Simultaneous Hemalurgy

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

One of the first things I thought of when HoA said that Ruin preferred not to kill Mistborn because the rest of their abilities got wasted was "What if you spike them twice at the same time?". I had assumed that, like everything, the answer would come eventually, if not in the text then at least in WoBs, and once I couldn't find the answer in there, I assumed I'd see it discussed on the Shard, which to my knowledge it hasn't been. There's no chance I'm the only one who thought of this, but I can't find any mentions of it anywhere. What happens if you spike someone simultaneously with two spikes, aiming to get two different powers? Say two very skilled Hemalurgists get their hands on a Twinborn who has A-Steel and F-Cadmium. For the sake of argument, let's assume that the stealing bind point for F-Cadmium is in the abdomen. If, completely and supernaturally in sync, the two Hemalurgists pound spikes through the Twinborn, looking to steal both powers, can they actually get both powers, or will only one be stolen at random? Or, will they disrupt each other and no power will be gained at all? If you can steal more than one power this way, how many powers could you reasonably steal from a Mistborn or Full Feruchemist? 1 from each quadrant?

And again, I have trouble believing I'm the only person who's thought of this, so if you know of any other threads discussing this, I'd love to see them.

[Treamayne]

49 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

One of the first things I thought of when HoA said that Ruin preferred not to kill Mistborn because the rest of their abilities got wasted

Do you mean this epigraph from HoA Ch 72?

Spoiler

Of course, this did give us a slight advantage, at the end. Ruin had a lot of trouble giving duralumin to his Inquisitors, since they'd need an Allomancer who could burn it to kill before they could use it. And, since none of the duralumin Mistings in the world knew about their power, they didn't burn it and reveal themselves to Ruin. That left most Inquisitors without the power of duralumin, save in a few important cases—such as Marsh—where they got it from a Mistborn. This was usually considered a waste, for if one killed a Mistborn with Hemalurgy, one could draw out only one of their sixteen powers and lost the rest. Ruin considered it much better to try to subvert them and gain access to all of their power.

Keep in mind, this is Sazed, as an unreliable narrator relating an edited version of events for the Words of Founding. We have no evidence that Ruin actuallly thought that way - only TLR. In Fact, evidence from the way the Feruchemists were hunted and turned into spikes implies Ruin was fine with wasting (ruining) abilities to make a single spike.

Quote

was "What if you spike them twice at the same time?". I had assumed that, like everything, the answer would come eventually, if not in the text then at least in WoBs, and once I couldn't find the answer in there, I assumed I'd see it discussed on the Shard, which to my knowledge it hasn't been. There's no chance I'm the only one who thought of this, but I can't find any mentions of it anywhere. What happens if you spike someone simultaneously with two spikes, aiming to get two different powers? Say two very skilled Hemalurgists get their hands on a Twinborn who has A-Steel and F-Cadmium. For the sake of argument, let's assume that the stealing bind point for F-Cadmium is in the abdomen. If, completely and supernaturally in sync, the two Hemalurgists pound spikes through the Twinborn, looking to steal both powers, can they actually get both powers, or will only one be stolen at random? Or, will they disrupt each other and no power will be gained at all? If you can steal more than one power this way, how many powers could you reasonably steal from a Mistborn or Full Feruchemist? 1 from each quadrant?

And again, I have trouble believing I'm the only person who's thought of this, so if you know of any other threads discussing this, I'd love to see them.

The only known WoB on the subject, so far:

Spoiler

Aerlion

Is it possible to use Hemalurgic spikes to steal multiple attributes from the same person?

Brandon Sanderson

No. At least, this isn't thought to be possible

Of course, the way that is worded leaves room for possibilities. It was also noted in the Coppermind:

Spoiler

Creating a Hemalurgic charge requires physical injury, and generally results in the death of the victim.^[12] It is possible, however, to charge a spike without killing the target,^[13][14] in which case they would be left in a similar spiritual condition to a Drab, but in a worse condition.^[15][16] In order to charge a spike without killing the victim, one must have the proper Intent, a very thin spike, and to speak a Command (although this step is not strictly necessary).

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Do you mean this epigraph from HoA Ch 72?

