Theory: Sunmaker Changed Vorin Theology

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I'm pretty sure the first fake Announcer was originally Kwaan, then Ruin edited it to be called the 'first witness' so it'd fit Sazed better.  Could just as easily be fully Ruin stuff.

 

Here's the quote anyway

"THE HERO OF AGES WON'T be Terris," Tindwyl said, scribbling a note at the bottom of their list.

"We knew that already," Sazed said. "From the logbook."

"Yes," Tindwyl said, "but Alendi's account was only a reference—a thirdhand mention of the effects of a prophecy. I found someone quoting the prophecy itself."

"Truly?" Sazed asked, excited. "Where?"

"The biography of Helenntion," Tindwyl said. "One of the last survivors of the Council of Khlennium."

"Write it for me," Sazed said, scooting his chair a bit closer to hers. He had to blink a few times as she wrote, his head clouding for a moment from fatigue.

Stay alert! he told himself. There isn't much time left. Not much at all. . ..

Tindwyl was doing a little better than he, but her wakefulness was obviously beginning to run out, for she was starting to droop. He'd taken a quick nap during the night, rolled up on her floor, but she had carried on. As far as he could tell, she'd been awake for over a week straight.

There was much talk of the Rabzeen, during those days, Tindwyl wrote. Some said he would come to fight the Conqueror. Others said he was the Conqueror. Helenntion didn't make his thoughts on the matter known to me. The Rabzeen is said to be "He who is not of his people, yet fulfills all of their wishes." If this is the case, then perhaps the Conqueror is the one. He is said to have been of Khlennium.

She stopped there. Sazed frowned, reading the words again. Kwaan's last testimony—the rubbing Sazed had taken at the Conventical of Seran—had proven useful in more than one way. It had provided a key.

It wasn't until years later that I became convinced that he was the Hero of Ages, Kwaan had written. Hero of Ages: the one called Rabzeen in Khlennium, the Anamnesor. . ..

The rubbing was a means of translation—not between languages, but between synonyms. It made sense that there would be other names for the Hero of Ages; a figure so important, so surrounded by lore, would have many titles. Yet, so much had been lost from those days. The Rabzeen and the Anamnesor were both mythological figures vaguely familiar to Sazed—but they were only two among hosts. Until the discovery of the rubbing, there had been no way to connect their names to the Hero of Ages.

Now Tindwyl and he could search their metalminds with open eyes. Perhaps, in the past, Sazed had read this very passage from Helenntion's biography; he had at least skimmed many of the older records, searching for religious references. Yet, he would never have been able to realize that the passage was referring to the Hero of Ages, a figure from Terris lore that the Khlenni people had renamed into their own tongue.

 

I'm not sure that this isn't just entirely Ruin being twisty.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Shardlet]

Recall also however, that Kwaan had a truly remarkable memory outside of his metalminds, yet he flattered himself to think of himself as the announcer.  That is a fairly significant role to overlook for one who has such a storied memory, especially so, when one believes the subject to apply to oneself.  I think 'the announcer' fabrication predated Kwaan, otherwise the change would have set off major alarms for him.  He didn't change his thinking until after the Worldbringers jumped on the bandwagon and he started to notice the prophecies fit Alendi too closely.  Subtle differences clued him in.  This suggests that the addition of the announcer would have been a pie in the face. 

 

Edit:  Sorry Phantom, I failed to accurately respond.  Yes, the announcer was originally identified as Sazed.  Ruin did indeed tweak it to become "the Holy First Witness".  However, Tensoon did call Sazed "the Announcer" and Sazed recognized the original title which peaked his interest in the Kandra.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Shardlet

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Setting up The Announcer long beforehand would be pretty easy prep to do.  If you have guys who you can alter the records of, making sure they're the ones everyone checks with is just common sense.

[Shardlet]

Setting up The Announcer long beforehand would be pretty easy prep to do.  If you have guys who you can alter the records of, making sure they're the ones everyone checks with is just common sense.

 

I agree.  But the important point is that the prophecy of the Hero was not found only in the Terris religion, but was also found in other cultures/religions as well.  Think the Flood.  This story is known to most of us as the story of Noah.  But, many other cultures (other than Judeo/Christian/Muslim) contains legends and stories about a great flood which covered the Earth.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

The thing is, the only word that we have that they're linked is from the highly-suspect charcoal rubbing - Ruin could have easily just added a list of 'oh yeah, destined hero?  totally hero of ages guys'.

