Knightharrt Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 First Post, if I didn't tag anything correctly, I apologize. I did try, I think. Anyway, I'm midway through relistening to Oathbringer and heard something that probably doesn't tie into The Lost Metal but figured I'd ask because I couldn't find anything about it via Google search. In Oathbringer, Chapter 107, The First Step: Dalinar is discussing battle strategies with the leaders of the other kingdoms of Roshar and this quote just caught my attention. Spoiler "Tashikk has a Navy doesn't it? Staffed and supplemented by Azish troops." The generals conferred in their own language, finally one spoke through an interpreter. "The 13th Battalion, Red & Gold, has men who do a rotation on ships and patrol the grand waterway." Is it possible that there is relationship to army that Marasi sees in The Lost Metal? Spoiler I don't have the exact quote, but I know most are familiar with "The army of Gold & Red" that Marasi sees through perpendicularity as well as Miles Hundred-Lives rantings about them. I realize the colors are reversed, and assume that it is intentional, but I just heard it and couldn't ignore it so I have to ask. I have a strong feeling that Spoiler Stormlight 5 is going to reveal that Autonomy has been active on Roshar. Red is her color and it is kind of a big color throughout Stormlight, more so than Gold seems to be. I assume it will be in a smaller capacity than what my gut is telling me as I doubt Brandon wants to undercut Odium, but he did introduce Autonomy, albeit in another series, prior to the release of Stormlight 5 and I can't imagine that was 100% unintentional. In TLM, we also found out that she was messing around on Scadirel prior to the events of Era 1. She's a sneaky snake, is what I'm getting at. I see her as a Puppet Master or the Man Behind the Curtain, investing in planets and setting plans in motion w/ Odium being the Enforcer or Executioner. Scalpel and Hammer. I know I'm probably grasping at straws, but I've kind of been doing a lot of research lately and itching to post something. Also, how much free range do I have to spit ball random theories? Should I create a new post for each one or can I just pop off in the replies section to this post? Gracias 4
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Knightharrt said: First Post, if I didn't tag anything correctly, I apologize. I did try, I think. Welcome to the Shard! The tags are fine Quote Anyway, I'm midway through relistening to Oathbringer and heard something that probably doesn't tie into The Lost Metal but figured I'd ask because I couldn't find anything about it via Google search. In Oathbringer, Chapter 107, The First Step: Dalinar is discussing battle strategies with the leaders of the other kingdoms of Roshar and this quote just caught my attention. Hide contents "Tashikk has a Navy doesn't it? Staffed and supplemented by Azish troops." The generals conferred in their own language, finally one spoke through an interpreter. "The 13th Battalion, Red & Gold, has men who do a rotation on ships and patrol the grand waterway." Is it possible that there is relationship to army that Marasi sees in The Lost Metal? Hide contents I don't have the exact quote, but I know most are familiar with "The army of Gold & Red" that Marasi sees through perpendicularity as well as Miles Hundred-Lives rantings about them. I realize the colors are reversed, and assume that it is intentional, but I just heard it and couldn't ignore it so I have to ask. I have a strong feeling that Hide contents Stormlight 5 is going to reveal that Autonomy has been active on Roshar. Red is her color and it is kind of a big color throughout Stormlight, more so than Gold seems to be. I assume it will be in a smaller capacity than what my gut is telling me as I doubt Brandon wants to undercut Odium, but he did introduce Autonomy, albeit in another series, prior to the release of Stormlight 5 and I can't imagine that was 100% unintentional. In TLM, we also found out that she was messing around on Scadirel prior to the events of Era 1. She's a sneaky snake, is what I'm getting at. I see her as a Puppet Master or the Man Behind the Curtain, investing in planets and setting plans in motion w/ Odium being the Enforcer or Executioner. Scalpel and Hammer. I know I'm probably grasping at straws, but I've kind of been doing a lot of research lately and itching to post something. That's a good connection, I'd never noticed it before. Anything is possible, though I will say that the motif of red and gold is a rather common one, and it appears all over the Cosmere. I'd always assumed the army Autonomy had camped in the Cognitive Realm might be Awakened Constructs, like (Tress of the Emerald Sea Spoilers): Spoiler the army of "metal men" Riina employs on Lumar. I think the red and gold thing is mostly a coincidence, but again, anything is possible. And Autonomy's color isn't red, that's the color for Corrupted Investiture. You see it with Odium a lot, the Fused have red eyes and such, because he came and Invested in Roshar after Honor and Cultivation, so he co-opted some of their things (Spren being one of them) to try and even out the playing field. Notice that the Bavadinium spikes that the Set use have spots of red rust on them, which is almost certainly the Hemalurgic Charge manifesting Corruption on the Autonomous Investiture in the spike. But you're onto something about Autonomy being involved with Roshar. There are some WoBs on this: Quote Questioner We have some idea that Autonomy is fiddling around in Roshar and in Scadrial. Brandon Sanderson And other places. Questioner Considering her involvement with the Ghostbloods: has she directly interacted with Kelsier/Thaidakar? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) Quote Moridin997 (paraphrased) Did Bavadin in any way help Odium splinter Dominion and Devotion? