Forming shardblades with spirits

[Atlas333]

So, while I enjoyed the book, I found the magic system a tad underwhelming, considering that it's limited to spirits granting items, so I'm trying to find interesting applications of the gifts.

My question is, if spirits can seemingly form into anything (provided they're willing), could they form a shardblade? 

It seems likely they could unless they're against violence, but we don't really get much evidence to say they are or aren't.

I feel like the shardblade would still be weaker than a radiant shardblade and probably couldn't reshape itself or teleport, but it could still be a powerful weapon. 

A big difference I'm curious about is what would the other half of the sword be. I feel like a shield makes thematic sense, but a scabbard is more likely. 

Also, could they form a gun? If so, would that have any special properties? (Also, for this gift, I feel like the other half would be bullets potentially???)

 

Anyway, what do you guys think? Also, are there any other applications of the magic system I missed?

Edited July 27, 2023 by Atlas333

[Elite01]

I don’t see why they couldn’t form blades but maybe they would be slightly different.  Still sharp but not cut through souls sharp but could stop a shardblade maybe. 

It raises the question of if any cognitive being or splinter brought in the physical realm would share the same traits as spren with radiant oaths. 

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

4 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

My question is, if spirits can seemingly form into anything (provided they're willing), could they form a shardblade? 

This is theoretically possible, as the hijo are basically the same as the spren, the seon and the skaze. We have the following WOB's talking about this, with a direct line about needing something pulling them into the Physical Realm.

Quote

paperstones

Could a seon or a skaze turn into some sort of Shardblade on their home planet?

Brandon Sanderson

That is theoretically possible.  They work under the same fundamentals but they would need to have something to pull them more into the Physical Realm.  

Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

Quote

Questioner

[Spren] are used to Invest a lot of things, fabrials, they turn into Shardblades. Are we ever going to see something similar with the seons, from Sel?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, they are basically the same thing. They're a little more formalized, a little more structured but they are basically the exact same thing so yes. Some of the things you see spren doing seons are capable of, some things that seons do spren will be capable of.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

So yeah, I reckon it's possible, given that the hijo already have a method of transitioning into the Physical Realm; through the Yoki-hijo (and as the hion, but I feel that's already a 'creation' so to speak). 

Would they be the exact same as the Radiant Shardblades? Hard to say. I like your theory though; that they'd be locked in the single form, but manifest as two different weapons or parts of a weapon. A sword and scabbard, or spear and shield etc, seems fairly reasonable to me. 

[Guest]

I think the most obvious combination would be sword and scabbard because it's two pieces that function extremely well together. However, I bet a hijo could also make paired weapons like dual-wielded swords notably found in the Book of Five Rings. 

[Leuthie]

On 7/26/2023 at 5:03 PM, Atlas333 said:

So, while I enjoyed the book, I found the magic system a tad underwhelming, considering that it's limited to spirits granting items, so I'm trying to find interesting applications of the gifts.

Spirits are hanging out in the planet and have to be convinced through some implementation of skill (we've seen stacking of stones, but I'm 99% sure other methods would work) to do whatever you want them to do. We've seen these spirits bond with humans to create the yoki-hijo. Seeing as the spirits also bonded to a machine that mashed everyone in the vicinity into smoke and ate their souls, I'm not all that underwhelmed by the magic system. The people just weren't using the spirits to their fullest potential.

[Nitpicking]

Notice that Painter-as-temporary-Cognitive-Shadow made a shardpaintbrush without even bonding a spren. Unfortunately, only Hoid in the entire Cosmere knows that this happened.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

54 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

Notice that Painter-as-temporary-Cognitive-Shadow made a shardpaintbrush without even bonding a spren. Unfortunately, only Hoid in the entire Cosmere knows that this happened.

He didn't make a Shardbrush. The form of Cognitive Shadows is determined by how they view themselves. What happened there was Painter making a paintbrush out of the same essence he was made of, because he viewed it as an extension of himself. He didn't create something new (he didn't have anything to create it from), he just views the paintbrush as part of himself, almost like another limb, which allowed him to manifest it. It was basically the same thing as if he sprouted another arm. Not something external, just an extension of the Cognitive Shadow state he was in.

A better way of thinking of it is this: The Nightmares don't have bamboo leaves on them before Painter encounters them. Yet, with his training of visualisation and perception, channelled through painting, he manages to imprint that idea onto the Nightmare, and they begin sprouting leaves, eventually becoming bamboo entirely. The bamboo stalks and leaves weren't there previously, but through the power of perception, they were manifested onto the Nightmare. The same goes with Painter and his brush. He views it as so important to him, to integral to who he is, that it's literally a part of him (so far as Nikaro is concerned), which allows him to manifest one out of himself.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[Treamayne]

24 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Not something external, just an extension of the Cognitive Shadow state he was in.

This was also discussed and lamshaded in Mistborn:SH (Spoilers)

Spoiler

When Fuzz remarks on Kell's clothes being part of his cognitive identity and Kelsier being upset that he culdn;t use hairs or threads to take notes when working on his "plan' in Part 1 Ch 2.