[Shardlet]

YES, he could have.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

YES, he could have.

The reason I think it's likely is because Sazed said there was nothing to link them aside from the rubbing.

[DocHoliday]

I love watching how these threads dissolve into and evolve into convoluted ideas.

[duladen]

I love watching how these threads dissolve into and evolve into convoluted ideas.

lol back to the topic!

 

I like this theory a lot, allow me to put some thoughts down...

 

Well, if they had accurate long-term prediction, they probably came from Tanavast. Such long-term predictions are exactly the kind of thing I would destroy, if I were Odium. Odium can probably plan better than Ruin could, so unlike in Mistborn, Odium would plant the seeds carefully with a long-term plan in mind. Discrediting Honor, even while keeping his worship "alive", sounds like a good start.

 

And now, extending the theory of Sunmaker, what if he was working with Odium? Shards seem to work quite nicely with corrupting beliefs and relgions, so I see no reason for Odium to neglect changing Honor's belief systems.

 

I think it's possible that the Sunmaker was working with Odium, but also this could have just been something that Odium figured would happen. Mankind's greatest enemy was themselves. On the other hand, the name Sunmaker just sounds a lot like the nicknames we've seen for the Unmade (or even the Stormfather for that matter...). This could just be because of cultural tendencies, but it's interesting to think about - what if the Sunmaker was one of the Unmade and was furthering the schemes of Odium in preparation for the Everstorm?

 

Regardless of whether the Sunmaker's motivations were totally personal, or specifically part of Odium's plan, I agree with the theory that he had a direct hand in changing the theology.

[The Rooster]

 

I think it's possible that the Sunmaker was working with Odium, but also this could have just been something that Odium figured would happen. Mankind's greatest enemy was themselves. On the other hand, the name Sunmaker just sounds a lot like the nicknames we've seen for the Unmade (or even the Stormfather for that matter...). This could just be because of cultural tendencies, but it's interesting to think about - what if the Sunmaker was one of the Unmade and was furthering the schemes of Odium in preparation for the Everstorm?

 

Regardless of whether the Sunmaker's motivations were totally personal, or specifically part of Odium's plan, I agree with the theory that he had a direct hand in changing the theology.

 

First off, your Necromantic powers are impressive.

 

I think it's still ambiguous as to whether or not the Sunmaker was "good or bad".  It seems like the Hierocracy was bad business for sure (or maybe that's just my prejudices making a religion taking over automatically evil).  From the way he's reference in the text he seems more like one of those people around which the world revolved in their lifetime (Alexander the Great, Napoleon.. etc.).  Could he have been manipulated by Odium, for sure.  Was he working WITH Odium, I don't think Odium shares the power.   Now he could very well be a fallen Herald or a Nameless.  That's totaly potential right there, it would be tough since the Heralds faces are well recorded but who know the full extent of all of their powers?

[duladen]

First off, your Necromantic powers are impressive.

I think it's still ambiguous as to whether or not the Sunmaker was "good or bad". It seems like the Hierocracy was bad business for sure (or maybe that's just my prejudices making a religion taking over automatically evil). From the way he's reference in the text he seems more like one of those people around which the world revolved in their lifetime (Alexander the Great, Napoleon.. etc.). Could he have been manipulated by Odium, for sure. Was he working WITH Odium, I don't think Odium shares the power. Now he could very well be a fallen Herald or a Nameless. That's totaly potential right there, it would be tough since the Heralds faces are well recorded but who know the full extent of all of their powers?

Thank you! I've been practicing by creating zombies and hiding amongst the other walking dead in San Francisco's Tenderloin...

I agree that the Sunmaker probably wasn't working directly with Odium. (Was Odium even in the Roshar system at the time or was he on Sel?) However, since Rayse is supposed to be so cunning perhaps it was part of his plan, executed by one of his highest ranking minions. Not really any evidence for it, but I like it.

[Aoibheann]

I hadn't thought about how long Odium has been working on Roshar.  I would guess he (Odium) has been there since at least the last desolation.  I had assumed Odium was behind the torment of Heralds between desolations.  Perhaps he took a break to visit Sel, contributing to the longer time between desolations. 