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Uhh... Moridin997 (paraphrased) (sensing an incoming RAFO): In any way... Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Uhh... Yes... Yes, you could say that... Lisbon signing (Nov. 7, 2016) Quote Double Rayse (Odium) was very methodical with the order in which he went after other Shards. Hypothetically if he'd visited the Rosharan system all those years ago but managed to avoid being trapped and was able to continue his mission right away, which of the known Shards would've been next up on Rayse's hit list? Brandon Sanderson He expected Ruin to implode. So he might have gone for Autonomy, double crossing them. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) And Autonomy has certainly helped Odium, enough so that if he attacked her it would be considered "Double Crossing". The relationship between them may not be as cut and dry as a Scalpel and Hammer type situation, but their plans do seem to overlap a little, or at least run in the same direction. Quote Also, how much free range do I have to spit ball random theories? Should I create a new post for each one or can I just pop off in the replies section to this post? Gracias You can make as many new threads as you want, the replies on this post are for discussing it and any offshoot theories that go along with this, but there are no strict rules. You could keep posting your theories in the replies of this one if you really wanted to, but it's generally better to make new threads. Edited July 13, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper 3
alder24 Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 5 hours ago, Knightharrt said: First Post, if I didn't tag anything correctly, I apologize. I did try, I think. Welcome to the Shard 5 hours ago, Knightharrt said: In Oathbringer, Chapter 107, The First Step: Dalinar is discussing battle strategies with the leaders of the other kingdoms of Roshar and this quote just caught my attention. Hide contents "Tashikk has a Navy doesn't it? Staffed and supplemented by Azish troops." The generals conferred in their own language, finally one spoke through an interpreter. "The 13th Battalion, Red & Gold, has men who do a rotation on ships and patrol the grand waterway." Is it possible that there is relationship to army that Marasi sees in The Lost Metal? Good catch. However they have only 10 years to get modern automatic weapons and futuristic armor, I think this is very unlikely to happen. Plus they are from Roshar, not Taldain, the man of gold and red were Autonomy's army for a long time, unleashed on multiple planets before. They can't be from Roshar. Have you read Tress of the Emerald See? Spoilers: Spoiler In Tress the Sorceress had an army of golden Awakened Robots - I think it's very likely that Autonomy's army is made in the same way, using corrupted Breaths to create her Awakened army of metal robots with modern rifles. 5 hours ago, Knightharrt said: Red is her color and it is kind of a big color throughout Stormlight No. Red is the color of corrupted investiture, not Autonomy. Gold and red are colors associated with Odium on Roshar Spoiler FirstSelector Does red in cosmere signify one Shard co-opting or corrupting another Shard's magic? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017) Spoiler Questioner So, we know in Mistborn there is this running... you can say, motif about Ruin being associated with the color black and Preservation with the color white, we see a lot of very subtle and a lot of very unsubtle... Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yes. Questioner Is such a motif present in any other books? I think I see it in Stormlight. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, in Stormlight you can see it. So, Ruin is a red-gold... not Ruin, Odium. Odium is a red-gold. Honor is a blue-white and Cultivation is green, obviously. So, those motifs stay, when you... when you see a red or a gold, it's a reddish gold sort of thing, either of those colors, it's going to be Odium. Questioner Even when we something we might suspect to be outside influence in other worlds? Brandon Sanderson Not necessarily, because red can also mean corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere. So, I would call Odium's real color gold, because you're going to see red when Odium is corrupting other things, so... Questioner It's not necessarily on Roshar. Brandon Sanderson It's not necessarily Odium. So, you're asking for the invading force on Mistborn, it doesn't necessarily mean Odium because it's red. So red just kind of means corruption. I've talked about that before, so. Not necessarily, not definitive, yeah. Footnote: When Sanderson said "you're asking about the invading force on Mistborn", the questioner made a guilty "caught red-handed" shrug. ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019) 5 hours ago, Knightharrt said: I see her as a Puppet Master or the Man Behind the Curtain, investing in planets and setting plans in motion w/ Odium being the Enforcer or Executioner. Scalpel and Hammer. The problem with that is that Odium wants to be the only god in Cosmere. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Odium wants to be the only Shard. Odium could pick up other Shards if he wants to, but, he doesn't want to. His Shard is a good match for his personality and he doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard. Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011) 5 hours ago, Knightharrt said: Also, how much free range do I have to spit ball random theories? Should I create a new post for each one or can I just pop off in the replies section to this post? You can create a new thread for every theory or just one big post for all of them. Whatever you like more. You have all freedom you need in this case 1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Spoiler I'd always assumed the army Autonomy had camped in the Cognitive Realm might be Awakened Constructs, like the army of "metal men" Riina employs on Lumar. If you don't know if the person has read this book, it's better to put it in a spoiler box 3