  Reveal hidden contents

Of course, this did give us a slight advantage, at the end. Ruin had a lot of trouble giving duralumin to his Inquisitors, since they'd need an Allomancer who could burn it to kill before they could use it. And, since none of the duralumin Mistings in the world knew about their power, they didn't burn it and reveal themselves to Ruin. That left most Inquisitors without the power of duralumin, save in a few important cases—such as Marsh—where they got it from a Mistborn. This was usually considered a waste, for if one killed a Mistborn with Hemalurgy, one could draw out only one of their sixteen powers and lost the rest. Ruin considered it much better to try to subvert them and gain access to all of their power.

Keep in mind, this is Sazed, as an unreliable narrator relating an edited version of events for the Words of Founding. We have no evidence that Ruin actuallly thought that way - only TLR. In Fact, evidence from the way the Feruchemists were hunted and turned into spikes implies Ruin was fine with wasting (ruining) abilities to make a single spike.

That was indeed the epigraph I was talking about, and I see where you're coming from. A case could be made for why Ruin would prefer not to kill battle-trained Mistborn while the pacifist, submissive Terris were too docile to be of any real value outside of their powers, only some of which were ever useful to him. However, in the end it doesn't really matter what Ruin's motivations were, since we're talking about the mechanics of Hemalurgy.

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

The only known WoB on the subject, so far:

  Hide contents

Aerlion

Is it possible to use Hemalurgic spikes to steal multiple attributes from the same person?

Brandon Sanderson

No. At least, this isn't thought to be possible

I always read that WoB as whether or not you could spike and kill someone a single time, while taking all of their powers. Like H-Lerasium, but powers instead of abilities. I suppose it could refer to spiking someone multiple times through non-fatal spiking, but what I'm interested in is what would happen if I Hemalurgy-stabbed someone twice at the same time. Since we're apparently at the end of what we know canonically, guess it's it's brainstorming time. What do you think will happen if two Hemalurgists spike someone at the same time, like I outlined in the original post? 

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

One of the first things I thought of when HoA said that Ruin preferred not to kill Mistborn because the rest of their abilities got wasted was "What if you spike them twice at the same time?". I had assumed that, like everything, the answer would come eventually, if not in the text then at least in WoBs, and once I couldn't find the answer in there, I assumed I'd see it discussed on the Shard, which to my knowledge it hasn't been. There's no chance I'm the only one who thought of this, but I can't find any mentions of it anywhere. What happens if you spike someone simultaneously with two spikes, aiming to get two different powers? Say two very skilled Hemalurgists get their hands on a Twinborn who has A-Steel and F-Cadmium. For the sake of argument, let's assume that the stealing bind point for F-Cadmium is in the abdomen. If, completely and supernaturally in sync, the two Hemalurgists pound spikes through the Twinborn, looking to steal both powers, can they actually get both powers, or will only one be stolen at random? Or, will they disrupt each other and no power will be gained at all? If you can steal more than one power this way, how many powers could you reasonably steal from a Mistborn or Full Feruchemist? 1 from each quadrant?

And again, I have trouble believing I'm the only person who's thought of this, so if you know of any other threads discussing this, I'd love to see them.

I don't think that's possible because all powers are stolen through the heart and this kills the donor. Either you would have to fit two spikes in the same binding point in the heart (not possible), or two spikes very close to each other aiming at two different binding points at the heart - depending on powers you want to steal. And you need to time it perfectly, as when a person dies, his spirit is separated from the body, so if one spike goes just milliseconds behind the first deadly spike, it won't steal anything as there is no soul anymore. It's impossible to time it perfectly. If you manage to do that it might work, but also their intents might mess them both up and would make some messy situation (they both want to rip off almost the same piece of the soul, connection to Preservation, and this might mess things up). 

A better way to do this would be to learn to steal powers without killing the victim and then spiking him again to steal something more. 

Spoiler

yulerule

Can you reuse a spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Uh, yes, technically, but not as easily as that question makes it sound.

yulerule

Can you re-use it if it's for the same exact thing or for a different thing? Will that change?

Brandon Sanderson

Spikes are going to get keyed by Identity--

yulerule

So you can't already spike that person. But if you spike and don't kill them can you spike the same person again?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah and if you can somehow strip the identity of the person or the spike-- So yes you can use them again but it comes into a sort of-- Like, you can't just take that spike and spike somebody else.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

So, since I was doing other things.  Hemalurgy-when you spike, you place the spike in a place that determines which charge the spike gets.  

