How to Kill Hoid (For Fun and Profit)

[MistbornMathematician]

The first question in undertaking such an operation must surely be "why", and for that I direct you to the title: fun and profit. The former comes from within and is therefore subjective, particularly when the victim is so lovable, but the latter should (hopefully) be made clear shortly. We will operate in the post-RoW timeframe, since we know the most about it on a Cosmere-wide scale.

Hoid is a fantastically resilient character, practically immune to any and all things "dangerous". That being said, he does have two very clear methods of being killed: Nightblood and Shards obliterating him. The former is the obvious choice in most cases, but it comes with two notable downsides. One, Hoid is very aware of the fact that Nightblood can kill him, and so would be on high alert should Nightblood be anywhere near him. Two, it comes with very little direct profit. There are quite a few entities that would likely be happy to see him gone, but unless you desperately want to be an avatar of Autonomy for some reason, I doubt the consequences would be worth it. The latter is probably the least feasible of all these methods, because it's what he's been doing for a long, long time at this point. He's got "legal" protection at the moment, and I'd imagine that few shards would be willing to risk themselves by annihilating him while he's out-of-bounds. 

So let's discuss less nuclear options. First, discombobulate! Hoid comes with a very significant weakness: much of his memory, including his short-term memory, is stored in Breaths (and possibly other forms of investiture). Destroying the Breaths destroys the memory, as we saw at the end of RoW, so any method of rapid investiture destruction is likely to leave him incredibly vulnerable. Confused and dazed at the very least, and unconscious at most depending on how much that investiture was doing. His Allomantic metals would be gone as well, as an added bonus. Larkins could work, but I bet they'd be too slow and too noticeable. Other methods (such as a theoretical Tone for Endowment or Raysium) could work, but likely would fail for the same reason. Allomantic leaching would be the intuitive choice, but I would propose duralumin-boosted leaching to be on the safe side. It'd be a shame to lose all of the knowledge and stories Hoid has accumulated over the centuries, but omelets and eggs and all. 

Now that Hoid has been properly disoriented, and then restrained, the simplest method of dispatching him could be an aluminum Hemalurgic spike. If it destroys investiture, it might just do the trick. But frankly, it's a long shot, since we know he can heal from Hemalurgic wounds, spiritweb and all. Besides, like with Nightblood, it's a waste to kill him right now, even if his body would give many interesting options. So what next? Well, if he heals from Hemalurgy, then why not make a production line of Hemalurgic spikes? Every Allomantic ability (Lerasium-strength, too!), the ability to store Breath, Yolish Lightweaving, perhaps even his superhuman strength or healing. Perhaps you could steal his Connection to the Dawnshard, or whatever the First Gem is. Who even knows what kind of use you could find for his Destiny. He seems pretty intelligent as well, so you could steal that over and over too. And he'd just keep healing, giving an effectively infinite source of high-grade Hemalurgic spikes. Herein lies the majority of the profit -- a Hemalurgic empire the Set could only dream of. Sure, you wouldn't want to use too many at once, but you generally wouldn't need to with how versatile Hoid's set of possible spikes would be. Everything that follows is made far, far easier with the resources this grants us.

But of course, our mission must continue. Stealing his Connection to the Dawnshard likely wouldn't work, but if you were to find a Bondsmith, they probably could do it. It's doubtful that Dalinar would agree to such a thing, Navani might not even be able to do the same sorts of things Dalinar can, and the Nightwatcher is too random, but Ishar's Honorblade is sitting right there. A Slider/Leacher or Steelrunner/Leacher combo would likely be the best for ambushing and disabling him, with a strike team of any reasonable potency there to finish the job. Killing him could mean the Honorblade goes back with him to Damnation, but a Hemalurgic spike to steal the Connection to the Honorblade would certainly do the job. 

If even a Bondsmith couldn't get the Dawnshard connection away from him, it's likely that a Forger couldn't mess with it either, and it might not be feasible to get an Elantrian to figure out a usable Aon for this, so then it's time to fight fire with fire: get a Dawnshard. The Change Dawnshard is out and about, though it's quite a stretch to say that anyone in-universe could figure this out who wouldn't be opposed to this sort of thing on principle. But if you were to kill Rysn, or otherwise obtain the Dawnshard, you still couldn't use it to Change Hoid (into ether not having the Connection to his Dawnshard or into being dead) without a whole lot of investiture. Easiest solution? Investiture compounding. Ideally, you'd find a Soulbearer, then give them nicrosil Allomancy for Compounding purposes. But how to do this without the "identity contamination" issue?