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, alder24 said: Hide contents In Tress the Sorceress had an army of golden Awakened Robots - I think it's very likely that Autonomy's army is made in the same way, using corrupted Breaths to create her Awakened army of metal robots with modern rifles. They aren't gold. I originally thought they were, but I checked it to be sure and they're described as "The colour of burnished brass". They're similar colors in my opinion, but just thought I should point it out 2
alder24 Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 10 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Spoiler They aren't gold. I originally thought they were, but I checked it to be sure and they're described as "The colour of burnished brass". They're similar colors in my opinion, but just thought I should point it out Tress: Spoiler Yes, they for sure aren't made out of literal gold, but their color is similar enough to call them "golden". 2
Firesong she/her Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 Another implication of Autonomy being on Roshar (besides Brandon basically confirming it in one of the linked WoBs) is that one of the letters if from Patji and talks about her expansion (not saying Roshar is Obrodai, just that it was talking about her MO of expansion), and that Harmony talked about Autonomy encroaching on Scadrial as well. We also have Taldain sand play a prominent role. Autonomy has just, been discussed a lot in Stormlight. We also are like, 99% sure that the Expanse of the Broken Sky is Taldain, and we already have figures from Scadrial (Mists), Sel (Densities), and Nalthis (Vibrance) interfering with Roshar. 1
Knightharrt Posted July 14, 2023 Author Posted July 14, 2023 16 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: And Autonomy's color isn't red, that's the color for Corrupted Investiture. You see it with Odium a lot, the Fused have red eyes and such, because he came and Invested in Roshar after Honor and Cultivation, so he co-opted some of their things (Spren being one of them) to try and even out the playing field. Notice that the Bavadinium spikes that the Set use have spots of red rust on them, which is almost certainly the Hemalurgic Charge manifesting Corruption on the Autonomous Investiture in the spike. Well that changes my opinion of The Unmade quite a bit. I read the title of a Reddit post stating that Autonomy's color was red and just took it as a fact without digging deeper. I just went to the post to see if the OP had any evidence behind their claim, but they were disproven using one of the same WoBs that alder24 posted. I'll repost it just in case anyone else missed it. Thank you both. Spoiler Questioner So, we know in Mistborn there is this running... you can say, motif about Ruin being associated with the color black and Preservation with the color white, we see a lot of very subtle and a lot of very unsubtle... Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yes. Questioner Is such a motif present in any other books? I think I see it in Stormlight. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, in Stormlight you can see it. So, Ruin is a red-gold... not Ruin, Odium. Odium is a red-gold. Honor is a blue-white and Cultivation is green, obviously. So, those motifs stay, when you... when you see a red or a gold, it's a reddish gold sort of thing, either of those colors, it's going to be Odium. Questioner Even when we something we might suspect to be outside influence in other worlds? Brandon Sanderson Not necessarily, because red can also mean corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere. So, I would call Odium's real color gold, because you're going to see red when Odium is corrupting other things, so... Questioner It's not necessarily on Roshar. Brandon Sanderson It's not necessarily Odium. So, you're asking for the invading force on Mistborn, it doesn't necessarily mean Odium because it's red. So red just kind of means corruption. I've talked about that before, so. Not necessarily, not definitive, yeah. Footnote: When Sanderson said "you're asking about the invading force on Mistborn", the questioner made a guilty "caught red-handed" shrug. ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019) 15 hours ago, alder24 said: Good catch. However they have only 10 years to get modern automatic weapons and futuristic armor, I think this is very unlikely to happen. Plus they are from Roshar, not Taldain, the man of gold and red were Autonomy's army for a long time, unleashed on multiple planets before. They can't be from Roshar. Are you saying that Mistborn Era 2 takes place 10 years after Stormlight 5? I misunderstood, I thought it took place between 5 and 6 but that we didn't know how big the gap between 5 and 6 was so it was a little more vague of the time shift. 15 hours ago, alder24 said: Have you read Tress of the Emerald See? Spoilers: Yes, but I didn't make the connection to Mistborn that you referenced. Never really crossed my mind. I was pretty interested in that "tower" though. 