 

Assuming the Thrill is from Odium, I'm thinking that the Thrill could certainly influence Sunmaker to change theology in a way that allowed/encouraged him toward more wars.  It may not be direct, but that would certainly be influence.  

 

While Brandon has used this type of tactic at other places in the Cosmere, I don't think it would be cheap to use it again.  It just shows that Shards are influential in the worlds they touch.  

[duladen]

I hadn't thought about how long Odium has been working on Roshar.  I would guess he (Odium) has been there since at least the last desolation.  I had assumed Odium was behind the torment of Heralds between desolations.  Perhaps he took a break to visit Sel, contributing to the longer time between desolations. 

 

Assuming the Thrill is from Odium, I'm thinking that the Thrill could certainly influence Sunmaker to change theology in a way that allowed/encouraged him toward more wars.  It may not be direct, but that would certainly be influence.  

 

While Brandon has used this type of tactic at other places in the Cosmere, I don't think it would be cheap to use it again.  It just shows that Shards are influential in the worlds they touch.  

 

I also assumed that Odium was responsible for torturing the Heralds in Damnation between desolations. However, now that I think about it, I think he must have left after the breaking of the Oathpact, shattered the Shards on Sel, and then came back for Honor. Honor pointing to the stars winking out in Dalinar's vision leads me to this timeline:

 

 

"This isn't just about you either," the figure said, raising his hand into the air. A light winked out in the sky, one that Dalinar hadn't realized was there. Then another winked out as well. The sun seemed to be growing dimmer.

"It's about all of them," the figure said. "I should have realized he'd come for me."

 

Furthermore, this death cry leads me to think that the Knights Radiant were around when Honor was shattered by Odium:

 

 

 

Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?

-Collected on the second day of Kakash, year 1171, five seconds before death. Subject was a lighteyes woman in her third decade

 

So, if Odium came back before the Recreance, then he should have been around for the Hierocracy.

 

Lastly, I like the bit about Odium's influence through the Thrill. I think it's a much better explanation for why the Sunmaker would make changes to Vorinism. Not because he's a direct agent of Odium. Hats off to you.

[Kier]

I don't think he so much as changed Theology. To me its much more akin to the Enlightment movements of the late 1400's and early 1500's. When the Catholic Church was removed from faciliating all the knowledge about God to the bible being translated to english and the expanded theological knowldege. I don't think the theology or specific beliefes changed. 

 

To me we can see that as far back as the KR, (by way of the skyfall vision.) that Alethela, and by extention Alethkar had the deep rooted seed of one nation to learn and know war so others dont. That is a core of Alethi Culture, and not necessarily Vorin Religion. 

 

Now, With Alethkar being the largest Vorin Kingdom, and the one that happend to overthrow the Hierocracy, its easy to see how the overall Culture of Alethkar influenced the Vorin Theology, but I dont think it, or the Sunmaker specifically changed the Theology or its tenents, just set up the system that war, and fighting was the "Highest Calling."

 

 

[hoser]

I ...

Now, With Alethkar being the largest Vorin Kingdom, and the one that happend to overthrow the Hierocracy, its easy to see how the overall Culture of Alethkar influenced the Vorin Theology, but I dont think it, or the Sunmaker specifically changed the Theology or its tenents, just set up the system that war, and fighting was the "Highest Calling."

The following quote from Dalinar leads me to believe that theology changed significantly between the Recreance and the time of Dalinar, although I don't know when or how. 

 

Thinking about the Way of Kings, we have the following snippet at the end of chapter 15.  

In other places, it outright said that lighteyes were beneath darkeyes.  That contradicted Vorin teachings.

Supporting this, in chapter 18, he talks about the Vorin Calling and Glory.

The better your blood as a lighteyes, the more innate Glory you had already.

[Aoibheann]

@Hoser - 

 

You know, I'm reminded of this conversation between Kal and Sigzil (page 576, Kindle):

 

"...  The men say that you're secretly a lighteyes of very high rank."

"What?  But my eyes are dark brown!"