The easy way: find a Trueself who's willing to get spiked (or, even easier, find and spike a Trueself), give them a nicrosil Allomantic spike, then have them drain their Identity as you spike them to get an unkeyed nicrosil Allomancy spike. But if you don't have someone who's willing to give up their life for the cause (or live with soul damage through some kind of investiture-based healing), then there's:

The hard way: Get Lerasium. Kelsier definitely knows that Harmony and the Kandra are producing Lerasium to complement the Atium, so that'd be an in-world source for the knowledge. He'd probably be very happy with this plan, both because of the Hoid abuse and because of the "build an army of Allomancers" thing. With this wealth of Hemalurgic power, getting the Lerasium wouldn't be too much of a challenge, though you might have to burn some bridges and use brute force. 

The harder way: if you can Forge yourself into an Elantrian, you can Forge yourself (or another person) into a nicrosil Compounder with unkeyed investiture. This would probably take a very long time to work out, though, and if you were to try this, it'd probably be better to Forge yourself into a full Feruchemist through incredibly unlikely genetic lineages and then use the previous plan to get Lerasium and become the Lord Ruler 2.0. Of course, this requires a Soulforger to reforge you, and an extremely good one at that. And there's no telling what changes this could cause, since even if the backstory is "wow I never tried Feruchemy before now and I just discovered I'm a full Feruchemist", it might mess up other things in your personality, and it'd require regular restamping to still be that person with all that power. But at least, even if it only works for a moment, that's enough time to make a new Bands of Mourning for yourself to use later on.

Now that you've got infinite investiture from nicrosil Compounding, you can use the Change Dawnshard as you like and finally, 100% guarantied, kill Hoid. With your incredible wealth of spikes, your ability to properly wield a Dawnshard, and (potentially) access to Lerasium and/or a full Feruchemist/Mistborn combo, congrats, you're now probably the single most powerful person in the Cosmere. And all it cost was Hoid. 

[alder24]

4 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said:

But if you were to kill Rysn, or otherwise obtain the Dawnshard, you still couldn't use it to Change Hoid (into ether not having the Connection to his Dawnshard or into being dead) without a whole lot of investiture. Easiest solution? Investiture compounding. Ideally, you'd find a Soulbearer, then give them nicrosil Allomancy for Compounding purposes. But how to do this without the "identity contamination" issue?

You don't need Investiture compounding. Firstly, nicrosil stores the ability to use investiture, like Allomancy or Feruchemy, not investiture itself (as far as we know right now). Secondly you need only some invested art and a Dawnshard to use it - Dawnshard would do the work, it would supercharge the invested art. If a Bondsmith can't take away Hoid's connection to his Dawnshard, a Bondsmith with a Dawnshard would be able for sure. But I think Bondsmith unbound would be able to mess with Hoid. They are more dangerous than Nightblood is. 

Spoiler

Scott Beckman (paraphrased)

Which is scarier... Which is more dangerous: a sword that wants to destroy evil, or a Bondsmith with no bounds?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A Bondsmith with no bounds.

Scott Beckman (paraphrased)

Can an unbound Bondsmith take that sword's... ability for himself?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not exactly, but something similar. Probably not what you're thinking, but he could essentially take what that sword is, yes.

Miscellaneous 2022 (Sept. 17, 2022)

 

That's a fun and well thought idea. Very scary too, with this spike factory part. 

[The Stick]

I am not sure if this is actually possible, but maybe you could trap him in some weird area between realms if your collapsed a perpendicularity while he was inside of it?

[MistbornMathematician]

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

Firstly, nicrosil stores the ability to use investiture, like Allomancy or Feruchemy, not investiture itself (as far as we know right now).

I think that storing investiture itself is the mechanism behind storing the ability to use investiture -- I'm 90% sure that at some point it was even confirmed that you could store Stormlight and Breath in a nicrosilmind. I could admittedly be wrong, though, and it's rendered irrelevant as you said.