15 hours ago, alder24 said: The problem with that is that Odium wants to be the only god in Cosmere. My hammer and scalpel reference my not have been the best analogy. I'm aware that he wants to be the only God but I don't know if Autonomy is aware of that. I mean, I assume she has a plan for him too, but she seems more willing to work with others based on her use of Avatars and may be treating him as almost an Avatar while he's useful to her. I don't know if I completely understand how the Shards kill one another, but from how I understand it, Odium doesn't invest/sliver himself or at least limits himself as much as he can, which gives him the upperhand when going toe to toe with other shards who do sliver themselves. My thinking is that Autonomy invests herself in the planets causing the shards of the planet to invest themselves further than they would have otherwise in effort to fend her off. After they've invested themselves to a level that makes the vulnerable to an essentially fully powered Shard, Odium comes in and drops the hammer. Maybe more a hammer and anvil tactic than hammer and scalpel. 9 hours ago, Firesong said: We also have Taldain sand play a prominent role. Excellent point, forgot about that. FMoash 9 hours ago, Firesong said: We also are like, 99% sure that the Expanse of the Broken Sky is Taldain, and we already have figures from Scadrial (Mists), Sel (Densities), and Nalthis (Vibrance) interfering with Roshar. Could you explain this further? I haven't read much about this yet and am not making the connections on my own. Thanks all, I appreciate the feedback. 1
Firesong she/her Posted July 14, 2023 Posted July 14, 2023 4 minutes ago, Knightharrt said: Well that changes my opinion of The Unmade quite a bit. I read the title of a Reddit post stating that Autonomy's color was red and just took it as a fact without digging deeper. I just went to the post to see if the OP had any evidence behind their claim, but they were disproven using one of the same WoBs that alder24 posted. I'll repost it just in case anyone else missed it. Thank you both. Hide contents Questioner So, we know in Mistborn there is this running... you can say, motif about Ruin being associated with the color black and Preservation with the color white, we see a lot of very subtle and a lot of very unsubtle... Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yes. Questioner Is such a motif present in any other books? I think I see it in Stormlight. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, in Stormlight you can see it. So, Ruin is a red-gold... not Ruin, Odium. Odium is a red-gold. Honor is a blue-white and Cultivation is green, obviously. So, those motifs stay, when you... when you see a red or a gold, it's a reddish gold sort of thing, either of those colors, it's going to be Odium. Questioner Even when we something we might suspect to be outside influence in other worlds? Brandon Sanderson Not necessarily, because red can also mean corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere. So, I would call Odium's real color gold, because you're going to see red when Odium is corrupting other things, so... Questioner It's not necessarily on Roshar. Brandon Sanderson It's not necessarily Odium. So, you're asking for the invading force on Mistborn, it doesn't necessarily mean Odium because it's red. So red just kind of means corruption. I've talked about that before, so. Not necessarily, not definitive, yeah. Footnote: When Sanderson said "you're asking about the invading force on Mistborn", the questioner made a guilty "caught red-handed" shrug. ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019) Are you saying that Mistborn Era 2 takes place 10 years after Stormlight 5? I misunderstood, I thought it took place between 5 and 6 but that we didn't know how big the gap between 5 and 6 was so it was a little more vague of the time shift. Yes, but I didn't make the connection to Mistborn that you referenced. Never really crossed my mind. I was pretty interested in that "tower" though. My hammer and scalpel reference my not have been the best analogy. I'm aware that he wants to be the only God but I don't know if Autonomy is aware of that. I mean, I assume she has a plan for him too, but she seems more willing to work with others based on her use of Avatars and may be treating him as almost an Avatar while he's useful to her. I don't know if I completely understand how the Shards kill one another, but from how I understand it, Odium doesn't invest/sliver himself or at least limits himself as much as he can, which gives him the upperhand when going toe to toe with other shards who do sliver themselves. My thinking is that Autonomy invests herself in the planets causing the shards of the planet to invest themselves further than they would have otherwise in effort to fend her off. After they've invested themselves to a level that makes the vulnerable to an essentially fully powered Shard, Odium comes in and drops the hammer. Maybe more a hammer and anvil tactic than hammer and scalpel. Excellent point, forgot about that. FMoash Could you explain this further? I haven't read much about this yet and am not making the connections on my own. Thanks all, I appreciate the feedback. The Expanses on the Shadesmar map are all meant to be other planets (or, well, their Subastrals to be exact) Expanse of the Vapors is Scadrial (100% confirmed) Expanse of the Densities is Sel (100% confimred) Expanse of Vibrance is Nalthis (not confirmed, but pretty obvious) Expanse of the Broken Sky being Taldain comes from when you put the Shadesmar map on the Cosmere map, and rotate it so they line up, Broken Sky lines up with Taldain. You can also observe that all the planets in the expanses are closely involved with Roshar and the plot, and the only other planet besides Scadrial, Sel, and Nalthis that is very relevant, Taldain, with its sand and all the talk of Autonomy in the books. Also, I do like your theory of how Autonomy and Odium work together. As we know they worked together enough to allow Odium to double-cross them. And that explanation of how does make sense. I like it. 2
