in them, I think it could work. It gets murkier once you get to the same metal but with different charges, like two Steel spikes, but one has a charge for A-Steel while the other has one for A-Iron.

It wouldn't. Even Koloss in Era 1 were reusing their iron spikes and they were spiking new people with already charged spikes. Powers didn't add up, they either got overwritten or only the newest charge was working, while the rest were laying dormant. Melting two spikes would be like melting two pewterminds keyed to two different Feruchemist - each of them  can access only one charge, not both. Identity is a huge problem with spikes, Set proves this, era 2 compounding as well. They need to be blanked first, then melted - that could work. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Spikes are keyed to identity (the important part of that WoB). Once you have multiple identities in a single spike, what identity is this spike keyed to? It would be like a metalmind filled by two different feruchemist, they can only access one charge, not the other. There is interference that would prevent this spike from working, just like Set's experiments proved. Either only one charge would work, or it would work only for a short time, or this interference would prevent it from working at all.

I don't think the entire spike itself becomes keyed to the Identity, it's just the Investiture inside that's keyed, and it diffuses into the entire spike. That's an important distinction, which Metalminds prove. Putting two different Feruchemical charges that are keyed to different Feruchemists doesn't make it all inaccessible or make one unusable, they just coexist together. Only one charge can be drawn by one Feruchemist because Feruchemy requires that the Identities match. That isn't necessary in Hemalurgy, the recipient doesn't need to have the same Identity as the spike. The Set's experiments don't really prove anything, because they had the added variable of the spikes being made from pure Investiture, which means we can't trust that the conflicting identities were the problem. It could have been however the Set was programming the spikes instead.

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

It wouldn't. Even Koloss in Era 1 were reusing their iron spikes and they were spiking new people with already charged spikes. Powers didn't add up, they either got overwritten or only the newest charge was working, while the rest were laying dormant. Melting two spikes would be like melting two pewterminds keyed to two different Feruchemist - each of them  can access only one charge, not both. Identity is a huge problem with spikes, Set proves this, era 2 compounding as well. They need to be blanked first, then melted - that could work. 

The Koloss weren't adding new attributes to the spikes, they were taking the spikes with their original charges and putting them in new recipients. They weren't taking anything from the people they were turning into Koloss any more than the spike for A-Duralumin that Wax took had Dumad's soul it in. That's why the Koloss were so near-human at the end. The efficacy of the spikes was wearing off due to the amount of time they spent outside of bodies. They were supposed to be violent, dumb, and aggressive so that they would drive themselves to extinction if they ever got out of the LR's control. The Set doesn't necessarily prove anything with their experiments, and we don't know how exactly Identity Contamination works. As far as I know, the only thing said about it is when Marsh namedrops it in TLM, and the rest is just speculation and extrapolation based on the name alone.

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I don't think the entire spike itself becomes keyed to the Identity, it's just the Investiture inside that's keyed, and it diffuses into the entire spike. That's an important distinction, which Metalminds prove. Putting two different Feruchemical charges that are keyed to different Feruchemists doesn't make it all inaccessible or make one unusable, they just coexist together. Only one charge can be drawn by one Feruchemist because Feruchemy requires that the Identities match. That isn't necessary in Hemalurgy, the recipient doesn't need to have the same Identity as the spike. The Set's experiments don't really prove anything, because they had the added variable of the spikes being made from pure Investiture, which means we can't trust that the conflicting identities were the problem. It could have been however the Set was programming the spikes instead.

The WoB is the answer to that. It said that "the spike is keyed to identity" and you can't spike different people without blanking them first, while you can spike the same people multiple times. That means it isn't about spike not being able to hold multiple charges, it's about it not being able to properly handle multiple charges with different identities. You have to blank people before spiking them for the spike to be able to use multiple charges. Melting a spike would do the same as spiking different people with the same spike. Identity will prevent it from functioning properly. Read that WoB again.

The Set was able to give Metalborn powers with it, but it stopped working soon after. The problem is most likely tied to identity as well. That's what you get at best after melting different spikes. TLM ch 47

Quote

“No,” Labcoat admitted. “We think we need to code this in some way to give a specific Metallic Art blessing. We’re working on that. We’ve had some few gain a power for a short time using one of these spikes, but it gives out soon after.”

 

10 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The Koloss weren't adding new attributes to the spikes, they were taking the spikes with their original charges and putting them in new recipients. They weren't taking anything from the people they were turning into Koloss any more than the spike for A-Duralumin that Wax took had Dumad's soul it in. That's why the Koloss were so near-human at the end. The efficacy of the spikes was wearing off due to the amount of time they spent outside of bodies. They were supposed to be violent, dumb, and aggressive so that they would drive themselves to extinction if they ever got out of the LR's control. The Set doesn't necessarily prove anything with their experiments, and we don't know how exactly Identity Contamination works. As far as I know, the only thing said about it is when Marsh namedrops it in TLM, and the rest is just speculation and extrapolation based on the name alone.

You are right about Koloss.