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

Secondly you need only some invested art and a Dawnshard to use it - Dawnshard would do the work, it would supercharge the invested art. If a Bondsmith can't take away Hoid's connection to his Dawnshard, a Bondsmith with a Dawnshard would be able for sure. But I think Bondsmith unbound would be able to mess with Hoid. They are more dangerous than Nightblood is. 

That is absolutely correct and something I didn't think of. I'd assumed that using a Dawnshard to boost an invested art (instead of using investiture to use the Dawnshard as its command) wouldn't be that useful, but boosting Bondsmith surgebinding would absolutely do the job way better. Plus, if the Bondsmith opens a Perpendicularity, it'd give infinite Investiture anyways, which would also be an easy way to use the Dawnshard as a Dawnshard. So you get the best of both worlds immediately after obtaining an Honorblade.

44 minutes ago, The Stick said:

I am not sure if this is actually possible, but maybe you could trap him in some weird area between realms if your collapsed a perpendicularity while he was inside of it?

But then you miss out on the spikes! Though, given what almost happened when using a corrupted Oathgate, that would likely be lethal, particularly if Nightblood is involved.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

2 hours ago, The Stick said:

I am not sure if this is actually possible, but maybe you could trap him in some weird area between realms if your collapsed a perpendicularity while he was inside of it?

We see what happens when you're standing in a collapsing Perpendicularity: nothing. Every time Dalinar stops holding open Honor's Perpendicularity, or the time Nightblood destroys it, it has no effect on Dalinar himself. Maybe it could affect him if Hoid was actively travelling through the Perpendicularitiy, but that's a very narrow time frame, and that would probably kill him more than trap him in null space. And like the OP said, you miss out on a Hemalurgy Empire.

Although (Yumi and the Nightmare Painter Spoilers)

Spoiler

Hoid has now employed so called "Security measures" in his Spiritweb, so you might be unable to Hemalurgically steal any of his abilities

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[alder24]

2 hours ago, The Stick said:

I am not sure if this is actually possible, but maybe you could trap him in some weird area between realms if your collapsed a perpendicularity while he was inside of it?

I don't think there is any "in between" realms. Collapsing perpendicularity might spit him out (because he isn't a part of it) or if it was done with Nightblood outright kill him. 

 

1 hour ago, MistbornMathematician said:

I think that storing investiture itself is the mechanism behind storing the ability to use investiture -- I'm 90% sure that at some point it was even confirmed that you could store Stormlight and Breath in a nicrosilmind. I could admittedly be wrong, though, and it's rendered irrelevant as you said.

No, it was never confirmed. Brandon always RAFO those questions. For now only abilities are storable and Divine Breath. No raw investiture.

1 hour ago, MistbornMathematician said:

Plus, if the Bondsmith opens a Perpendicularity, it'd give infinite Investiture anyways,

It isn't infinite.

Spoiler

Haylo_Alex

You've said before that Soulcasting can't create atium or lerasium which makes sense since they're made of Investiture from other Shards. But could a Soulcaster, perhaps in the proximity of Dalinar's perpendicularity, provide enough Stormlight to Soulcast something into Honor's Godmetal (tanavastium)? What about Cultivation's metal, or an alloy of both, like Shardblade metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So, creating a God Metal is not something that's done easily in the Cosmere. HOWEVER, it is possible. You'd need a ton of Investiture, and being near Dalinar's perpendicularity is unlikely to be enough. I'd say Soulcasting, or something akin to it, has the means to do this if it could obtain the proper power charge.

Footnote: The questioner is mentioning this WoB.
General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 4, 2020)

 

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Although (Yumi and the Nightmare Painter Spoilers)

That isn't a spoiler box! I'm simply furious! 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

 

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

That isn't a spoiler box! I'm simply furious! 

I am beyond stupid, thank you so much for the catch T-T. Hopefully, I haven't spoiled anything, though what I mentioned has next to no relevance to the plot at all, so it should be safe.

[MistbornMathematician]

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, it was never confirmed. Brandon always RAFO those questions. For now only abilities are storable and Divine Breath. No raw investiture

 

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It isn't infinite.

Ah, then I stand corrected! I wonder what compounding a Divine Breath would do, though -- it's far more discrete than invested abilities or investiture. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

2 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said:

I wonder what compounding a Divine Breath would do, though -- it's far more discrete than invested abilities or investiture. 