Knightharrt Posted July 14, 2023 Author Posted July 14, 2023 33 minutes ago, Firesong said: The Expanses on the Shadesmar map are all meant to be other planets (or, well, their Subastrals to be exact) Expanse of the Vapors is Scadrial (100% confirmed) Expanse of the Densities is Sel (100% confimred) Expanse of Vibrance is Nalthis (not confirmed, but pretty obvious) Expanse of the Broken Sky being Taldain comes from when you put the Shadesmar map on the Cosmere map, and rotate it so they line up, Broken Sky lines up with Taldain. You can also observe that all the planets in the expanses are closely involved with Roshar and the plot, and the only other planet besides Scadrial, Sel, and Nalthis that is very relevant, Taldain, with its sand and all the talk of Autonomy in the books. Cool, I'll check this out. I was looking at some map stuff the other night and wasn't sure what those were so I just moved on. Something that seemed interesting to me when looking at the Map of Roshar was that Roshar kind of looks like an Dragon lying on it's side, or the body of a dead dragon. Maybe just part of the neck and head with the rest of the body being under the ocean. I had read previously that the design of Roshar has something based on some sort of math called a "Julia Set" but I don't know what that is. I kind of see a Dragon though. 41 minutes ago, Firesong said: Also, I do like your theory of how Autonomy and Odium work together. As we know they worked together enough to allow Odium to double-cross them. And that explanation of how does make sense. I like it. Gracias. I imagine their relationship being like two criminals that are constantly looking over their shoulder at one another waiting to be double to come. Both of them being stuck in a constant state of paranoia. I'm curious how they'll get along after what happened in WoR w/ Odium. Now that I think about it, that gives me a question about WoR Spoiler I know that Cultivation basically guided Taravangian to becoming Odium. Has there been any evidence that she had outside help from Autonomy? I'm guessing not, but curious if maybe Autonomy double crossed him before he could double cross her. The ol' double-double cross. 1
Treamayne Posted July 14, 2023 Posted July 14, 2023 7 hours ago, Knightharrt said: I had read previously that the design of Roshar has something based on some sort of math called a "Julia Set" but I don't know what that is. Im mathematics, it's a type of fractal in complex dynamics. The Julia Set is a graphically described function. The linked Wikipedia article has a good animated example of a Polynomial iterated with the Julia Set. More specifically, Bendon chose this as the influence because it can look inspired by a highstorm. (Map) 7 hours ago, Knightharrt said: Cool, I'll check this out. I was looking at some map stuff the other night and wasn't sure what those were so I just moved on. Shadesmar Map is here. You can see the "paths" to other worlds labelled for which direction to travel from Roshar's Shadesmar along the edges of the map. If you have read Mistborn:Secret History, then you have seen what moving between different planet's Shadesmars can be like.
alder24 Posted July 14, 2023 Posted July 14, 2023 8 hours ago, Knightharrt said: Are you saying that Mistborn Era 2 takes place 10 years after Stormlight 5? I misunderstood, I thought it took place between 5 and 6 but that we didn't know how big the gap between 5 and 6 was so it was a little more vague of the time shift. Era 2 takes place in between SA 5 and SA 6, but there is around 10 years of break between those two, and at least 6 years between AoL and TLM - so I just round it up to around 10 years after SA 5. Spoiler Questioner So the next Wax and Wayne, is that after the fifth Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson All the Wax and Wayne ones chronologically take place in the ten year gap between Stormlight 5 and 6. FanX 2021 (Sept. 16, 2021) 8 hours ago, Knightharrt said: My hammer and scalpel reference my not have been the best analogy. I'm aware that he wants to be the only God but I don't know if Autonomy is aware of that. I'm pretty sure she knows it - Harmony realized it very fast, RoW letter: Quote I do not share their attitude. If you can, as you supposed, maintain Odium’s prison for now, it would give us necessary time to plan. This is a threat beyond the capacity of one Shard to face. Unfortunately, as proven by my own situation, the combination of Shards is not always a path to greater power. We must assume that Odium has realized this, and is seeking a singular, terrible goal: the destruction - and somehow Splintering or otherwise making impotent - of all the Shards other than him. To combine powers would change and distort who Odium is. So instead of absorbing others, he destroys them. Since we are all essentially infinite, he needs no more power. Destroying and Splintering the other Shards would leave Odium as the sole god, unchanged and uncorrupted by other influences. But also it looks like one of Autonomy's Avatar, Patji, admire Odium's actions, Autonomy might have similar goals to Odium's and that's why they worked together in the past. OB 2nd letter: Quote Rayse is contained, and we care not for his prison. Indeed, we admire his initiative. Perhaps if you had approached the correct one of us with your plea, it would have found favorable audience. 