 

[Atlas333]

On 7/27/2023 at 10:47 PM, Leuthie said:

Spirits are hanging out in the planet and have to be convinced through some implementation of skill (we've seen stacking of stones, but I'm 99% sure other methods would work) to do whatever you want them to do. We've seen these spirits bond with humans to create the yoki-hijo. Seeing as the spirits also bonded to a machine that mashed everyone in the vicinity into smoke and ate their souls, I'm not all that underwhelmed by the magic system. The people just weren't using the spirits to their fullest potential.

This is probably a more accurate way to say it which is why I’m trying to think of other creative uses but all I can think of is replicating other magic systems… 

Shardplate would probably also be on the table. I wonder what the spirit to size of object ratio is. I feel like it’d take multiple spirits to form plate but that’s more of a gut I feeling. I wonder what would the other half be? Another part of the plate? Or something different?
 

At the very least a pair of gauntlets could be sick and probably more in the realm of possibility. 

[Treamayne]

On 7/26/2023 at 8:03 PM, Atlas333 said:

So, while I enjoyed the book, I found the magic system a tad underwhelming, considering that it's limited to spirits granting items, so I'm trying to find interesting applications of the gifts.

My question is, if spirits can seemingly form into anything (provided they're willing), could they form a shardblade? 

It seems likely they could unless they're against violence, but we don't really get much evidence to say they are or aren't.

I feel like the shardblade would still be weaker than a radiant shardblade and probably couldn't reshape itself or teleport, but it could still be a powerful weapon. 

A big difference I'm curious about is what would the other half of the sword be. I feel like a shield makes thematic sense, but a scabbard is more likely. 

Also, could they form a gun? If so, would that have any special properties? (Also, for this gift, I feel like the other half would be bullets potentially???)

 

Anyway, what do you guys think? Also, are there any other applications of the magic system I missed?

On 7/26/2023 at 11:38 PM, Elite01 said:

I don’t see why they couldn’t form blades but maybe they would be slightly different.  Still sharp but not cut through souls sharp but could stop a shardblade maybe. 

It raises the question of if any cognitive being or splinter brought in the physical realm would share the same traits as spren with radiant oaths. 

On 7/27/2023 at 4:08 PM, WandererNearby said:

I think the most obvious combination would be sword and scabbard because it's two pieces that function extremely well together. However, I bet a hijo could also make paired weapons like dual-wielded swords notably found in the Book of Five Rings. 

I found this WoB:

Spoiler

Cheyenne Sedai

We only know the people of Komashi as having Investiture from Virtuosity, why does their Investiture seem to be split into the two streams of power known as hion? Is this something unique to Virtuosity as a Shard, or just how it happens to manifest on Komashi?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. This will be a theme you will see wherever Virtuosity is involved. So yeah. hmmmmm interesting. This will be a theme. There is a sub theme to this in the Cosmere. The Push and Pull. The opposites should be echoing through the magic systems. It is more expressed in Virtuosity than the others but do keep in mind that the Yin Yang sort of thing is there in the Cosmere as well in the general magic system, but more pronounced with Virtuosity, shall we say.

Which seems to imply that the Spirit can't just become "any pair" but it needs to be something with push/pull | yin/yang | complementary opposite pairing.

So, if we look at Allomancy for inspiration we can see that you have direct opposites (Iron/Steel), two-related-aspects (Tin/Pewter), and same-effect-different-route (Brass/Zinc) so there is probably quite a bit of leeway. I could see the sword/scabbard easiest - if just because it is closest to the "light" example in Yumi if you consider the scabbard to be the "off switch" for the sword.

 

[Guest]

To be completely fair @Treamayne, that WOB didn't exist until after we all said that stuff. You're completely correct that it would invalidate some options like dual swords for instance. Sword and scabbard would still fit and I just feel like spear and shield would to. They are two different purposes to make a complete whole, defense and offense.

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, WandererNearby said:

To be completely fair

Funnily enough - I hadn't even noticed the date. just found it when searching for something else. . .

[Frustration he/him]

On 7/26/2023 at 9:38 PM, Elite01 said:

I don’t see why they couldn’t form blades but maybe they would be slightly different.  Still sharp but not cut through souls sharp but could stop a shardblade maybe. 

They would definitely cut through souls, all Shardblades do.

 

Additionally spirits definitely could form Shardblades, they meet all of the requirements, they are highly invested, Sapient entities that can take physical form. I agree that a sheath makes the most sense for what the second form would take, especially considering how Nightblood's sheath functions.

[Leuthie]

On 7/30/2023 at 11:43 AM, Atlas333 said:

This is probably a more accurate way to say it which is why I’m trying to think of other creative uses but all I can think of is replicating other magic systems… 

 

Yeah, it's a slightly rearranged version of Roshar where the Spren already have Physical manifestation and are all associated with a single "ideal". Yoki-hijo are Radiants who can interact with other spirits. I'm guessing even the most skilled normal human can't do it. This makes the set of controls built around yoki-hijos very important...and why building a machine to replace them was the stupidest of stupid ideas.

So I get you. Derivative magic system built specific to the story from the guy who built his career on building magic systems can be disappointing.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Leuthie