It still is Investiture, so you could Compound it and tap it for near-limitless Investiture. Compounding it would be patching Preservation's Investiture onto the Breath though, so it might change it's function.

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said:

I wonder what compounding a Divine Breath would do, though -- it's far more discrete than invested abilities or investiture. 

Yeah, me too. We don't even know what compounding Allomancy does, most likely it makes it stronger - Rashek's steel push on Vin got weaker after his metalminds were ripped off him and there is WoB which says there is a way to fuel Allomancy with Feruchemy, so it's likely this. Based on that I think compounding a Divine Breath would make it stronger (worth more Breaths), but it would still be considered as a single Breath in Awakening. You could get to the 10th Heightening with that but you won’t Awaken with it (or at least more than once if it isn't your Divine Breath).

 

17 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I am beyond stupid, thank you so much for the catch T-T. Hopefully, I haven't spoiled anything, though what I mentioned has next to no relevance to the plot at all, so it should be safe.

Thankfully I'm ok. At least you warned that it's SP3 spoiler, so I didn't read it. But I'm still angry! It's 4 days after book's release! 

[The Stick]

I don't think there is really null space. Maybe a collapsing perpendicularity would essentially split his body into the physical, Investiture into the spiritual, and Cognitive Shadow into the Cognitive. I think Dalinar is fine in a collapsing perpendicularity because he controls it and probably is safe from whatever consequences that entails. Maybe trap Hoid in massive Aluminum box with 40 foot thick walls and melt it around him?

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

3 hours ago, The Stick said:

I don't think there is really null space. Maybe a collapsing perpendicularity would essentially split his body into the physical, Investiture into the spiritual, and Cognitive Shadow into the Cognitive. I think Dalinar is fine in a collapsing perpendicularity because he controls it and probably is safe from whatever consequences that entails. Maybe trap Hoid in massive Aluminum box with 40 foot thick walls and melt it around him?

Ooh, death by aluminum roasting seems like it would work. You wouldn't need to trap him in a thick Aluminum box either, just one he can't break with Allomancy or Awakened-clothes-assisted punching, then pour molten aluminum from the top onto him. Once that gets done, just leave the metal to solidify and don't disturb it to check; he'd be forever trapped inside even if he somehow manages to live.

[Weaver of Lies]

Could he just Aon Tia out of it or would the aluminum stop that?

[MistbornMathematician]

On 7/5/2023 at 1:51 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Ooh, death by aluminum roasting seems like it would work.

I wouldn't put money on it killing him directly, but it would make for an excellent restraining option, immobilizing everything from his hands to his head if you just left his chest exposed for Hemalurgy purposes. Plus it would keep him entirely silent, which is good for minimizing the guilt you'd probably feel for your heinous actions.

2 hours ago, Lightweaver2 said:

Could he just Aon Tia out of it or would the aluminum stop that?

Unless he could draw them with his mind, which I don't believe can be done even with Yolish Lightweaving, I don't think Aons are much of an option even if this is post-Tress Hoid. 

[Weaver of Lies]

Sorry, I should have been more specific, I meant before the molten aluminum covers him.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

1 hour ago, Lightweaver2 said:

Sorry, I should have been more specific, I meant before the molten aluminum covers him.

Maybe, but he might not be able to make Aons function if he's not on Sel. Knowing him though, he'll have found a way around it, but I think the Aluminum should keep him trapped inside.

1 hour ago, MistbornMathematician said:

I wouldn't put money on it killing him directly, but it would make for an excellent restraining option, immobilizing everything from his hands to his head if you just left his chest exposed for Hemalurgy purposes. Plus it would keep him entirely silent, which is good for minimizing the guilt you'd probably feel for your heinous actions.

Unless he could draw them with his mind, which I don't believe can be done even with Yolish Lightweaving, I don't think Aons are much of an option even if this is post-Tress Hoid. 

It just might kill him, Aluminum near a wound prevents every form of healing that we know of. Leaving the chest exposed could work well for Hemalurgic purposes. I wouldn't worry about the guilt, though, Hoid is far more morally ambiguous than people give him credit for.