8 hours ago, Knightharrt said: I mean, I assume she has a plan for him too, but she seems more willing to work with others based on her use of Avatars and may be treating him as almost an Avatar while he's useful to her. No. Avatars are different, Avatars are hers, Avatars are made out of Autonomy's power and are still part of Shard's power. Spoiler Alex M What's the difference between avatar and Splinter? Brandon Sanderson These are all very weird terms that I'm just using. *mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing. An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do. Brandon Sanderson *realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies* A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) 8 hours ago, Knightharrt said: I don't know if I completely understand how the Shards kill one another, but from how I understand it, Odium doesn't invest/sliver himself or at least limits himself as much as he can, which gives him the upperhand when going toe to toe with other shards who do sliver themselves. That's part of it. Odium also argued they had broken the pact made by Shards in early days (to not settle together) as a justification for his action (it wasn't as binding as an oath). Spoiler Nameless36 All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that. Brandon Sanderson So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual Oath. And they did not get one. Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019) Spoiler Paladin Brewer Out of all the Shards, why does Odium go for Devotion and Dominion? Brandon Sanderson He targets people with two kinds of ideas. Number one, he can argue they're breaking the rules they set out. And two, people he thinks are a good match for him, or a challenge, or a danger. Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017) Spoiler Khyrindor Odium seems to have a bad track record when it comes to killing Shards. He was wounded versus Ambition, and he's trapped on Roshar. Yet, he's credited in killing Devotion and Dominion. My question is: was Autonomy significantly involved and would Odium have been able to do it on his own and still be okay to-- Brandon Sanderson RAFO. It is dangerous to attack a Shard with one Shard. Let's say that. And a wise Shard would try to avoid that confrontation unless there are specific reasons they think they would have an advantage. Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018) Spoiler Questioner It’s really heavily implied in the first Oathbringer letter that the Shards made a pact not to settle near each other. Given that a full half of the Shards ended up doing that, what is the cost for them breaking that oath? You implied earlier that there’s always a cost for Hoid, for taking his protections. Brandon Sanderson The wording of those things allows them to agree together, but it also gives them a little bit of power over one another, and you’ve seen the side effects of that on the planets where it’s happened. It has not gone well for any of them, if you kind of run the numbers on that. But the wording of it allows two, later on, to say, "Okay, we both agree." (If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.) This should imply to you that Odium did get permission, as well. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) 8 hours ago, Knightharrt said: My thinking is that Autonomy invests herself in the planets causing the shards of the planet to invest themselves further than they would have otherwise in effort to fend her off. After they've invested themselves to a level that makes the vulnerable to an essentially fully powered Shard, Odium comes in and drops the hammer. Maybe more a hammer and anvil tactic than hammer and scalpel. It's a good theory, but it's a bit different - Autonomy doesn't really invest herself in other planets (she can't that much, she is binded to Taldain), she gets aware of her investiture being in another system, and uses it to create Avatars. Shards' investiture is all around Cosmere, their mind just isn't vast enough to be aware of it. Spoiler Overlord Jebus Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard? Brandon Sanderson Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. Overlord Jebus Are they aware of that Investiture? Brandon Sanderson That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things. Overlord Jebus So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Spoiler [Huge WoB cut to make it shorter, if you want read the whole WoB by clicking link below] Brandon Sanderson [...] We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have. Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists. You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring. Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time. [...] General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018) 7 hours ago, Knightharrt said: Something that seemed interesting to me when looking at the Map of Roshar was that Roshar kind of looks like an Dragon lying on it's side, or the body of a dead dragon. Maybe just part of the neck and head with the rest of the body being under the ocean. I had read previously that the design of Roshar has something based on some sort of math called a "Julia Set" but I don't know what that is. I kind of see a Dragon though. Welcome to the Greatshell Roshar society, a place for truth seekers who believes Roshar is a giant Greatshell! joke 8 hours ago, Knightharrt said: I'm curious how they'll get along after what happened in WoR w/ Odium. It's going to be answered soonish: Spoiler Hessi's Ward What does Taravangian, as the Vessel of Odium, think of Autonomy? Brandon Sanderson I will RAFO this, because it's going to be relevant. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) 8 hours ago, Knightharrt said: I know that Cultivation basically guided Taravangian to becoming Odium. Has there been any evidence that she had outside help from Autonomy? I'm guessing not, but curious if maybe Autonomy double crossed him before he could double cross her. The ol' double-double cross. Nothing on that. 9 hours ago, Firesong said: Expanse of the Broken Sky being Taldain comes from when you put the Shadesmar map on the Cosmere map, and rotate it so they line up, Broken Sky lines up with Taldain. Oh wow, that's smart. I've never thought of it. Nice one. It works, I had to try. Now I wonder if the star chart is a constellation map visible from Yolen.