"Pardon me," Sigzil said.  "I didn't speak the right word - you don't have the right word in your language.  To you, a lighteyes is the same as a leader.  In other kingdoms, though, other things make a man a... curse this Alethi language.  A man of high birth.  A brightlord, only without the eyes.  Anyway, the men think you must have been raised outside of Alethkar. As a leader."

 add that to your quote above:

 

 

Thinking about the Way of Kings, we have the following snippet at the end of chapter 15.  

In other places, it outright said that lighteyes were beneath darkeyes.  That contradicted Vorin teachings.

 

 

We could end up with a translation along the lines of:  "In other places, it outright said that Lords and Kings were to serve the populace."

 

Perhaps it only contradicts Vorin teachings due to lingual shift?

[hoser]

 

@Hoser - 

We could end up with a translation along the lines of:  "In other places, it outright said that Lords and Kings were to serve the populace."

 

Perhaps it only contradicts Vorin teachings due to lingual shift?

Not sure what you mean by lingual shift.  If you are suggesting that it is only a semantic difference, I will say that it seems quite the opposite, being a significant difference in meaning.  

 

I encourage you to read the section if you have any doubt.  In the in-world Way of Kings, Nohadon talks about carrying a rock for a common laborer.  The second quote I offered about lighteyed blood conveying innate Glory could not be more opposite. 

 

Whether the Vorin church, the Sunmaker and the ardents accomplished the change in meaning using semantics or not, the meanings (based on Dalinar's POV as related in the snippets we see) have been reversed.  

 

At Feverstone Keep, Dalinar was surprised to see darkeyed officers.  Kaladin was taught that the Heralds had chosen lighteyes to rule and Dalinar feels constrained to limit his rank based on eye coloring.  Dalinar was taught that blood and light eyes conveyed innate Glory.  This seems like a significant shift in meaning, not semantics. 

[Aoibheann]

That's exactly what I mean. The end result is exactly opposite! Not because the theology was directly changed, but because the language changed/shifted and the words for Lords evolved into lighteyes.

My translation above isn't possible due to the current language, thus Dalinar's interpretation in your quote.

Sorry for the abbreviated response. I'm on my phone.

[hoser]

I must be misunderstanding again, because I don't get it at all.

That's exactly what I mean. The end result is exactly opposite! Not because the theology was directly changed, but because the language changed/shifted and the words for Lords evolved into lighteyes.

My translation above isn't possible due to the current language, thus Dalinar's interpretation in your quote.

Sorry for the abbreviated response. I'm on my phone.

"Lord" evolving in to "lighteyes" would have Vorinism encouraging humility on lighteyes and judgments based on honorable behavior.  Instead, in Dalinar's times Vorinism glorifies lighteyes based on absurd superficial traits like ancestry and eye color, while excusing venal behavior.   Changing the naming of individual traits could not achieve a change like that.  I'm sure Nohadon would have scoffed at the idea of inherited Glory.   The entire system has been turned inside out and I don't see how you get there with shifting of word meanings. 

 

In the evolution of Vorin theology, differences have become accentuated: men are forced into different roles from women, a rigid class system based on inheritance has been established, betrayal has become honor, spiritual impulses are relegated to a subservient class.  I find it hard to consider that this could happen without intention, specifically odious intention.  This does not seem like semantic evolution at all. 

[Aoibheann]

I was not explicit in my post above. Apologies for any frustrations this may have caused.

1. I'm not arguing against the basic theory. I believe it, I proposed it.

2. Nohadon would be horrified to see the current state of Vorin teachings.

3. Language has changed. It is impossible to say Lord in modern Alethi without saying lighteyes.

4. Language impacts understandings of any pre-Recreance and pre-Hierocracy writings. Any translation is impacted especially any which touch on the ideas of nobility. (have you seen discussions of how the original writers meant the words of the Bible? It's hard to know what to think.)

5. People have a tendency to believe stories, reports & writings which confirm their previously held beliefs (confirmation bias).

6. Dalinar mentions WoK is not held in high esteem, precisely because it says things like "lighteyes are beneath darkeyes".

7. Modern Alethi translators can't get the meaning "Lords and Kings were to serve the populace." because those words don't exist therefore WoK is dismissed as crazy-talk.

8. This continues with other writings, contributing to the change/decline in Vorinism.

Again, I'm sorry for any confusion.

I was really excited by the connection between Sigzil's inability to say Lord and Dalinar's understanding of the WoK quote.