[MistbornMathematician]

On 7/8/2023 at 7:30 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Maybe, but he might not be able to make Aons function if he's not on Sel. Knowing him though, he'll have found a way around it, but I think the Aluminum should keep him trapped inside.

He'd definitely know how to do it -- he successfully used AonDor on a non-Sel planet almost the moment he became able to.

On 7/8/2023 at 7:30 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Aluminum near a wound prevents every form of healing that we know of. 

That is a very good point. 

On 7/8/2023 at 7:30 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I wouldn't worry about the guilt, though, Hoid is far more morally ambiguous than people give him credit for.

Oh he's certainly shifty all right, but he definitely is a likable fellow even if you absolutely shouldn't trust him.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

1 hour ago, MistbornMathematician said:

He'd definitely know how to do it -- he successfully used AonDor on a non-Sel planet almost the moment he became able to.

I don't doubt he would, but his use of it on Lumar isn't remarkable. Riina had set ups station there, she'd have arranged for Dor to be there on her Spaceship.

Quote

Oh he's certainly shifty all right, but he definitely is a likable fellow even if you absolutely shouldn't trust him.

likeable is far from justified. Ted Bundy was likeable too, right up until people realised hed been a serial killer the entire time.

Quote

Questioner

Whats up with Hoid? He's not a Shard. Is he good? Evil? Indifferent? I'm starting to question whats going on with him.

Brandon Sanderson

He has his own unique motivations. There are definitely people who would call him good and definitely people who would call him evil. He was around at the Shattering of Adonalsium but is not a Shardholder or a Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/90/#e4624

 

 

Quote

Link6112

Where would you place Hoid on this scale: http://i.imgur.com/z9fwRP2.jpg

If you have time, where would you place the other characters of your books on this?

Brandon Sanderson

Though I do like the D&D system conceptually--I think it leads to interesting discussions--one of the problems is that by putting a character into it, I would be making a value judgement upon their actions. Here's what I can say: If you asked Hoid himself, he'd probably say he was Neutral Good. The Sixteenth shard would argue that he's Chaotic Neutral. Frost would rationally argue him to be Chaotic Good, but there are those who even claim his motives far too selfish to be anywhere near "good," and probably deem him something akin to Neutral Evil.

WeiryWriter

Sixteenth Shard? Is this just a typo or a really stealthy dispensation of information?

Brandon Sanderson

Sorry. Just a typo.

Footnote: The scale linked is the Dungeons and Dragons alignment chart.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3485

There are more quotes that I can't find right now, but Hoid isn't doing what he does in the name of good. He has a specific purpose, and will do what he can to achieve that purpose. He says himself that he would let everyone on Roshar die if it meant his goals would be furthered. He's willing to sacrifice Roshar, condemn it to eternal conflict if necessary, if it means Odium remains chained to the system. Given this philosophy of his, and how long he's been alive, I have no doubt in my mind that he'll have done horrific things in the past because it's necessary for his goals.

Sure, he might be a morally good character sometimes. He helps a random girl in the rubble of Kholinar for no reason, giving up some Breaths to do so. But it's actions like those (along with his affable nature) that make the fandom a bit biased against thinking of him as an evil character. The ends do not justify the means for me, so I find Hoid's friendly nature sinister more than anything.

He reminds me a bit of Kelsier. A character that's good because he helps the protagonists, but could easily be evil in different circumstances, if the characters didn't align with what he wants to do.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[MistbornMathematician]

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

likeable is far from justified. Ted Bundy was likeable too, right up until people realised hed been a serial killer the entire time.

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Hoid was actually a serial killer, arranging "accidents" and such since he can't directly harm people. He certainly seems to enjoy beating Kesier up, and the jump from "I wish I could still hurt people" to "but wait, I still can" isn't a far one. The only issue with that theory, however, is the lack of suspicious deaths and accidents wherever he goes. I feel like if he was killing people, we'd have hints of that by now. Only thing I can think of is the water tower at Wax and Steris' wedding, which it's conceivable that Hoid could've had a hand in. 

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

He reminds me a bit of Kelsier. A character that's good because he helps the protagonists, but could easily be evil in different circumstances, if the characters didn't align with what he wants to do.

Similar to Denth, I believe -- a Kelsier-like individual that did indeed become pretty much evil.