Kythis

Through the heart seems to pick up universally.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on where in the heart. It's like acupuncture. This was designed from acupuncture and you get very specific on which nerve you're hitting and things like that

Kythis

So the spike will never pick up more than one power.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, the way they know how to do it.

Footnote: This clarifies two previous questions.
Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

 

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I always read that WoB as whether or not you could spike and kill someone a single time, while taking all of their powers. Like H-Lerasium, but powers instead of abilities.

For me this WoB is about stealing more than 1 power with a single spike at the same time - like can you spike a Mistborn and steal both A-steel and A-pewter with a single spike and a single spiking.

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I always read that WoB as whether or not you could spike and kill someone a single time, while taking all of their powers. Like H-Lerasium,

25 minutes ago, alder24 said:

For me this WoB is about stealing more than 1 power with a single spike at the same time - like can you spike a Mistborn and steal both A-steel and A-pewter with a single spike and a single spiking.

I think the portion of the WoB most relevant to this conversation is that "spikes" is plural. So, disregarding interpretation, the WoB is already about two or more spikes. Wether that means two or more hemalurgists. . .?

 

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think that's possible because all powers are stolen through the heart and this kills the donor. Either you would have to fit two spikes in the same binding point in the heart (not possible), or two spikes very close to each other aiming at two different binding points at the heart - depending on powers you want to steal. And you need to time it perfectly, as when a person dies, his spirit is separated from the body, so if one spike goes just milliseconds behind the first deadly spike, it won't steal anything as there is no soul anymore. It's impossible to time it perfectly. If you manage to do that it might work, but also their intents might mess them both up and would make some messy situation (they both want to rip off almost the same piece of the soul, connection to Preservation, and this might mess things up).

The thought experiment is assuming that they're perfectly in sync. I hadn't considered the bind points being the same, but surely there are some powers that aren't stolen specifically from the heart? The human body has around 2 to 3 hundred bind points, do none of them but the heart matter when you're stealing powers? I had assumed the heart thing was specifically about some powers only, but looking back it does seem like you need to drive the spike specifically through the heart for all powers.

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

A better way to do this would be to learn to steal powers without killing the victim and then spiking him again to steal something more.

Does the victim die immediately? Because if they remain alive for even a little while afterwards, you could maybe spike another power out. Either way, spiking a surviving victim probably is the better way, but I just want to know about Simultaneous Hemalurgic spiking.

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

For me this WoB is about stealing more than 1 power with a single spike at the same time - like can you spike a Mistborn and steal both A-steel and A-pewter with a single spike and a single spiking.

Is that not the same thing? I guess there could be a limit on how many powers you can steal in a single spike (all sixteen might be a stretch), but surely more than one?

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I think the portion of the WoB most relevant to this conversation is that "spikes" is plural. So, disregarding interpretation, the WoB is already about two or more spikes. Wether that means two or more hemalurgists. . .?

The wording is ambiguous enough that it could be either one.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The thought experiment is assuming that they're perfectly in sync.

Then I think yes. But practically it's impossible. 

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I hadn't considered the bind points being the same, but surely there are some powers that aren't stolen specifically from the heart?

Everything we know of is stolen through the heart, only raw investiture isn't. But there are different binding points in the heart, like 4 I think.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Does the victim die immediately? Because if they remain alive for even a little while afterwards, you could maybe spike another power out. Either way, spiking a surviving victim probably is the better way, but I just want to know about Simultaneous Hemalurgic spiking.

Because Kelsier almost immediately felt a ripping sensation right as he was slapped in the face by TLR, I would say that yes, a spike through the heart kills immediately. There isn't enough time to spike again.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Is that not the same thing? I guess there could be a limit on how many powers you can steal in a single spike (all sixteen might be a stretch), but surely more than one?

A spike can hold more than one power (WoB I've posted), and I think you can steal more than one power with a single spike with a single process. And it's different from what you propose, because you spike a person one time with one spike and get multiple powers in that spike. 

I personally believe that a single spike for stealing Allomancy/Feruchemy should be able to steal all 4 powers from a given quadrant.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

 

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Everything we know of is stolen through the heart, only raw investiture isn't. But there are different binding points in the heart, like 4 I think.