Firesong she/her Posted July 14, 2023 Posted July 14, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Treamayne said: Im mathematics, it's a type of fractal in complex dynamics. The Julia Set is a graphically described function. The linked Wikipedia article has a good animated example of a Polynomial iterated with the Julia Set. More specifically, Bendon chose this as the influence because it can look inspired by a highstorm. (Map) Shadesmar Map is here. You can see the "paths" to other worlds labelled for which direction to travel from Roshar's Shadesmar along the edges of the map. If you have read Mistborn:Secret History, then you have seen what moving between different planet's Shadesmars can be like. He actually said it was to make the planet look directly created and more artificial, but with an underlying pattern. So he did a 2-D cross-section of a 4D Julia Set. The Lost Metal also showed what it looks like. But we haven't ever seen what it truly looks like in-between. Secret History showed more like, the edge of the subastral, rather than the true in-between space. Quote Now I wonder if the star chart is a constellation map visible from Yolen. No, it is basically confirmed it isn't, as Yolen has been described as hidden by Silverlight people, and we know that the map is present in Silverlight. So I doubt that it is from Yolen. And on the time between SA5 and SA6, Brandon kinda can't decide. He has been swapping between 10 and 15 a lot, says it would be one of the two. Edited July 14, 2023 by Firesong
Treamayne Posted July 14, 2023 Posted July 14, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Firesong said: He actually said it was to make the planet look directly created and more artificial, but with an underlying pattern. So he did a 2-D cross-section of a 4D Julia Set. That is also true - which is why I linked to the Wikipedia pages on the mathematics. My other comment was why he chose the slice he chose. WoB: Spoiler BipedSnowman Does this [map of Roshar] look like a storm to anyone else? Brandon Sanderson I was searching for something that at once felt organic, but would hint at a pattern. (Much like cymatic patterns, as referenced in the first book.) Fractals and mathematical functions became my go-to place to hunt, as I like the blend of structure and spontaneity they can sometimes exhibit. The slice of the Julia Set was the one that stuck with me as feeling perfect for Roshar. As the continent was specifically grown by Adonalsium, you now know the seed that was used in-world to create it. The fact that it looked like a swirling cloud is part of this all--but also part of the connection between natural patterns and the underlying math, which is a primary theme of the Stormlight books. So yes, it SHOULD look like a storm--but for deeper reasons than you might assume 9 minutes ago, Firesong said: But we haven't ever seen what it truly looks like in-between 3 hours ago, Treamayne said: what moving between different planet's Shadesmars can be like Please note my original phrasing. I was just proving an example. Edited July 14, 2023 by Treamayne SPAG
Firesong she/her Posted July 14, 2023 Posted July 14, 2023 Just now, Treamayne said: That is also true - which is why I linked to the Wikipedia pages on the mathematics. My other comment was why he chose the clice he chose. WoB: Reveal hidden contents BipedSnowman Does this [map of Roshar] look like a storm to anyone else? Brandon Sanderson I was searching for something that at once felt organic, but would hint at a pattern. (Much like cymatic patterns, as referenced in the first book.) Fractals and mathematical functions became my go-to place to hunt, as I like the blend of structure and spontaneity they can sometimes exhibit. The slice of the Julia Set was the one that stuck with me as feeling perfect for Roshar. As the continent was specifically grown by Adonalsium, you now know the seed that was used in-world to create it. The fact that it looked like a swirling cloud is part of this all--but also part of the connection between natural patterns and the underlying math, which is a primary theme of the Stormlight books. So yes, it SHOULD look like a storm--but for deeper reasons than you might assume Please note my original phrasing. I was just proving an example. Ah, I see. I misunderstood, my apologies. 1
alder24 Posted July 14, 2023 Posted July 14, 2023 50 minutes ago, Firesong said: No, it is basically confirmed it isn't, as Yolen has been described as hidden by Silverlight people, and we know that the map is present in Silverlight. So I doubt that it is from Yolen. This doesn't disprove it. Yolen is hidden from CR, but stories or ancient star maps might be available to them and this could be a copy of that. 51 minutes ago, Firesong said: Secret History showed more like, the edge of the subastral, rather than the true in-between space. There isn't much more to it. In space there are no minds, therefore no place exists in CR. SH spoilers: Spoiler Kelsier already was in a place in between planets when visiting Ire, that's how it would look like for interstellar travel. Spoiler Questioner So like as far as distance traveled in Shadesmar. So when Kelsier is in Shadesmar, he meets the Ire, who are presumably Elantrians. How far did he travel? Is that still within Scadrial's realm of the Cognitive Realm? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, that's within-- By the time he meets them he has slipped right to the edge of the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and into, kind of, the darkness between planets. Questioner Okay. Brandon Sanderson He's close enough that he can get there. But he's kind of suffused with Scadrian Investiture then, to a point that it would be harder--you saw in there--for him to get further. I would say that he's like... He has entered space between planets, but he's not out of the solar system. Questioner Okay, so he's still in the Scadrian system, just not--just edging a bit there. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yep. That's what I'd say if I had to actually point him in that <a map>. It gets really fuzzy though, because it wouldn't be too much longer before he enters another solar system. Like, he would pass lightyears in steps as he starts getting further, if that makes any sense. Questioner That makes sense, because, I mean, with worldhopping in general it's like... You can only... I mean it's... I don't know how the time dilation works per se, but... Brandon Sanderson It's not-- there's not much time dilation. What you've got going on is... Things that people aren't around to think about, things without minds or any sort of life, don't manifest on Shadesmar very much at all. And so the space between planets gets really small, unless there's another planet out there with thinking beings or at least some sort of life on it. Like even lower lifeforms, you'll get something manifesting on Shadesmar. But yeah Questioner Okay. So the Cognitive Realm, in Shadesmar... It's kind of the... Any kind of sentient or cognitive life-- that's what is building Shadesmar? So like anything where there's blackness... is like... condensed or-- Brandon Sanderson Yes, yes. Particularly if no one's thinking about it. If people are thinking about it - like, for instance, an island in the ocean that was scoured of all life and even bacteria would still manifest in Shadesmar on that planet because people are aware of it and things like this. But one on the other side of the planet, that no one ever knew about it, probably wouldn't. Questioner So that same island, if people just stopped thinking about it or like stopped being aware of its presence, would it... Brandon Sanderson It could slowly vanish, yes. And so-- But that's more of a thought experiment. You're never gonna have a planet that that happens to, you know cause-- but thought experiment wise, yes, that would eventually kind of get consumed by Shadesmar and vanish. The same thing would happen to a planet that you strip the atmosphere from--all the bacteria and life dies on it--you know, slowly going to vanish. But a moon will still manifest because people are thinking about it. It'll just not-- it won't-- it'll be hokey, it'll be weird--the moon will be. Like you might find a little patch that represents the moon. Something like that. Questioner That's interesting. Brandon Sanderson You're not gonna find the full landscape of the moon until people start visiting it. And it's gonna grow on Shadesmar. White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)
Firesong she/her Posted July 14, 2023 Posted July 14, 2023 6 minutes ago, alder24 said: This doesn't disprove it. Yolen is hidden from CR, but stories or ancient star maps might be available to them and this could be a copy of that. There isn't much more to it. In space there are no minds, therefore no place exists in CR. SH spoilers: Hide contents Kelsier already was in a place in between planets when visiting Ire, that's how it would look like for interstellar travel. Hide contents Questioner So like as far as distance traveled in Shadesmar. So when Kelsier is in Shadesmar, he meets the Ire, who are presumably Elantrians. How far did he travel? Is that still within Scadrial's realm of the Cognitive Realm? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, that's within-- By the time he meets them he has slipped right to the edge of the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and into, kind of, the darkness between planets. Questioner Okay. Brandon Sanderson He's close enough that he can get there. But he's kind of suffused with Scadrian Investiture then, to a point that it would be harder--you saw in there--for him to get further. I would say that he's like... He has entered space between planets, but he's not out of the solar system. Questioner Okay, so he's still in the Scadrian system, just not--just edging a bit there. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yep. That's what I'd say if I had to actually point him in that <a map>. It gets really fuzzy though, because it wouldn't be too much longer before he enters another solar system. Like, he would pass lightyears in steps as he starts getting further, if that makes any sense. Questioner That makes sense, because, I mean, with worldhopping in general it's like... You can only... I mean it's... I don't know how the time dilation works per se, but... Brandon Sanderson It's not-- there's not much time dilation. What you've got going on is... Things that people aren't around to think about, things without minds or any sort of life, don't manifest on Shadesmar very much at all. And so the space between planets gets really small, unless there's another planet out there with thinking beings or at least some sort of life on it. Like even lower lifeforms, you'll get something manifesting on Shadesmar. But yeah Questioner Okay. So the Cognitive Realm, in Shadesmar... It's kind of the... Any kind of sentient or cognitive life-- that's what is building Shadesmar? So like anything where there's blackness... is like... condensed or-- Brandon Sanderson Yes, yes. Particularly if no one's thinking about it. If people are thinking about it - like, for instance, an island in the ocean that was scoured of all life and even bacteria would still manifest in Shadesmar on that planet because people are aware of it and things like this. But one on the other side of the planet, that no one ever knew about it, probably wouldn't. Questioner So that same island, if people just stopped thinking about it or like stopped being aware of its presence, would it... Brandon Sanderson It could slowly vanish, yes. And so-- But that's more of a thought experiment. You're never gonna have a planet that that happens to, you know cause-- but thought experiment wise, yes, that would eventually kind of get consumed by Shadesmar and vanish. The same thing would happen to a planet that you strip the atmosphere from--all the bacteria and life dies on it--you know, slowly going to vanish. But a moon will still manifest because people are thinking about it. It'll just not-- it won't-- it'll be hokey, it'll be weird--the moon will be. Like you might find a little patch that represents the moon. Something like that. Questioner That's interesting. Brandon Sanderson You're not gonna find the full landscape of the moon until people start visiting it. And it's gonna grow on Shadesmar. White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016) I do wonder what exactly that one transparent sea was, they were very clear to point out how strange it was, so I doubt it is just some normal CR fluid. 1
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