How do you differentiate what you want? Can Intent specify the power you want to that degree, considering you can steal all sorts of things other than just the main 32 powers?

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Because Kelsier almost immediately felt a ripping sensation right as he was slapped in the face by TLR, I would say that yes, a spike through the heart kills immediately. There isn't enough time to spike again.

I don't know if Kelsier is a good model, because you can still bring a person back to life after they technically die through Regrowth (and presumably other Investiture Healing like Divine Breaths), so at least some Connection remains. Outside of that, Kelsier got hit by the Lord Ruler in a way that smashes the left side of his face in. His brain probably got crushed, and his neck also likely broke, so he'd have died instantly (as far as Cognition is concerned). Hemalurgy kills through a heart wound, so you could maybe squeeze in another spike right after if you do it quickly enough.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

A spike can hold more than one power (WoB I've posted), and I think you can steal more than one power with a single spike with a single process. And it's different from what you propose, because you spike a person one time with one spike and get multiple powers in that spike.

My bad if I wasn't clear, but that's what I was saying. Separate from what I made this thread about, I was saying that WoB made me think there was a way to steal more than one power in a single spike by spiking a single time, as you're saying. I originally just assumed it would steal all available powers someone had, but your idea of stealing the respective quadrant seems more balanced and realistic.

[alder24]

Just now, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

How do you differentiate what you want? Can Intent specify the power you want to that degree, considering you can steal all sorts of things other than just the main 32 powers?

You need to aim for a proper binding point. Heart is still big so there are no problems with that. If you chose a wrong spot you might steal something else despite your correct intent:

Spoiler

Questioner

My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So you want to place the spike in a specific place.

Questioner

In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor.

Brandon Sanderson

In the recipient. And you want to use the specific metal and so basically if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family. Some of those, that's not as big a deal, but for some it is kind of a big deal. And so you want to be very precise, you'll get something, but if you're not placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place, then you risk it.

Questioner

You risk stealing the wrong thing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Now if you're going off of somebody who's not a Mistborn, you can be a little more flexible, but you still have the danger that you're not going to end up stealing the power, you're going to steal something else. So, precision is advisable, how about that?

Questioner

Yeah. Because the question was kind of specifically about, like, we know that atium spikes can kill-- can steal pretty much any power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You want to be super precise with your atium spike.

Questioner

So, part of the question was like, exactly, if you just killed a Mistborn, you stab a Mistborn in the heart with an atium spike, and you're not placing it immediately--

Brandon Sanderson

What do you end up with? You are rolling the dice, let's say. Not as big a roll of the dice as you might think, but you still are. You might not get what you want.

Questioner

And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

3 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I don't know if Kelsier is a good model, because you can still bring a person back to life after they technically die through Regrowth (and presumably other Investiture Healing like Divine Breaths), so at least some Connection remains.

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

You can bring somebody back only because their soul hasn't left for the Beyond yet. That's what happened with Szeth - he died, his soul was disconnected from the body but it didn't leave so it was reconnected.

The same happened with Wax - Harmony said his soul was disconnected from his body in BoM.

 

14 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I don't know if Kelsier is a good model, because you can still bring a person back to life after they technically die through Regrowth (and presumably other Investiture Healing like Divine Breaths), so at least some Connection remains. Outside of that, Kelsier got hit by the Lord Ruler in a way that smashes the left side of his face in. His brain probably got crushed, and his neck also likely broke, so he'd have died instantly (as far as Cognition is concerned). Hemalurgy kills through a heart wound, so you could maybe squeeze in another spike right after if you do it quickly enough.

I don't think so. Death works a bit differently than in our world. I think a soul is separated with a clinical death (as Wax and SA examples proves) but it can get reconnected as long as it didn't leave CR. But with Hemalurgy it's even different - it causes direct damage to the soul and as seen in SA, enough of it causes immediate death with the soul being instantly separated from its body.

This is what is happening with Hemalurgy, enough damage to the soul caused by a single spike instantly separates a soul from its body. There is no way of spiking something else because there is no soul anymore. You need to either learn how to steal more than one power with a single spike or how to steal less "trashy" soul parts, lessening the damage done to the soul while still getting your power (for example parts of identity are stolen with a spike, you don't need it). If you manage to make the soul and the body survive a spiking even for a little while, you can repeat it.